Sun wukong/Journey to the west CRT

[Greatsage13th]

So since Sun wukong's profile is Hakai'd this CRT will be made to recreate and refine his profile with only feats and statements shown in the novel JTTW with no other outside sources

here is wukong's feats and abilities found in the novel JTTW

overwrite his current profile with Udlmaster's proposal of sunwukong while also add his old abilities to the new profile Resistance to Immortality , resistance and durability negation ETC


He should have beyond dimensional existence type 1 and immortality type 9 when he gains buddhahood where the buddha states that their true forms exist beyond time itself.

sunwukong should be given large type 10 or 9 scaling to the buddha in buddhahood whom's palm held all of creation including the infinite dragon realms and space-time as well as viewing it as a piece of a fictional page which should make him low 1C

there is a possibility that wukong won't be bound by spatial temporal dimensions as he would be above all dual systems that are infinite in the verse which might include dimensions as one of the values in the dual system

Wukong's mid-godly regeneration in udlmaster's profile should be changed to high godly since the eight trigram furnace is a conceptual idea/construct that created the pills of immortality which was used to melt wukong into pills and wukong regenerated from it and should have resistances to Fate or plot manipulation since in buddhahood he would exist outside the wheel of reincarnation which even type 5 immortals are bound to in the verse

 

[Greatsage13th]

hmmm....

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew_Schroeder @Penguinkingpin @Amelia_Lonelyheart @Niarobi @The_real_cal_howard @TheLuffyPlayer @Kepekley23 @ThePerpetual @Monarch_Laciel @The_Archdemon @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Crimson_Azoth @CinnabarManx421 @Creaturemaster971 @Roachman40 @Udlmaster @Edenstar

Are any of you willing to help out here?

 

[Antvasima]

@Mariogoods

Your help would also be appreciated here.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

wait wha he got deleted?

 

[Greatsage13th]

yes but now we are going to recreate it with a new CRT fresh from the flesh

 

[CinnabarManx421]

I’m unaware as to why I’ve been summoned here I don’t know anything about this verse or character.

 

[Greatsage13th]

@Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan

So....I know this is off topic but. Can you calc a specific feat from another verse

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Using "Daoist Cosmologies" out of tale is very iffy. As for those "infinite powers", they seem awful hyperbolic compliments (same way as he refers to his ability to turn into 72 different forms to "I have mastered infinite forms!" with a little paraphrasing on my end there). It's not like he used his infinite powers in any of those situation, and being flowery when describing people you refer to in a flattering way isn't exactly new. Some more proof for High 3-A would be needed, same way as the mountains he lifted appearing to not be major parts of the universe and instead just regular mountains.

Depending the statement of the Dragon Gods creating the Dragon Realms, it could not be needed.

That Mid-Godly Regen needs more proof. The fact that he can single handedly overpower most people means that they may very well not be able to do whatever they'd need to do to erase him. Plus, you'd need to directly reference the ability in Heaven that would be able to completely erase his body and soul alike.

Something more than simple naming would need to prove that the gods and such are abstract and non-physical. One can be god of west and east without being the literal direction.

You should add a space after the "49 days" in powers and Abilities section.

Some more explaination of his fight with the mighty miracle God would be appreciated, I guess? It could be, say, that the chance of the Miracle God winning is none due to the sheer difference in power between the two.

That spatial manipulation would need proof that the points of the compass are literally just that.

Conceptual manipulation would need a type, and explaination for how or why it works.

That resistance to space and reality warping is a bit redundant with NEP.

In the durability section, the "One with all things" should be closed parenthesis.

 

[Greatsage13th]

When faced with the choice between good and evil he might do either.
If he is good he becomes a Buddha or an Immortal,
If bad, he grows fur and horns.
With his boundless transformations he wrecked the Heavenly palace,
Nor can thunder generals and divine troops take him.

If you try to ask about the dhyana
Or investigate the innumerable
You will waste your life and achieve nothing.
Polishing bricks to make mirrors,
Or piling up snow to turn it into grain—
However many years have you wasted like that?
A hair can contain an ocean,
A mustard-seed can hold a mountain,
And the golden Kasyapa only smiles.
When you are awakened you will surpass the Ten Stages and the Three Vehicles,
And stop the four kinds of birth and the six types of reincarnation.
Who has ever heard, before the cliff of thoughts extinguished,
Under the tree that has no shadow,
The sound of the cuckoo in a spring dawn?
The path by the Cao Stream is dangerous,
The Vulture Peak is high in the clouds:
Here the voice of the ancients was a mystery.
On a cliff ten thousand feet high
Five-leaved lotuses bloom
As scent coils round the shutters of the old palace.
At that time
Your knowledge smashes all the currents of thought;
The Dragon King and the Three Treasures can be seen.


