Summoners and Tamer's Issue

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

More battle ready is different since thats just an additional enhancement that isn't needed. And certainly isnt the same as having something at all to make you considered battle ready in the first place.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Summons taking time is not an argument. Pulling a gun and aiming takes time. Shouting a spell takes time. An ability taking time to use is not an argument, and neither is that one takes more time than another.

This gets dumber and dumber. Being a summoner has inherent dangers, big surprise, but so does other fighting styles. And said danger is bigger and lesser depending how your summoning works. Bigger surprise, characters are different and some are much more efficient. Is not our problem, is the character's problem to account for.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Summons taking time is not an argument. Pulling a gun and aiming takes time. Shouting a spell takes time. An ability taking time to use is not an argument, and neither is that one takes more time than another.
This gets dumber and dumber. Being a summoner has inherent dangers, big surprise, but so does other fighting styles. And said danger is bigger and lesser depending how your summoning works. Bigger surprise, characters are different and some are much more efficient. Is not our problem, is the character's problem to account for.

Ditto cubed.

 

[Wokistan]

How about String Theory (Worm) then? She takes a while to build her shit, but we shouldn't assume she's already set up orbital High 6-A tinker sattelites in prepless fighting. That is weird. Or Eidolon (Worm), who has to pick his powers and this is a weakness people exploit against a clone of his.

ALso you haven't addressed the issue of this making reactive summoners not work, as well as people with summon limits.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

If it's against the summoned then honestly it should just be the summon that fights. There is not point on the summoner in the first place, that just over complicates things.

At this point I wouldnt even be opposed to this.

My question though honestly is how it's "unfair" to make someone who is unable to fight without a summoning not be targetted? Its not like it really gives them any advantage since they're helpless on their own.

 

[Wokistan]

It gives them the advantage of being '''totally invulnerable'''. Seriously how the **** is this not an advantage if they're totally irrelevant to their summon it's not like they'd exist

 

[Rocker1189]

At this point I wouldnt even be opposed to this.

My question though honestly is how it's "unfair" to make someone who is unable to fight without a summoning not be targetted? Its not like it really gives them any advantage since they're helpless on their own.

The unfair bit comes in when they can use multiple summons. What if they can summon infinitely. The opponent can't do anything about that. What if they can buff their units and make then stronger again the opponent can't do anything about that cause the summoner I'd protected by an impossible to get around invulnerability.

We have a literal Summoner profile:https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Summoners_(League_of_Legends)

And from what I can tell in battles normally a summon is specified for them. They can still be killed like normal they just rely on the summon for protection.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Summons taking time is not an argument. Pulling a gun and aiming takes time. Shouting a spell takes time. An ability taking time to use is not an argument, and neither is that one takes more time than another.
This gets dumber and dumber. Being a summoner has inherent dangers, big surprise, but so does other fighting styles. And said danger is bigger and lesser depending how your summoning works. Bigger surprise, characters are different and some are much more efficient. Is not our problem, is the character's problem to account for.

FIrst of all, if you think this is "dumb", don't reply here. Simple as that.

And secondly, this isnt about summonings taking time to be called forth. It's about how specifying a tier for the involved characters should give the summoner at least one of their summonings already in battle as the battle starts. Which is literally no different than us making a character start out in a particular form when putting them in a match. The latter in which we absolutely allow.

 

[Wokistan]

Answer the reactive summoners/summon limitations question

We don't default to amps already used, we just allow it. Summons should be the same.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

How is it fair to make the summons perfectly coordinated but not being able to destroy the source?

I mean... ******* hell, how hard is it to get that a big weakness is just that, a weakness? The character has to compensate for that, just as they compensate for it in their home universe. Just as any other character with big weaknesses due to their fighting style has to compensate for it. Because that's realistic, and fair.

Is not our problem. It shouldn't be our problem. The fact that you don't see how this more or less gives Reliant Immortality to some summons, which is many more levels of unfair, is beyond me.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It gives them the advantage of being totally invulnerable. Seriously how the **** is this not an advantage if they're totally irrelevant to their summon it's not like they'd exist

But again, if you cant do anything, then its not really an advantage. If anything, it makes it easier for the opponent since all they'd have to do to win is defeat the summonings. Meanwhile, your helpless in doing nothing else but shout commands.

What good is not being targetted if you cant do anything on your own? That is what my question is.

 

[Wokistan]

"FIrst of all, if you think this is "dumb", don't reply here. Simple as that."

This really doesn't work. For the record, I will freely admit I think this is a dumb proposal. If I don't reply, I can't exactly stop a thing I don't like from being enacted. This is like the "if you don't like it then leave" thing that pops up irl

 

[Rocker1189]

Ah yeah that's another thing. If you can just resummon them it makes the summons ultimately invincible. With the fighter being incapable of doing anything about it.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

If I think it is dumb, it is for a good reason, even better one to explain why it is dumb.

And what you can do on your own is summon entities and direct them. That's what a summoner does.

