Sun Wukong downgrade

[Faisal_Shourov]

Note: This is not my research, all credit goes to DonatelloRawks on Comicvine. I will quote what he said down below

"I've read the beginning of the novel a bit again (Its Chinese New Year, the year of the Monkey), and I finally understood why are people saying that Sun Wukong "held up the galaxy" with his magic staff. Its still completely wrong, but at least now I can see how did the wrong idea came about.

I've updated the list of feats for Sun Wukong (See spoilers tag): Amongst the edits include the fact that the novel DID mention that the magic staff had "held up the milky way". As I had explained earlier on, this changes nothing. Please understand the context.

• Firstly, for the ancient Chinese it is referring to the Heavenly River, which again as I had mentioned, knows nothing about the actual Milky Way. Besides, the magic staff's subsequent feats never match up to anywhere near planet level.
• Secondly, even IF that was true, its still technically not a feat of Sun Wukong because he never actually used the staff to hold up the milky way. As mentioned in the first point, Sun Wukong's feats with the magic staff are below planet level.
• Finally, I am only interpreting the novel literally, which is not appropriate because it is full of metaphors and hyperbole (A beautiful expression of the Chinese language), so by the "more accurate literal interpretation", the magic staff holding up the heavenly river is already a hyperbole itself.

Here is a simple compilation of Wukong's best feats, with references to source - an actual translated version of the 16th century Chinese novel:

Source: http://www.chine-informations.com/fichiers/jourwest.pdf

• Wukong's best FIGHTING feats were his wrecking havoc on Heaven. Page 72 to 74 saw him forcing back the 100,000 troops of Heaven with his multiple clones magic trick. Page 87 to 90 saw him freed from Lao Zi's cauldron and he started his rampage on heaven, where he was forced into a corner. Notice that the 100,000 troops of heaven were feat-less other than they were "fighting fiercely". None of these feats suggested him threatening the universe, galaxy, or even planet.
• Wukong's best DESTRUCTIVE feat was busting a mountain. Page 207 sees him doing that to free himself after Buddha's magic imprisonment seal was released.
• Sun Wukong's Regenerationn CAPABILITY was shown in page 643 to 645: He can regrow his head and can sew up his own stomach at will after cutting it open.
• Wukong's best battle-relevant MAGIC TRICK was his size-changing. Page 848-849 shows Sun Wukong and the Bull Demon King grew to extreme sizes and clashes with each other, which draws the attention of the Taoist pantheon. Notice that there is still nothing stated of him beyond mountain/country-busting.
• Wukong's weapon of choice is the magic staff, which can also grow and shrink at will. It weighs less than 10 tons, as described in page 41. Page 41-42 also shows that Wukong grew into, depending on the translation, a 100,000 feet or 10,000 feet tall giant, with his magic staff also growing to touch heaven and hell, which is literally the earth and the sky. Notice that there's nothing stated of any feat spanning the planet/galaxy/universe. The concept of the modern universe is completely foreign to the author of Journey to the West.
  • There indeed is a mention of the magic staff being able to "hold up the Milky Way" in page 39. HOWEVER, please understand the context. For the ancient Chinese it is referring to the Heavenly River, which again as I had mentioned, knows nothing about the actual Milky Way. Besides, the magic staff's subsequent feats never match up to anywhere near planet level.
• Wukong wasn't omnipotent at all: Amongst Wukong's many problems he faced which he alone can't solve, was the Red Boy. He was overwhelmed by the Red Boy's magical fires in Page 570-572. Returning for a second round nearly killed him, as seen in Page 575-577. This is consistent with the novel's portrayal of Sun Wukong having regular trouble against earth-bound demons who aren't even planet-level.
• Another event that obviously demonstrates that Wukong isn't planet level was that he was pinned down by the weight of 3 mountains. Read Page 464 to 466. If his hax was that good why did he ask for help from the mountain gods to free him?
• There are even more adventures that the monkey god went through, but all those feats are of his great fighting abilities and use of quick wits, not his magic hax.

In short, none of Wukong's feats put him anywhere close to planet level or beyond.

Also, Sun Wukong never held up the galaxy with his magic staff. He never busted a galaxy, he never busted a star, he never even busted a planet. There was never any mention of a universe that we understand in our context today. The novel has never said that. He doesn't have the feats for that."

Link: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/bat...t-superman-577677/?page=3#js-message-16232828

I would appreciate opinion of any admin/mod who's knowledgeable on Journey to the West

 

[ThePerpetual]

Hmmm. Here's a question... if they know nothing about the Milky Way, why call the Heavenly River that? What exactly is the Heavenly River? Why isn't Wukong able to use the powers of the weapon he wields?