“With my deep insight
I surveyed the Three Worlds.
The origin of nature
Is ultimately emptiness,
Like the great void,
Containing nothing at all.
The subjection of this evil monkey
Was a mystery beyond understanding.
It is called the beginning of life and death:
Such is the appearance of things.

Propitious vapours filled Paradise,
Rainbows surround the Venerable One.
The Western Paradise, known as the best,
Is ruled by the dharma King of non-phenomenon.
Black apes are always offering fruit,
Deer hold flowers in their mouths;
Blue phoenixes dance,
Coloured birds call;
Sacred turtles offer long life,
Immortal cranes present magic mushrooms.
Here they peacefully enjoy the Pure Land of the Jetavana Park,
The infinite realms of the Dragon Palace.
Every day flowers bloom,
Fruit is always ripe.
Through practicing silence they return to the truth,
Achieving reality by contemplation.
There is no birth nor death;
They neither wax nor wane.
Mists follow them as they come and go;
Untouched by heat or cold, they do not notice the years.

 

[Udlmaster]

there’s dozens of statements, it’s hardly hyperbolic when it’s done more than once.

The very fact that they can interact with conceptual beings and the souls of being (Underworld Gods) just shows any damage they deal would deal damage on that level, so any regen would be High-Godly.

 

[Greatsage13th]

There's also enough proof for 2A to low 1C so why High 3A is out of the question?

 

[Udlmaster]

I myself am not sure of Low 1-C, but I think High 3-A is absolutely without any shadow of a doubt.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I myself am not sure of Low 1-C, but I think High 3-A is absolutely without any shadow of a doubt.

Buddhahood wukong should scale to buddha's large size type 10 and should also scale to Buddha viewing all of creation as a infinitesimal disk on his palm

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

While I don't request for a plain destruction feat, none of the quotes are much of any proof for High 3-A. 2-A and maybe Low 2-C sure, but not High 3-A.

And to what was the void part responding to? Because that it no way claimed that Sun Wukong would be erased to become nothing, so that would not work for Mid-Godly.

If it was meant for him being able to hit non-existent people, that's fine, but you can't equate that to interacting with all the other stuff.

Being able to kill nonexistent beings is in no way proof that you render anything you kill nonexistent, for the same reason as being able to hit ghosts was revised to not alow to strike souls in people with physical bodies. You need direct proof for that. Even being able to kill an abstract being, does not mean that you kill an enemy's concept when fighting a non-abstract being.

 

[Antvasima]

Just a note to check out our current Mythology page for further information about our current standards.

@Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)

Are you willing to help out as well?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Practically he can interact with NEP TYPE 2 and kill abstract existence type 1 beings. But when he obtained buddhahood he has transdualism type 2 and NEP type 2

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Practically he can interact with NEP TYPE 2 and kill abstract existence type 1 beings. But when he obtained buddhahood he has transdualism type 2 and NEP type 2

That is fine.
I am in doubt about other things though. Like Mid-Godly, or High-Godly as suggested.

Being able to interact with any of those does not mean you erase someone from existence with every hit, at all. And, I feel that the enemies he kills ceasing to exist on a fundamental level would be brought up more obviously, if it happened every time he fought.

Likewise, he himself doesn't get every destroyed on a conceptual level before buddhahood, and he did not regenerate in that case.

 

[Greatsage13th]

He regenerated from being destroyed on a conceptual level by the eight trigram furnace

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

He regenerated from being destroyed on a conceptual level by the eight trigram furnace

Mind giving the quote for that though?

 

[Greatsage13th]

When he reached the Tushita Palace, Lord Lao Zi had the Great Sage untied, took the hook from his collar-bone, pushed him into the Eight Trigrams Furnace, and ordered the priests in charge of it and the fire-boys to fan the fire up to refine him. Now this furnace was made up of the Eight Trigrams—Qian, Kan, Gen, Zhen, Sun, Li, Kun, and Dui—so he squeezed himself into the “Palace of Sun,” as Sun was the wind, and where there was wind there could be no fire.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That... is nowhere near enough to assume conceptual destruction.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

You know, you should at least include the part where he is destroyed and regenerates, instead of ending it on him going to a part where supposedly there could not be a flame, for one.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Those 8 things are the concepts involved in the creation of the eight trigram furnace

 

[Greatsage13th]

Time soon passed, and without him realizing it the seven times seven, or forty-nine, days had passed, and Lord Lao Zi’s fire had reached the required temperature and burned for long enough. One day the furnace was opened for the elixir to be taken out. The Great Sage, who was shielding his eyes with both hands and wiping away his tears, heard a noise at the top of the furnace. He looked hard and saw daylight; and, unable to stand being in there a moment longer, leapt out of the furnace, kicked it over with a crash, and was off.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Those 8 things are the concepts involved in the creation of the eight trigram furnace

That means nothing.

