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Summoners and Tamer's Issue

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Sure you can, just portal to a higher number universe than the multiverse thet break. Also not all 2-Bs have that sort of destructive capacity. Oryx, the Taken King had a son who would be 2-B who was irritated because little 8-B vex kept teleporting away from him.

The difference bring that the summoner has the capability of winning via being smarter about how they manage their summon.
 
none then its just a stomp, rules should not be made to make matches fair, making matches fair is not the reason behind vs debates, point of vs debates is to see who wins regardless of whether it s a stomp or not, stomps are simply not added to pages. If we do this it would end up giving the summoners an unfair advantage due to creating multiple summons without end and giving them an abiity they do not have (invulnerability of the highest level as not matter what hax you use you cna not reahc the summoner).

If a summoner cant win a fight in anyway cause they have no way of protecting themselve from the opponent even with their summons then its simply a stomp match that should not have been made.
 
Wokistan said:
Sure you can, just portal to a higher number universe than the multiverse thet break. Also not all 2-Bs have that sort of destructive range. Oryx, the Taken King had a son who would be 2-B who was irritated because little 8-B vex kept teleporting away from him. (Crota can probably do that sort of thing in the Ascendant Plane now, but I guess not then.)

The difference bring that the summoner has the capability of winning via being smarter about how they manage their summon.
Click to expand...
 
@Rocker

Right, so then if a 10-A summoner is directly attacked by a 5-B because the summon is ignored, its no different than a 10-A fighting a 5-B individually. They'd both be considered stomps then is what im asking.
 
Unless the 10-B can somehow use his summon to stop the other 5-B, or can reasonably keep away from the 5-B long enough for his summon to take over the fight.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
@Rocker
Right, so then if a 10-A summoner is directly attacked by a 5-B because the summon is ignored, its no different than a 10-A fighting a 5-B individually. They'd both be considered stomps then is what im asking.
Click to expand...
I mean pretty much if the 10-A cant do anything to defend themselves or if their summon is unable to do anything abou tit then it was a stomp from the start. It would be likek putting a 10-A with a 5-B attack against another 5-B except not matter what that 5-B attack wont work, it is simply a stomp.
 
Kukui, what you aren't getting is that that is 100% an individual case. Making it a general standard is wrong.

Heck, I have single handedly (I guess with a bit of Cal's help ovo) turned what everyone thought a stomp for Ikki into a win for Red via Red's showings of intelligence and specific applications of techniques.

If the summoner is not smart enough to do any of it, is his fault.

Edit: Well, not really a win yet , but proved that Red has a fighting chance.
 
Its really not though. You seem to be assuming really inept summoners that will not have their 5-B act as a human shield or dodge or whatever. Want an in verse example of people not being this incompetent? Glaistig Uaine was one of very few people who could actually fight Scion (Worm) for longer than a few seconds and life, she even forced him to use Contessa's power and she may or may not have even had access to High 6-A stuff at the time. It's not like every summoner in fiction is going to just sit there and do nothing.

I agree with risci that all that is needed are the normal stomp rules.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Exactly, so pretty much whenever a summoner is killed, the match can't be added in most cases.
Click to expand...
Not exactly, if the summoner was capable of doing something about it (ie summon can block, summon can act by itself to help) then it wont be a stomp simply cause the summoner was killed, the summoner's summons would have to be outclassed too.
 
I don't think saying most is a very good idea considering the many verses where summoners already expect to be targeted, but if it means pokemon gets stomped a bunch or whatever then okay sure. Don't need a special rule.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Exactly, so pretty much whenever a summoner is killed, the match can't be added in most cases.
Click to expand...
And I will disagree with that 100% of the time.

The summon can still fight, and if it wins, it shall be inconclusive. Simple as that.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Exactly, so pretty much whenever a summoner is killed, the match can't be added in most cases.
Click to expand...
You can't know what most fights will be like, at most you can make guesses in the dark.

Certainly, no rules will be added. If something is a stomp, we'll whoopee doo, we have the rules for that already.


If Ash just has Pikachu fight instead of a pokemon that could easily stop the enemy, then the summon being ignored is not an excuse however.
 
Okay so let me get this straight.

A haxless 10-A being killed by a Low 2-C = a stomp match to be closed and not added.

A 10-A summoner being killed by a Low 2-C after ignoring the summons= not a stomp match and ca be added?

Both cases involve a 10-A vs A Low 2-C.
 
I mean, anyone could argue that if a character as used several Low 2-C characters against an even stronger Low 2-C means that it can survive against other equally strong, so I believe most of the time a 10-B summoner with Low 2-C summonings vs Low 2-C will not result in a stomp. If not, welp, I guess this summmoner do not really have combat feats nor a modus operandi.
 