 

[Aurasuke]

Misty clouds scattered colours, Sun and moon shimmered bright. A thousand ancient cypresses, Ten thousand lofty bamboos. A thousand ancient cypresses, A soft green drawing the rain from the sky. Ten thousand lofty bamboos, And a misty valley is azure blue. Outside the gate rare flowers spread brocade; Beside the bridge wafts the scent of jade flowers. Rocky crags jut, glossy with green moss; Journey to the West Chapter 1 17 On overhanging cliffs blue lichen grows. Sometimes the call of the crane is heard And often you see the phoenix soar. The call of the crane Echoes beyond the Ninth Heaven and the Milky Way. When the phoenix soars, The brilliance of its wings colours the clouds. Black apes and white deer can be just made out; Golden lions and jade elephants prefer to keep hidden. If you look closely at this happy land, You will see that it rivals paradise.

http://www.chine-informations.com/fichiers/jourwest.pdf

They do mention heaven and stars in the translation. I suppose it's a matter of interpreting heaven as higher dimensional space, regular space, or simply the sky, but there is a problem with either.

There is some proof that shows the sky isn't just regular heaven as apparently a day in heaven is a year on earth or so the saying goes. It's a bit hard to quantify really and there are mentions of gods of constellations.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Even if it's only the visible heavens, would that not be Multi-Solar System or so?

 

[Yojimbo1989]

Sorry, but this guy failed to actually research the Chinese myths behind Journey to the West. The Heavenly river IS the Milky Way. The Legend says that Jade Emperor created the Milky Way by creating a river across the sky. To the mortal realm it is still the Milky Way galaxy.

Wukong's staff was capable of reaching this from Earth and it is deemed powerful enough to be considered a threat by some of the highest authorities in Taoist mythology.

Wukong didn't just defeat 100,000 heavenly soldiers, he also beat the physical embodiement of 28 constellations, which is a stellar to galactic level feat.

Also Wukong was deemed at full power to be a legitimate threat to both the Jade Emperor and the Three Pure Ones who are the creators of the universe in Toaist mythology.

Not to mention that the Buddha is omnipotent and Wukong still survived being crushed under his hand.

As for several of the times that he was in trouble on the journey, that can be attributed to magical hax, since in the case of the mountains they could only be removed by magic not physical strength.

 

[FuaadMohamoud]

in multiple pieces of chinese literature the miky way is refered to the heavenly river

 

[FuaadMohamoud]

Plus this downgrade will only affect sun wukong before buddhahood

 

[FuaadMohamoud]

Sorry, but this guy failed to actually research the Chinese myths behind Journey to the West. The Heavenly river IS the Milky Way. The Legend says that Jade Emperor created the Milky Way by creating a river across the sky. To the mortal realm it is still the Milky Way galaxy.
Wukong's staff was capable of reaching this from Earth and it is deemed powerful enough to be considered a threat by some of the highest authorities in Taoist mythology.

Wukong didn't just defeat 100,000 heavenly soldiers, he also beat the physical embodiement of 28 constellations, which is a stellar to galactic level feat.

Also Wukong was deemed at full power to be a legitimate threat to both the Jade Emperor and the Three Pure Ones who are the creators of the universe in Toaist mythology.

Not to mention that the Buddha is omnipotent and Wukong still survived being crushed under his hand.

As for several of the times that he was in trouble on the journey, that can be attributed to magical hax, since in the case of the mountains they could only be removed by magic not physical strength.

^ooops someone already mentioned the miky way bit, also this

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Thanks for your comment Yojimbo1989

 

[ThePerpetual]

I suppose this settles the matter, then?

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

^Not yet, we still need admins and mods to compare Yojimbo1989 and Donatelloworks' conflicting opinions. Also Donatello has made proper references with page numbers, that's quite important

 

[Yojimbo1989]

I can also do the same as I have read all 100 chapters of Journey to the West give me time to look up both the page numbers and also hunt down some links to Taoist mythology.

 

[FuaadMohamoud]

Hes the Great Sage equaling Heaven from Asain Myths. He Soloed Heaven himself including taking out 100,000 heavenly soldiers, taking out the Celestial Kingdoms including their strongest generals, went into Hell, beat quite a bit of demons, and erased his name from the book of death. It took Buddha to stop him .Buddha imprisoned him under several mountains with a 5 elements seal which negated suns powers. When the seal was removed, he easily busted out of those mountains. He also had his head decapicitated and easily survived that and it also got back on him. He even grew a head back one point in the series. He also got burned in the 8 trigrams furnace for 49 days (Which in heaven, 1 day = a year on earth) and the flames that the Furnace burns are as hot as the Sun itself. His fighting skill is also unmatched in the series. Here are his powers that i've seen in the series:


FTL Reflexes (Jumped across Buddhas Hand which was the size of the entire Universe in seconds and could react to things at that speed)

