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Summoners and Tamer's Issue

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Yeah, the OP can decide if certain summons are out beforehand at will, same way they can give prep time to let the summoner summon. Still shouldn't be default.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
No they don't. People usually just specify 3-A, Low 2-C, or whatever and Goku starts the match out in the form that makes him that tier.
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Thanks for proving my point!
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But I really didnt? Unless you meant specifying the tier = specifying the form he starts with. Then nvm.
 
I'd say default to not pre summoned, but let it be an option for OPs. Kinda like optional equipment in a way. That's also nice for people like Glaistig Uaine (yet again) who have like 80 distinct people to use.
 
I honestly see both sides though.

But overall I agree with Kukui, because I don't see it as a big deal to not have summoners be targeted tbh.
 
I will also add that in SBA, certain accommodations can be made to have the fairest fight.

If the summon needs to be already out to have a fair fight in the first place, this is already granted as per SBA.

However, if the summon provides an instant win and it's fairer to make the summoner actually waste time summoning it, SBA makes it so.

If neither of those scenarios can be met and the opponent wins no matter what, that's a stomp.
 
Yeah but I dont see the point in it being optional. If specifying the tier = specifying the form a character starts a match out with, it should also specify the summon they start out with since the summon, in this case, is the "form".
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
I will also add that in SBA, certain accommodations can be made to have the fairest fight.
If the summon needs to be already out to have a fair fight in the first place, this is already granted as per SBA.

However, if the summon provides an instant win and it's fairer to make the summoner actually waste time summoning it, SBA makes it so.

If neither of those scenarios can be met and the opponent wins no matter what, that's a stomp.
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Okay this i'll actually agree with. If the summon brought an insta win, it obviously shouldnt be out before the battling begins for obvious reasons.
 
YungManzi said:
I honestly see both sides though.

But overall I agree with Kukui, because I don't see it as a big deal to not have summoners be targeted tbh.
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You should bother to answer the problems brought up. Any character capable of attacking and movement is fighting capable, be it tier 10, 9 or 7.

People with infinite summons are practically immortal.

People whose weakness is being targeted over their summon get a big advantage.

And so on.
 
YungManzi said:
If one has to resort to such tactics, it's probably not a fair fight anyway.
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What?

Being underhanded is not grounds for not making a fight. We are not making fights between two honorful knights.
 
YungManzi said:
I honestly see both sides though.
But overall I agree with Kukui, because I don't see it as a big deal to not have summoners be targeted tbh.
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I see it as a problem if they can summon multiple things are once. Typically in a battle like that the strategy would be to stop tghe source of the issue, ie. what is doing the summoning. In that case it becomes an unfair advantage to the summoner.
 
Is it really so unfair to target the source of your woes though, are weirdos like glaistig uaine impossible to make fair fights with though she probably is but for unrelated reasons

"Yeah but I dont see the point in it being optional. If specifying the tier = specifying the form a character starts a match out with, it should also specify the summon they start out with since the summon, in this case, is the "form"."

Eh, this isn't always possible. People with limits on the number of summons they can do at once but they have more than that at a specific tier come to mind. Just make OP specify and default to not imo, though this isn't as big an issue. I don't think getting a dual result from SBA works the greatest.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Okay this i'll actually agree with. If the summon brought an insta win, it obviously shouldnt be out before the battling begins for obvious reasons.
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That just puts even more rules. Summons are far more like higher tiered attacks or items, since the summoner does not change in tier, which means it's not automatically on.

Seriously, I don't think people will break their fingers needing to write "Pikachi is out already".
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
What?

Being underhanded is not grounds for not making a fight. We are not making fights between two honorful knights.
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Yup, like I said above battles are not inherently meant to be fair. That being said we should nothand a unfair advantage to one side that they wont have normally.
 
Yes but the summon is what is makes the Tamer the tier they are in at the end of the day. Without the summon, they have no tier. So if you specify the form a character starts as by specifying the tier, the same should go for the summoned being.

If anything isn't too much of an effort to do, its having the summon be out already to make both sides battle ready.
 
"What?

Being underhanded is not grounds for not making a fight. We are not making fights between two honorful knights."

@Ricsi

I geniunely don't understand what you're trying to say here Ricsi.

My point was that the match shouldn't be made if the opponent can't even fight the summon straight up. Which is a problem on its own.
 
"Yup, like I said above battles are not inherently meant to be fair. That being said we should nothand a unfair advantage to one side that they wont have normally."

Except, battles on versus battles ARE made to be fair. If they aren't people generally don't make them, unless they're trolling, hate a certain character, or are ignorant of some things regarding a character.
 
If i say a dude has a 9-B gun that doesn't mean they've already drawn it and aimed.

Again, defaulting to being out causes issues with people limited in the number of their summons, and with people who summon reactively.


@YungManzi he meant that it isn't really important as to whether or not it's a "true win", since people were saying it isn't a "true win" if you have to resort to those tactics. Lotta dudes don't fight fair.

"My point was that the match shouldn't be made if the opponent can't even fight the summon straight up. Which is a problem on its own."

Why not? They're made against the summoner for a reason.
 