Conditionally. You're making a poor comparison. A much better comparison is to a dura neg 10-A or a 10-A with low 2-C gun. It's much more accurate, because the current one assumes the summoner is just ****** despite it's command over a low 2-C.

Also why are you assuming the summons are so equally ignored I just gave an example of a 10-C/B summoner fighting off Scion in verse lile this isn't a universal thing
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Okay so let me get this straight.
A haxless 10-A being killed by a Low 2-C = a stomp match to be closed and not added.

A 10-A summoner being killed by a Low 2-C after ignoring the summons= not a stomp match and ca be added?

Both cases involve a 10-A vs A Low 2-C.
Click to expand...
First is a stomp because that haxless 10-A literally can't fight bac, leaving him with exactly 0 win conditions, fullfiling the stomp condition

Second isn't because he actually can kill with his summons, giving him actual feasible win conditions. Not the enemies fault if the summoner is too naive to believe that his enemy will not gun for him instead of his summon
 
That is a fake equivalency there dude.

First of all, the fact that you can summon something on your enemies level means a further look needs to be taken in on the fight. Did you fail to summon because of your own shortcomings like arrogance, or were you physically unable to summon before being killed?


Secondly, we are not dealing with absolutes.

The absolute is one:

If the character cannot win regardless of the actions they take, then it is a stomp.
 
And same applies to being killed after you summoned

Could your summon have protected you, either by tanking the hit or by distracting the enemy?
 
Fair enough then I suppose?

I guess the only thing left for me to comment on is Dragon's opinion on how to deal with this. If nothing else, i'll agree to his propositions but for the latter suggestion of having a summon be placed in battle after it starts, I suggest that it be an automatic standard for summoners.

Even if the summoner being killed is fair, they still need the summons out already for the fight to actually be able to happen in the first place.
 
No. If you want the summoner to have abilities that need time to activate, give them prep time.

No advantages are to be given as default for faurness, at all. Needing charge up for an ability is as much a weakness as anything else. Carpet statements that all fights with summoners, or even "most", need for the summons to be automatic is not going to cut it.
 
Sorry, I meant they should be given the chance to have at least one of their summonings out and ready to battle before fighting.

And the reason is simple. The summoning is still what makes the tamer the tier they're in. If the summoning isn't already out before they fight, the fight isn't able to actually happen.
 
Just because summoners in their own universe are not subject to attack doesn't make it the case everywhere else.

A 10-A summoner being killed by a Low 2-C after ignoring the summons= not a stomp match and can be added?

Said summon can still win a fight after the summoner is killed, it's not like killing Cyrus suddenly makes Dialga or Palkia not exist anymore.

Also, just because attacking the summoner is a viable strategy doesn't mean its always the best, in the case of Pokemon Dialga is the thing that's going to kill you so why immediately rush the person that can't do anything? You could be jeopardizing yourself by putting your attention elsewhere.

All in all, I disagree that summoners shouldn't be targets, they are combatants in a fight to the death, they aren't dog fighting.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
No. If you want the summoner to have abilities that need time to activate, give them prep time.
Click to expand...
Im talking about having the summon already in battle before both parties fight. Not having the summons abilities already activated.
 
So? You don't give people with higher tiered abilities the same thing, and for a reason.

It's not a "make fights fair". There is no reason to make two characters tiers match right away either. You can go out of your way to specify it in the OP if you want it.
 
You know, active abilities... need to be activated.

If they can't summon it without dying to the opponent, it's a stomp as said above.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
-What about when a fight starts?

This discretion is up to the OP at the end of the day. Personally I would prefer the Tamer to at least have a summon out (in the amount they would use in character) to give them at least the illusion of a fighting chance. Although that is up to OP discretion unless people agree with that here.
Click to expand...
What I said regarding this topic.
 
Then why do we allow characters to start matches out in particular forms that make them that tier? For instance, Goku is 3-A when as a SSG. So when puting him in a 3-A matchup, he doesnt start in base and then transform into SSG, he starts the match already as a SSG because SSG is what makes him 3-A. And transforming into one is entirely active.

So why can't a summoner start a match out with a summon already in battle like someone else would a form?
 
@Kukui

Because it is inferred in the OP of the battle that Goku is already in that form.

The OP will have to specify that the summon is already out. That simple.
 
No they don't. People usually just specify 3-A, Low 2-C, or whatever and Goku starts the match out in the form that makes him that tier.
 
"Because if the summon isn't already out before they fight, how can the fight actually happen? Answer me that."


Just like any other ability, using it. You're probably allowed to just start with them out as an OP.


Also isn't goku 3-A in base
 
YungManzi said:
Winning a vs battle by killing a non-fighter summoner before they summon is very no bueno.
Completely wack.
Click to expand...
Agreed, but outvoted here. So oh-well.

Not like it would be a true victory or anything so it doesn't matter that much.
 
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