Accelerated and Regenerative Healing Factor (Can even regenerate lost body parts including a head)

Invulnerability

Can Leap 180,000 Miles in 1 bound

Immortality

72 Lives (In rare cases should he die. Like to the samadhi fire)

Transformation/Shapeshifting

Flight

Can fly on clouds or on the wind

Astral Projection

Magic

Teleportation

Can Summon Armys of Monkeys (Lawl)

Can Control Wind to a certain extent

Can Breath Fire out of his mouth

Can Conjure Protective circles against Demons (To trap them in them or to keep them out)

Can alter the course of stars

Can transform a strand of his hair into anything

Size manipulation (Can grow or shrink)

Can see through Lies, Deception, and Evil

Can Freeze Time

His weapon is the Magical Golden Staff (weight variable .), which can Multiply, change its size (To as small as keeping it in his ear or to the size that holded up a galaxy), and respond to sun's thoughts and does whatever he wants it to do.

 

[FuaadMohamoud]

And did he not become nigh omnipotent at the end of the epic?

 

[Yojimbo1989]

And did he not become nigh omnipotent at the end of the epic?

Yes, he ascended to Buddahood and should therefore be at least as powerful as the Buddha

 

[FuaadMohamoud]

Is not the buddha the TOAA of chinese myths(Lao Tzu)

 

[Yojimbo1989]

Is not the buddha the TOAA of chinese myths(Lao Tzu)

Mmmm, that's partially true, the highest authorities in Chinese mythology are the Three Pure Ones and the Buddha, really they would be the equivalent of TOAA depending on whether one follows Taoist or Buddhist methods, but the Buddha is still protrayed as being on the same level as the Three Pure Ones

 

[FuaadMohamoud]

^yep

 

[DontTalk]

Hmm... I am generally willing to believe Sun wukong held up the milky way and treat it as a proper galaxy. Wether the author knew what that meant or not shouldn't be so increadibly important, in my opinion, given that I also doubt that many other authors actually have an proper idea of what their feats actually equal to in detail....

But just to note it again (in case not all have read the other thread), when it comes to ranking the entities, characters and abilities please just use what the novel itself states and describes. Please do not rank it by what you would get from interpreting the story by the means of the religion, the background of religious characters appearing and religious storys/descriptions referenced, but not explained.

 

[FuaadMohamoud]

So now it seems to be decided to not downgrade sun wukong (their seems to be alot of sun wukong discussions recently.

 

[UncleSpaceman]

Yes, he ascended to Buddahood and should therefore be at least as powerful as the Buddha

I thought Sun Wukong became a "Fo" at the end of the story. "Fo" translates as beyond Buddhahood. Hence Sun Wukong transcended even the Buddha.

 

[Aurasuke]

Yes, he ascended to Buddahood and should therefore be at least as powerful as the Buddha

I thought Sun Wukong became a "Fo" at the end of the story. "Fo" translates as beyond Buddhahood.

Well yeh technically yes

 

[FuaadMohamoud]

Yes, he ascended to Buddahood and should therefore be at least as powerful as the Buddha

I thought Sun Wukong became a "Fo" at the end of the story. "Fo" translates as beyond Buddhahood. Hence Sun Wukong transcended even the Buddha.

Well sometimes Fo just means buddha it does not only mean surpassed buddha

 

[FuaadMohamoud]

The word Buddha in Sanskrit was translated as õ¢øÚÖÇÞÇÂ in Chinese. The Chinese like simplicity, as a result, only the first word "fo" was used to refer to Buddha. Buddha, or Fo, means an enlighten being - A person who understands the true nature of life and the universe.

 

[Aurasuke]

Yes, he ascended to Buddahood and should therefore be at least as powerful as the Buddha

I thought Sun Wukong became a "Fo" at the end of the story. "Fo" translates as beyond Buddhahood. Hence Sun Wukong transcended even the Buddha.

Well sometimes Fo just means buddha it does not only mean surpassed buddha
What what I heard Fo is either the masters of the Buddha or the ones that surpass them. I suppose it's because lesser Buddha had helped son in his journey to the west such as putting out flames that cannot be put out or something like that.

 

[Yojimbo1989]

Hmm... I am generally willing to believe Sun wukong held up the milky way and treat it as a proper galaxy. Wether the author knew what that meant or not shouldn't be so increadibly important, in my opinion, given that I also doubt that many other authors actually have an proper idea of what their feats actually equal to in detail....
But just to note it again (in case not all have read the other thread), when it comes to ranking the entities, characters and abilities please just use what the novel itself states and describes. Please do not rank it by what you would get from interpreting the story by the means of the religion, the background of religious characters appearing and religious storys/descriptions referenced, but not explained.

