Standard Battle Assumption

[Caol3108]

Okay so let me be clear i wanna ask about SBA because nowadays people be doing private debate complicated. The reasons why i wanna ask this because there's a thread in a group called "ibr" explaining about SBA

1. About Character version : the thread said that "strongest version doesn't mean a strongest form meaning a character won't be in his strongest form when the battle just started for example like ui goku, meaning that when the battle has started goku need to transform by himself not be in his ui form already. The thread also explaning that A "version" means which version are the strongest version of the character example Dbs goku>Z goku meaning Dbs goku are the strongest "version" not which transformation because transformation = form not version."

• So he wanna say that a character won't be in which form by default

2. No Preparation : he said "Characters will be pulled directly from their daily lives into the combat arena, meaning there is zero time for preparation. This requires us to examine each character’s status within their normal lives.Take Naruto as an example: he is a Hokage. Is it reasonable for him to be using his strongest forms, like Baryon Mode, during his day-to-day routine? Of course not. Doing so would essentially kill the core logic of his power and ruin the narrative, where Naruto’s daily life consists of managing village paperwork.
Therefore, the version brought into battle is indeed their "strongest," but it must follow the progression of the actual story. Remember, we aren't role-playing as these characters; we are debating by building premises based on the established narrative."

3. About State Of Mind in character : he said that "Characters fight according to the personality displayed in their story (we don't have the right to dictate a character's personality to suit ourselves). A character will still strive to win, but in a way that aligns with their nature.For example, if you bring up a 'spite-match' between Son Goku and Naruto Uzumaki: does Goku really need his strongest form to defeat Naruto, whose tier is even weaker than Goku's base mode? Of course not. The character's natural progression and personality must be strictly observed, as well as the actual reasons why a character would need to power up through different forms."

• I really want an opinion from you guys especially an admin because people seems to follow this thread so i just want a confirmation there's also a link to the group if you guys want to see full explanation i can share it just in case.

Note : Sorry if you guys didn't understand my eng because he didn't post it in english so i need to translate it by myself n my eng wasn't so good either

 

[Imaginym]

You may find this page useful, presuming you have not checked it already:

Standard Battle Assumptions

The following are the assumptions to be made for battles in versus threads, if no alternative assumptions are specified by the thread creator. Assumptions alternative to these ones can be freely used, are equally legitimate, and threads using different assumptions can be added to profiles just...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Okay so let me be clear i wanna ask about SBA because nowadays people be doing private debate complicated. The reasons why i wanna ask this because there's a thread in a group called "ibr" explaining about SBA

Please note that if this is a discussion happening not within our forum nor our Wiki, it doesn't necessarily fall under our purview. It generally isn't reasonable to expect the users of a forum to regulate interactions on other parts of the internet happening by other users.

People are free to adapt & revise our standards as they prefer for use on other parts of the internet, but at the same time, being elsewhere on the internet means it is not within our reasonable scope to manage.

1. About Character version : the thread said that "strongest version doesn't mean a strongest form meaning a character won't be in his strongest form when the battle just started for example like ui goku, meaning that when the battle has started goku need to transform by himself not be in his ui form already. The thread also explaning that A "version" means which version are the strongest version of the character example Dbs goku>Z goku meaning Dbs goku are the strongest "version" not which transformation because transformation = form not version."


• So he wanna say that a character won't be in which form by default

Quoting from our page linked above:

"Character version: The strongest canon version of a character is used, that we have listed. The strongest version being defined as the one with the highest tier; if there are multiple versions with the same tier, then the most recent version."

It is possible for a character to have different canon versions, & thus, different pages. & each of those may each have their own "strongest version", depending on the tiering of the key. For example, Goku has profiles for his manga canon & his Toei anime canon, & so each of those would have their own different "strongest version".