First of all, using "concepts" to create abilities ain't special by default. Even Voldemort did it for his magic, using symbolism and such. You'd first of all need to prove that the staements refers to the basic concepts that make up reality, instead of something that stands for them.

Next, even if it uses concepts to be made, that does not mean it destroys concepts at all. Being refined into a pill is the antithesis of ceasing to exist to begin with...

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Time soon passed, and without him realizing it the seven times seven, or forty-nine, days had passed, and Lord Lao Zi’s fire had reached the required temperature and burned for long enough. One day the furnace was opened for the elixir to be taken out. The Great Sage, who was shielding his eyes with both hands and wiping away his tears, heard a noise at the top of the furnace. He looked hard and saw daylight; and, unable to stand being in there a moment longer, leapt out of the furnace, kicked it over with a crash, and was off.

So... he did not regenerate, either. He specifically goes to a part where the fire cannot be, and at no point is he described being destroyed and regenerating. If the sun part was not there, and the above was proven, that would just be resistance to existence erasure.

If that's what you have for it, then no, you'll need some other feats.

 

[Nepuko]

How is he High-Godly btw?? I see no proof of that regen or him coming back from such a degree of harm anywhere on the thread. All I see is him hiding in a place of the furnace where the fire can't reach him, and going out when it finishes. That's it.

Edit : basically what ricsi said.

 

[Greatsage13th]

The furnace has no blind spots and if it's not regenaration high godly then it's still resistance to concept and existence erasure

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The furnace has no blind spots and if it's not regenaration high godly then it's still resistance to concept and existence erasure

You are saying that, but I don't see much proof there.

First of all, no blind spots: —so he squeezed himself into the “Palace of Sun,” as Sun was the wind, and where there was wind there could be no fire.

Secondly, as I said, listing of ideas and themes for something is not enough for conceptual manip. All the way from Voldemort to every xianxia ever, concepts and such are constantly referenced. But just because someone mentions them, you don't get conceptual manipulation.

Even if it is, being made of a concept does not mean it affects the concept of someone.

Even if it did, it would not be existence erasure, but transmutation.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah I'm with Ricsi.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I'm with Risci aswell.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Guess only Buddhahood wukong has the resistance and High Godly treatment but not when he is the Great sage equal to heaven

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

So, the remaining questions would be...

Why High 3-A? Is there a reason that plain 2-A wouldn't work (especially by taking the higher tier interpretation of the originally oral tale)?

The specifics of the Miracle God fight.

And the points of the compass being literally that, instead of physical manifestations or deities with those titles.

 

[Greatsage13th]

So, the remaining questions would be...

Why High 3-A? Is there a reason that plain 2-A wouldn't work (especially by taking the higher tier interpretation of the originally oral tale)?

The specifics of the Miracle God fight.

And the points of the compass being literally that, instead of physical manifestations or deities with those titles.

High 3A is for the statement where wukong states he wields infinite power

Mighty Miracle god is the god of luck who was beaten by wukong despite the latters powers being passive an could redirect all misfortunes , disasters and fate from causing harm to him

The points of the compass is abstract in nature and was never shown to have any physical form or otherwise

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I'll repeat the second part of the question...
Is there a reason that plain 2-A wouldn't work (especially by taking the higher tier interpretation of the originally oral tale)?

Not to be too distrustful, but could I get those statements too?

That is... abstract in nature based on what? Their name? Did they even appear in more than a throwaway line? Several deities have shapes, often humanoid, despite being the deities of non-humanoid objects or concepts, so a name alone is far from enough.

 

[Zaratthustra]

High 3-A comes from statements of Wukong having infinite power but having infinite power doesn't translate to infinite striking power. Also, Milky Way being infinite comes from Daoism and scriptures, not from Journey to the West even if it's based on it.

2-A comes from the realms of the Dragon King Palace...which I'm not sure if they refer to full universes.

Here they peacefully enjoy the Pure Land of the Jetavana Park, The infinite realms of the Dragon Palace. Every day flowers bloom, Fruit is always ripe. Through practicing silence they return to the truth, Achieving reality by contemplation. There is no birth nor death; They neither wax nor wane. Mists follow them as they come and go;Untouched by heat or cold, they do not notice the years.