And perhaps because those summons are not forms? They are not even mechanically similar things.

 

[Wokistan]

Why is being able to coordinate your team "doing nothing"? Hell, some summons can't even exist without their dude.

"If anything, it makes it easier for the opponent since all they'd have to do to win is defeat the summonings."

must be some awful summons if they're easier to beat than the summoner lul

"What good is not being targetted if you cant do anything on your own? That is what my question is."

Because coordination is still doing a thing. They spawn their dudes, they direct their dudes, sometimes they assume direct control like our recurrent example Glaistig Uaine, if the summoners did literally nothing, they wouldn't even exist.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

At the point that you try to exlude them out because "they can do nothing" (objectively untrue for a lot of cases), you aren't debating a summoner.

You are debating a non-existent something that can spawn summons and direct them while remaining untouched. How this is any better boggles my mind.

 

[Wokistan]

tfw you fight spawn flags and game code

 

[Rocker1189]

^LUL

 

[MrDrProfessorPatricio]

You know there is a character I know with Endless summoning that you have to fight and will not stop until you kill the summoner. Making that summoner untargetable makes him literally invincible

 

[00potato]

Fighting creative Minecraft man with potions.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

tfw you fight spawn flags and game code

Heh

 

[Rocker1189]

You know there is a character I know with Endless summoning that you have to fight and will not stop until you kill the summoner. Making that summoner untargetable makes him literally invincible

This is exactly what I expected to happen.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

>Why is being able to coordinate your team "doing nothing"?

Because it does nothing for the individual. Again, if the individual is helpless and cant do anything but shout commands and summon things, being untargeted isn't an advantage. It really does nothing.

>must be some awful summons if they're easier to beat than the summoner lul

Or its easier because they win by taking away the summoners only mean to fight?

>Because coordination is still doing a thing.

Does nothing to make the user not be defenseless though. And using Glastig as an example only goes to show why this is more of a case by case basis type of thing.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

???

Coordination doesn't make you less defenseless? Making those summons stop the dude going after your ass doesn't make you less defenseless? What the actual hell?

Oh, sure, aiming a gun at the person running after you doesn't make you any less defenseless either.

Let's have marksman not participate in the battle as their weapons levitate on the air.

 

[Wokistan]

But his team is doing stuff for themself, and they're the target. They're not really helpless when they are in control of the big scary summons. Take out the guy saying commands, no more commands, dudes disorganized, much easier to kill.

Nah i'm pretty sure it's easier to shoot 1 guy than it is to shoot his pets then shoot him \

Dodging. Dudes being pulled out as human shields. Attacking to make a counterattack impossible. If we're tired of Glaistig Uaine don't worry I got more, moving on to Rachel Lindt. Bitch uses her power to mutate dogs into big scary monsters. Pretty sure she's still gotta grow them up, though it doesn't take long, and Bitch herself rides them and stuff so making her untargetable just makes an invincible patch on the dog which is also a no.

 

[Rocker1189]

At the end of the day all you have to do is: If the summons are capable of fighting without the need of a summoner. Make the summon a page and have it for its own battles.

If not then tough luck for the summoner. They have stronger summons they should use those summons to protect themselves.

Giving summoners an insurmountable invincibility due to their inability to fight for themselves is quite weird to me. Their inability to fight and squishiness is their weakness in a high tier fight.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And once those summons are defeated? Then what? Unless you have some magical fuckery of endless summons (which very few characters here have), you are less defenseless.

You can coordinate and command all you want. Your not factoring in the summons actually being killed.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

If the summons are defeated, so what? That's like asking "what if Iron Man runs out of armor?" That character loses. Oh well.

 

[Wokistan]

"very few"

If you give me a while, I'm sure I can pull up a ton. Here's one off the top of my head. The Siberia.

Anyways, are you saying characters shouldn't be allowed to lose a fight here? Like legit what what is the problem with a guy being helpless once his dudes are dead hell isn't that what you want to be the mandate and you're just against people cutting out the middleman

Sure I am, Bitch's dogs aren't invincible. Dog dies, she has like 18 more, it's fine though she'll be upset and probably start getting really aggressive. Or resummoning. Again this doesn't even help your point.

 

[Wokistan]

Yo I just realized, we gonna accept totally unkillable Siberia? Not only is she basically immune to powers and AP as is, but Manton can resummon her at will even if she's somehow destroyed. **** it, no more losing matches, remove the one weakness that thing has

 

[Rocker1189]

And once those summons are defeated? Then what? Unless you have some magical fuckery of endless summons (which very few characters here have), you are less defenseless.

You can coordinate and command all you want. Your not factoring in the summons actually being killed.

If the summons are defeated you lose simple as that. All the invulnerability does is give them an unfair ability that they do not normally have.

I am factoring them being killed though. I am just saying that summoners are not defenceless since their summons defend them meaning there is not need to this invulnerability.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You know what, fine. Nevermind. Im finished with this thread. There's no point in arguing this any further.

Someone close this please.