It is also possible to specify a character starts untransformed, though putting them in a form different from one they may need to be in for a match to be fair may cause issues, such as of fairness. For example, Speed, Strength & Durability may differ between two forms such that, in the time the character needs to go from the specified starting form to a form more fit to the presented matchup, they may get Speedblitzed &/or One-Shot before they can finish changing form.
Such a scenario may be considered a mismatch or Stomp by our standards, but it's case by case.

Also, please note this quote from the page:

"The following are the assumptions to be made for battles in versus threads, if no alternative assumptions are specified by the thread creator. Assumptions alternative to these ones can be freely used, are equally legitimate, and threads using different assumptions can be added to profiles just like these ones can. Generally, it is preferable that the thread creator specify the assumptions he wants to use in the thread and adjust them in such a way that as fair a fight as possible can take place."

Even if a matchup isn't occurring outside of our site, it is valid, by our site's rulings, to change the starting conditions in the opening post; SBA are used when starting conditions are not specified, after all. Since the alternative to using a default is no one has any certainty where or when the battle is occurring, what mindsets the characters may be in, etc.
Ambiguities like that from unspecified starting conditions can complicate a matchup & make it more difficult to reach conclusions &/or consensus.

2. No Preparation : he said "Characters will be pulled directly from their daily lives into the combat arena, meaning there is zero time for preparation. This requires us to examine each character’s status within their normal lives.Take Naruto as an example: he is a Hokage. Is it reasonable for him to be using his strongest forms, like Baryon Mode, during his day-to-day routine? Of course not. Doing so would essentially kill the core logic of his power and ruin the narrative, where Naruto’s daily life consists of managing village paperwork.
Therefore, the version brought into battle is indeed their "strongest," but it must follow the progression of the actual story. Remember, we aren't role-playing as these characters; we are debating by building premises based on the established narrative."

Users are free to specify the circumstances of characters in a Versus Thread. By our forum & Wiki's rules, it isn't necessarily immutable what status a character will be in.
Quoting the page:

"Preparation time: None. That means there is no time between the character knowing there is going to be some battle and the point they may start killing each other. They are, in a single instant, transported to the battlefield from their everyday activities, equipped with their equipment, transformed to the character version they battle in and given the correct state of mind. In the same instant the battle starts and they may attack each other. They are assumed to not be surprised or disorientated from the sudden start."

But again, this is a Standard Battle Assumption; Starting conditions may be changed, & SBA exist to be used as disambiguating defaults.

3. About State Of Mind in character : he said that "Characters fight according to the personality displayed in their story (we don't have the right to dictate a character's personality to suit ourselves). A character will still strive to win, but in a way that aligns with their nature.For example, if you bring up a 'spite-match' between Son Goku and Naruto Uzumaki: does Goku really need his strongest form to defeat Naruto, whose tier is even weaker than Goku's base mode? Of course not. The character's natural progression and personality must be strictly observed, as well as the actual reasons why a character would need to power up through different forms."

It is reasonable to assume characters will behave in-characterly according the canon established by the work of origin.
It's possible for an opening post to specify events experienced, actions & behaviours & other details in a matchup's conditions.

Quoting the page:

"State of mind: In character, but will attempt to win the battle. Characters will not give up of their own accord. That means a character that is uninterested or sees no chance of winning won't simply leave and characters wouldn't simply become friends with each other. This doesn't prevent a character being made to give up, because the other character manipulates them via things like, for example, mind control, fear inducement, psychological tricks or superhuman charisma.
Each character will view their opponents as enemies, who they have to assume wish to cause them severe harm such that losing could have any range of dire consequences. The characters will assume their opponents have not been forced into battle. They are assumed to have decided from free will to fight and are not excused by a just cause, difficult times or otherwise exonerating circumstances. Furthermore, the situation is assumed one where the opponents are not protected by social norms or consequences, such as being a civilian protected by law."

• I really want an opinion from you guys especially an admin because people seems to follow this thread so i just want a confirmation there's also a link to the group if you guys want to see full explanation i can share it just in case.