 

[Greatsage13th]

The heavenly general was a master of magic;
Endless were the changes the Monkey King could make.
When the cudgel was raised it was like a dragon playing in the water;
As the axe came down it was a phoenix among the flowers.
Although the fame of Miracle was known throughout the world,
His skill was no match for his enemy.
If the Great Sage lightly twirled his club,
A mere touch would paralyze.

The Mighty Miracle God was no match for his opponent. He hastened to block the Monkey King’s first blow with his axe, which broke in two with a crunch. He fled for his life as fast as he could, and the Monkey King said mockingly, “You bag of pus, I’ll spare you this time. Hurry back with my message, and look sharp about it.”

The Mighty Miracle God returned to his camp, went straight to the Pagoda-bearing Heavenly King Li Jing, knelt before him, and said with an awkward laugh, “The Protector of the Horses has really tremendous magic powers. I was no match for him. He beat me, and now I have come to take my punishment.”

I may have misinterpreted. he only redirects Probabilities and not fate itself while wukong's prescence caused fate itself to turn tail.

A gusty sandstorm blotted out the heavens,
Purple fog threw the earth into darkness.
Just because the monkey fiend offended the Supreme Emperor
Heavenly hosts were sent down to the mortal dust.
The Four Great Heavenly Kings,
The Revealers of the Truth of the Five Regions.
The Four Great Heavenly Kings held the supreme command,
And the Revealers controlled the soldiers’ movements.
Li the Pagoda Carrier commanded the central corps,
Nezha the deadly led the van.
The star Rahu ordered the leading rands,
And the star Ketu towered behind.
The Sun revealed his divinity,
And radiance shone from the Moon.
The stars of the Five Elements were mighty in valour,
And the Nine Bright Shiners were fond of battle.
The stars of the Branches Zi, Wu, Mao and You,
Were all great heavenly warriors.
The Five Plagues and the Five Mountains were drawn up on the East and West,
While the Six Ding and Six Jia marched to right and left.
The Dragon Gods of the Four Rivers stood above and below,
And the Twenty-eight Constellations were drawn up in serried ranks:
Horn, Gullet, Base, and Chamber were the officers commanding,
Strider, Harvester, Stomach, and Mane wheeled and soared;
Dipper, Ox, Woman, Barrens, Roof, House, and Wall, Heart, Tail, and
Winnower—all able stars—
Well, Ghost, Willow, Spread, Whig and Axletree
Wielded their swords and spears, showed forth their power,
Halted their clouds and descended in mists to the mortal world,
Pitching camp before the Mountain of Flowers and Fruit.
There is a poem that runs:
Many the transformations of the heaven-born Monkey King
Happy in his lair after stealing the pills and wine.
Just because he wrecked the banquet of peaches,
A hundred thousand heavenly troops now spread their nets.

there were no proof of most of them being physical beings but more of conceptual or abstract in nature just like Qian, Kan, Gen, Zhen, Sun, Li, Kun, and Dui

 

[Greatsage13th]

High 3-A comes from statements of Wukong having infinite power but having infinite power doesn't translate to infinite striking power. Also, Milky Way being infinite comes from Daoism and scriptures, not from Journey to the West even if it's based on it.

2-A comes from the realms of the Dragon King Palace...which I'm not sure if they refer to full universes.

Here they peacefully enjoy the Pure Land of the Jetavana Park, The infinite realms of the Dragon Palace. Every day flowers bloom, Fruit is always ripe. Through practicing silence they return to the truth, Achieving reality by contemplation. There is no birth nor death; They neither wax nor wane. Mists follow them as they come and go;Untouched by heat or cold, they do not notice the years.

the infinite realms of the dragon palace has there own individual space time

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

You know, you really need proof for claims... it doesn't work like "there is no proof they aren't".
Ketu and The Sun are not the same (if highlighting those two was for that reason), and those statements do not mean they are literal stars. Their main weaponry was swords and spears, and they could pitch camps. That's not something two balls of light can do.

Likewise, as I just said, all of that is not abstract in nature until proven so. Just listing of their name, does not mean they are concepts. In fact, I am working on a profile right now from Er Gen where signs are listed the very same way as they are in the journey to the west, but more in depth. When showing ☵, it then goes on to extrapolate how the dude summons all water in the whole realm. But, I still do not rate is as conceptual or any such thing.
For the same reason that Voldemort sticking to magical numbers and symbolism doesn't mean his immortality is conceptual.
Don't take me for a downer, but writing "heaven, earth, thunder, wind, water, fire, mountain, and lake" does not make something conceptual by default.

Also, as with most other things, you need to prove they are full on space-times.