Im also not liking the argument of "fights don't need to be fair so screw any suggestions"

Just because its not a priority to make a fight 100% fair doesnt mean we also shouldnt do anything to prevent one side from getting an advantage or a disadvantage.
 
Of course it doesnt because holding a weapon automatically makes you battle ready. Taking it out and using the weapon is something to do once the fight begins. Thats not the same thing as summons.
 
"Just because its not a priority to make a fight 100% fair doesnt mean we also shouldnt do anything to prevent one side from getting an advantage or a disadvantage."

Yeah it does. How are we going to have a debate if nobody has advantages or disadvantages? The entire point is arguing over who's advantages are superior and who's disadvantages are the least crushing.

"Of course it doesnt because holding a weapon automatically makes you battle ready. Taking it out and using the weapon is something to do once the fight begins. Thats not the same thing as summons."

I'm about as able to kill somebody with a gun in a holster as I am with an unopened pokeball. I gotta actually use my weapon first, in both cases. Also thought based summoners.

Actually i think an unopened pokeball would be easier because I can beat someone to death but can't really hip thrust them to death
 
>Yeah it does. How are we going to have a debate if nobody has advantages or disadvantages? The entire point is arguing over who's advantages are superior and who's disadvantages are the least crushing.

Unfair advantages/disadvantages is what I meant here.

>I'm about as able to kill somebody with a gun in a holster as I am with an unopened pokeball.

The difference is the gun is already out and ready to be used for battle. Whatever pokemon you use to fight in a certain tier isnt.
 
" he meant that it isn't really important as to whether or not it's a "true win", since people were saying it isn't a "true win" if you have to resort to those tactics. Lotta dudes don't fight fair."

That wasn't my point though, which is where my confusion came in at. I don't mean "fair" in like a storied context, I mean in a meta context.

It's not fair to have a battles where a character can't defeat a summon so they target the summoner.
 
The gun isnt already out if it's in a holster...

Why is this unfair though, and why does it even need to be this type of fair in the first place
 
YungManzi said:
" he meant that it isn't really important as to whether or not it's a "true win", since people were saying it isn't a "true win" if you have to resort to those tactics. Lotta dudes don't fight fair."

That wasn't my point though, which is where my confusion came in at. I don't mean "fair" in like a storied context, I mean in a meta context.

It's not fair to have a battles where a character can't defeat a summon so they target the summoner.
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I don't see how it's not fair, it's a tactical decision. The summon can still end up blocking for the summoner.
 
Yes it is? Its not stored away or needs to be called into battle, its already in battle with you. You literally just have to reach for it.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Unfair advantages/disadvantages is what I meant here.
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But your suggestion kinda gives the summoner an unfair advantage, especially if they have multiple summons. As in the original suggestion. I personally think that as said above summons should be specified.
 
@Rocker

I'm talking about it's not fair for the person opposing the summoner. If you can't win against a summoner without killing the summoner directly, it's a stomp against you.
 
All you gotta do with a pokeball is reach for it and click the open button

All you gotta do with a gun is reach for it, aim, and shoot
 
YungManzi said:
@Rocker

I'm talking about it's not fair for the person oppoasing the summoner. If you can't win against a summoner without killing the summoner directly, it's a stomp against you.
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Oh I agree then. Though if you are capable of killing the summoner(an assassin type character for example) then it could still be a fair fight.
 
The swordsman without any ranged options can be range spammed.

The marksman can get shredded in melee if he sucks there.

The summoner can get ****** over if his summons don't protect him well enough and the opponent is smart enough to aim for them.

Fighting styles have weaknesses. This is common sense, this is how it works. Making everyone play under the same rules isn't "unfair".

This is dumb, to be blunt.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
The swordsman without any ranged options can be range spammed.
The marksman can get shredded in melee if he sucks there.

The summoner can get ****** over if his summons don't protect him well enough and the opponent is smart enough to aim for them.

Fighting styles have weaknesses. This is common sense, this is how it works. Making everyone play under the same rules isn't "unfair".

This is dumb, to be blunt.
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Ditto squared.
 
It's not really a stomp against you once you've killed the summoner, since that's who the fight is against.
 
And you know, wait for the pokemon to materialize and be ready for battle. And even then this isn't specifically just pokemon. Bladers need to get their bey launchers and launch their beys into battle, Bakugan Brawlers need to set a Gate Card, reach for the bakugan they want and throw them into battle. Duelists need to outright summon a monster to where they are.

My point is the gun is already on their person, which already fits the "battle ready" standard. The former doesn't.
 
Gotta wait for the bullet to hit your target, especially when dudes out here dodging.

The thing used to summon absolutely fits battle ready some things just take different amounts of time. Not all summoners are even slow, Glaistig Uaine does it by thinking for example. Should I let Ahzek Ahrima start every fight with his most powerful enchantments already cast because they take a while? It would certainly make him more battle ready.
 
Wokistan said:
It's not really a stomp against you once you've killed the summoner, since that's who the fight is against.
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But the fight isn't really against the summoner per-se. It's against the summons under the summoner more often than not.

Which makes this whole thing very confusing.
 
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