To clarify the novel Journey to the West was based on the various myths and legends and teachings of both Taoism & Buddism, hence anything said about the characters (like the Jade Emperor) in any kind of story first based in either Taoism or Buddhism should logically apply to Journey to the West as well

 

[FuaadMohamoud]

Hmm... I am generally willing to believe Sun wukong held up the milky way and treat it as a proper galaxy. Wether the author knew what that meant or not shouldn't be so increadibly important, in my opinion, given that I also doubt that many other authors actually have an proper idea of what their feats actually equal to in detail....
But just to note it again (in case not all have read the other thread), when it comes to ranking the entities, characters and abilities please just use what the novel itself states and describes. Please do not rank it by what you would get from interpreting the story by the means of the religion, the background of religious characters appearing and religious storys/descriptions referenced, but not explained.

To clarify the novel Journey to the West was based on the various myths and legends and teachings of both Taoism & Buddism, hence anything said about the characters (like the Jade Emperor) in any kind of story first based in either Taoism or Buddhism should logically apply to Journey to the West as well

^I have already argued that fact in another thread

 

[DontTalk]

To clarify the novel Journey to the West was based on the various myths and legends and teachings of both Taoism & Buddism, hence anything said about the characters (like the Jade Emperor) in any kind of story first based in either Taoism or Buddhism should logically apply to Journey to the West as well

To quote myself from the thread before:

"The thing is we technically have a rule on this side which prohibits content involving modern religions. That is, because it is highly controversial, depends on interpretation and the active practioners can quite legitimately disagree with them being listed on a page for ranking fictional characters. Additionally we also judge many other forms of deities appearing in related materials just after what they showed there. For example disneys interpretation of Zeus is also supposed to be actually zeus, but feats wise only what disney actually showed are his feats.

Because of all that I feel like there isn't a reason to make an exception here. Quiet on the contrary, I believe its best to practice this standard here as well and only go with their powers and abilities as far as the story in question demostrated them."

Additionally I may add that such an practice is basically just cleverly circumventing the no modern religions rule, as one basically just takes the religious content and all implication and relates them exactly like that to characters.

 

[FuaadMohamoud]

^their is two much interpretations some people think that sun wukong somersaulted out to infinity while some say he only went the length of the universe

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with DontTalk. We can only go by what was shown or specified in the story, and claiming that Sun Wukong is a tier 0 without any thorough in-story explanations about that his fundamental nature reaches such vast heights is technically a ban-worthy offense, but I will let it slide this time.

 

[Antvasima]

Regardless, since this topic seems to have been settled at no downgrade, should I close it now?

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

I agree with DontTalk. We can only go by what was shown or specified in the story, and claiming that Sun Wukong is a tier 0 without any thorough in-story explanations about that his fundamental nature reaches such vast heights is technically a ban-worthy offense, but I will let it slide this time.

Who claimed Sun Wukong is tier 0? Is there a thread for it?

 

[Aurasuke]

Basically they kind of used NLF^

 

[Antvasima]

@Faisal Didn't Yojimbo compare him with TOAA?

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

@Faisal Didn't Yojimbo compare him with TOAA?

Oh you're talking about this one. I dont think he compared Sun Wukong to TOAA, he said Sun survived being crushed by Buddha. As for comparing Buddha to TOAA, I think he meant as a supreme Authority (not tier 0)

So what do you think, should Sun Wukong be downgraded or no? Basically what I understood from Donttalk is that we should take words from ancient fiction literally, not based on our own interpretation of religion. Such as Milky Way should be treated as Milky Way, whether their (ancient Chinese) understanding of Milky Way is different from ours. Please correct me if I'm wrong

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we did not do so when gauging the power of mythological Zeus. We strictly went with the scale from how the ancient Greeks viewed the universe, so to be consistent, it might be best if we do the same with Sun Wukong. I sincerely doubt that the ancient Chinese had concepts for 4-dimensional infinity for example, which is how Wukong is currently rated, if I don't misremember.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

I see, well I guess a downgrade might be in order as DontatelloRawks pointed out. What do you think Sun Wukong's tier should be then?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Perhaps High 3-A would be appropriate, then? Based on what I've read here, that is.

 

[Antvasima]

Did the ancient Chinese view the universe as infinite in size? If so, then yes, I suppose that High 3-A might be appropriate. If not, we have a bit of a problem.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Perhaps High 3-A would be appropriate, then? Based on what I've read here, that is.

What I read from Donatello's writing, it appears Sun Wukong doesn't even have a proper planet busting feat in the novel, and is probably powerscaled from other characters. His major argument was

Also, Sun Wukong never held up the galaxy with his magic staff. He never busted a galaxy, he never busted a star, he never even busted a planet. There was never any mention of a universe that we understand in our context today. The novel has never said that. He doesn't have the feats for that.

Hmmm