Note : Sorry if you guys didn't understand my eng because he didn't post it in english so i need to translate it by myself n my eng wasn't so good either

Once again, SBA mostly exist to be defaults to be used when starting conditions haven't been specified.
If starting conditions are specified, then those are generally used in place of SBA where applicable.

However, our site & forum's policies don't necessarily apply outside of the site & forum.

I hope this makes sense & is helpful.
Best regards!

 

[Caol3108]

Once again, SBA mostly exist to be defaults to be used when starting conditions haven't been specified.
If starting conditions are specified, then those are generally used in place of SBA where applicable.

However, our site & forum's policies don't necessarily apply outside of the site & forum.

I hope this makes sense & is helpful.
Best regards!

Thank you for answering it really helps me

 

[Caol3108]

One last thing i wanna ask because I've seen a moderator saying that "If the transformation grants them unique abilities, then it would be treated as a separate key. As for whether they start in that key or not is up to the person making the versus battle. On the other hand if the transformation is just a stat boost, then it would be categorized as an ability they have, and mentioned in their statistics.
As for whether character versions and forms are treated separately or not. It depends on whether they are different/unique enough to be considered separate keys"

This thread posted 2 years ago so let me ask you instead

• Example 1 : Cosmic garou granted from god and he also granted a few hax, ap, dura, speed that is not achievable by his base form does that mean when the battle start he automatically be in his cosmic garou form ?

• Example 2 : Goku mui makes him getting new abilities such as instinctive reaction, duplication, etc. Also upgraded him -> tier 2c, so when the the sba rules applied does that mean goku would be in his mui already? Since it said "strongest version" but goku's strongest version are when he is in his mui form

 

[Imaginym]

One last thing i wanna ask because I've seen a moderator saying that "If the transformation grants them unique abilities, then it would be treated as a separate key. As for whether they start in that key or not is up to the person making the versus battle. On the other hand if the transformation is just a stat boost, then it would be categorized as an ability they have, and mentioned in their statistics.
As for whether character versions and forms are treated separately or not. It depends on whether they are different/unique enough to be considered separate keys"

This seems generally accurate, though there may be case by case variation depending on the individual circumstances.
In theory, a Transformation that changes nothing but Statistics MIGHT be listed as just an ability on a profile; Statistics Manipulation & variations of Statistics Manipulation are powers & abilities we index, though I'm not sure of many examples that are just that.

If the transformation grants them unique abilities, then it would be treated as a separate key. As for whether they start in that key or not is up to the person making the versus battle. On the other hand if the transformation is just a stat boost, then it would be categorized as an ability they have, and mentioned in their statistics.

As for whether character versions and forms are treated separately or not. It depends on whether they are different/unique enough to be considered separate keys.

You appear to be consulting this 2 year old post from @ActuallySpaceMan42 , FWIW, so it may be worth it if he speaks about it to clarify things regarding if things have changed since his answer.

This thread posted 2 years ago so let me ask you instead

• Example 1 : Cosmic garou granted from god and he also granted a few hax, ap, dura, speed that is not achievable by his base form does that mean when the battle start he automatically be in his cosmic garou form ?

Repeating what the Standard Battle Assumptions page says:
"Character version: The strongest canon version of a character is used, that we have listed. The strongest version being defined as the one with the highest tier; if there are multiple versions with the same tier, then the most recent version."

If you'll pardon my doing so, please, I have formatted in underlined text the parts of the quote that seem especially pertinent to your question.
The "strongest canon version" is the version used, & how we determine which version of the character that is for SBA purposes is detailed, albeit, briefly there. I hope this help.

• Example 2 : Goku mui makes him getting new abilities such as instinctive reaction, duplication, etc. Also upgraded him -> tier 2c, so when the the sba rules applied does that mean goku would be in his mui already? Since it said "strongest version" but goku's strongest version are when he is in his mui form

The above seems relevant to this question as well.

Sorry for any bother.
Again, I hope this helps!

 

[Caol3108]

The above seems relevant to this question as well.

Sorry for any bother.
Again, I hope this helps!

Alright thank you very much

 

[DenzOnigiri]

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