STAFF ONLY: Composite Pokemon Files and Trainer Aces

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So let's just say this has been getting very out of hand. And I feel that only we staff can really fix this.

So as we all know we agree that Pokemon files would be composite, Hence why Darkrai and Cresselia were upgraded to Low 2-C via having multiple Universe+ level feats across multiple pokemon media.

However people seem to get this confused with the pokemon's other feats that are less than their composites. Such as Supersonic Charizard when the same pokemon has shown High Hypersonic feats multiple times and is even on par if not stronger than a mouse with MHS attack speed.

So what Aiden had suggested is that when we find a feat, we separate them with keys. However, people are starting to not read the keys and in fact want these keys to be taken away.

We also have the problem of Pokemon Species files. Are the files only of that species? Or are the files for all of that Pokemon's feats that are accepted? If a Pokemon has a trainer that is Tier 7-B for feats that THAT pokemon performed, should we not add that to that Pokemon's file? Or are we going to count that as an outlier for that Pokemon, but not for the trainer.

This is my problem with "Species" files. They contradict the point of the files being composite. For example Pikachu is tier 8-A I believe? While Ash is 7-B for being above a Gym Leader who commands an Abomasnow. Despite Pikachu being considered one of Ash's strongest Pokemon. Not trying to say Pikachu is 7-B just making an example. Probably a bad one.

Let's try this if the files are composite then why can't we do this? My demonstration will use Incineroar as an example.

Average Incineroar|Composite Incineroar(Anime)| Composite Incineroar(Game)| Composite Incineroar(Manga)

Now first off we have your average everyday Incineraor. Then we have stats for Incineroar with different stats depending on the trainer. Then finally we have the overall composite stat.

Now we should only scale a trainer's Pokemon to that if it's their Ace. For Example If Lance's Dragonite is say Planet level( Ain't gonna happen btw.) that doesn't mean all of his Pokemon are planet level. Only the Ace Pokemon of a trainer should have a stat. This way we don't have like 50 Gyarados keys because we all know everyone and their mother has a Gyarados for some reason.

As for the Anime, when it comes to Ash, well I think we should scale his more prominent Pokemon. However I'm not so sure.

Is what I'm saying unreasonable? Is it reasonable? Am I thinking too much of it? Does this even make sense? Do you have any idea of your own? Or is this just flat out stupid overall?

Also there has been a divide on the staff who govern the Pokemon files along with a few other non staff members so this has to be fixed as well or nothing will ever get done when it comes to Pokemon. We started off well, but recently we've been at each others throats. Hence why I've asked other staff to comment.

 

[RadicalMrR]

We dont need this many Keys its way easier to just use 1 key for each piece of media. here is and example of how cluttered this will get going with the trainer thing.

Average Incineroar Anime| Ash's Incineroar Anime| Hau's Incineroar Anime| Kukui's Incineroar Anime| Average Incineroar Manga| Ash's Incineroar Manga| Hau's Incineroar Manga| Kukui's Incineroar Manga| Average Incineroar Game| Ash's Incineroar Game| Hau's Incineroar Game| Kukui's Incineroar Game| Composite Incineroar Game

• Also bare in mind this is only accounting for inceneroar, some pokemon have another 3 forms and we would have keys for that as well.

This why we should only have 1 key using the best feat for that piece of media, it reduces the clutter and isnt as repetitive.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Did you even know the new rule?


We add "{Media where came from Feat Only}"


If a profile has enough stats to make different keys, then add them

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

No no no. That is not what I meant. As far a we know Kukui only has an Incineroar/Decidueye/Primarina in the games. In the anime Kukui barely has anything past a Rockruff. And Manga Kukui we don't know yet. Same with Hau. I'm just going by games and anime for now. I doubt we are going to have that many keys for simple an incineroar. Also for those with megas. Mega evolution alone doesn't bump you up one whole tier so for example Steven's metagross could be 7-A. Mega Metagross would still be 7-A.

But I like that idea so pretty much Average Pokemon|Composite Game| Composite Anime| Composite Manga?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Did you even know the new rule?

We add "{Media where came from Feat Only}"


If a profile has enough stats to make different keys, then add them

Is this for me or Rad. If it's toward me then I likely do not know about that rule as I've been out of the loop for a little bit.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Yes I do know the rule, thats why I wrote all those keys to show just how needlessly cluttered the profiles can become.

If we have a tier 7 feat what is the point in making 8 keys for the last feats of the Pokemon? Than we have to make the keys for the other evolutions, and the mega forms and the alolan forms.

The bare minimum for say charizard is 5 or 4 keys and thats only taking into consideration one piece of media, if he we decide to have more than 1 key for each piece of media I can literally give like 50 solid stats for him each needing its own key.

Look at Goku he should have 5 4-B keys but he only has 1 since its pointless to add the others.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Agreed with Aiden. That's what we should do.

Also, the idea of "count that as an outlier for that Pokemon, but not for the trainer " makes sense. If the Pokémon couldn't do it, it was likely because it couldn't do it without it's trainer. But thi sfurther complicates things for us.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Agreed with Aiden. That's what we should do.
Also, the idea of "count that as an outlier for that Pokemon, but not for the trainer " makes sense. If the Pokémon couldn't do it, it was likely because it couldn't do it without it's trainer. But thi sfurther complicates things for us.

Well to be fair all a trainer does is train a pokemon to raise its power. And tell it what to do in battle.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

snip

I actually agree with that. I've updated the OP. How does it look now?

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Looks the same. Stance isn't changing for Hop.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Looks the same. Stance isn't changing for Hop.

I just edited the part about the keys bunnyboy

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Boi.

We should wait for at least one admin's opinion on this subject too.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Yup. This is gonna take some time..Also Cal's word is also needed.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

bump....

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I still think out rule on this is extra considering how we give other franchises wayyy more leeway despite having the same, if not more, canons, but it's the best compromise we have.

Anyways, I agree with Rad. We don't want to overclutter. We have Mario and Goku win two different profiles to avoid overclutter.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Cal I agree with Rad as well Thus I feel like the Average Pokemon|Composite Game| Composite Anime| Composite Manga may be our best and currently safest option.

Also reword this as it cam out weird. Get it together Cal

"I still think out rule on this is extra"

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Whoops. Dang autocorrect. It should be the instead of out. The phrase is correct tho, at least for the colloquialism I'm from.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So you're trying to say

"I still think the rule on this is extra considering how we give other franchises wayyy more leeway despite having the same, if not more, canons"

Right?

 

[Gemmysaur]

I don't understand very well the whole Average/Compo Game/Compo Anime/Compo Manga thing. No really, I didn't get it.

Anyways, if they're composite, then why the other keys? Can't we have like a true composite profile or something?

e.g.

Attack Potency: Town level (something something game dex feat)

Speed: High Hypersonic+ (blah blah anime feat) with Massively Hypersonic flight speed (yap yap game showing feat)

Durability: At least Small Town level+ (yada yada manga feat)

Note: This sample profile is not intended to be a pokemon's stat, but just an example.

With regards to game trainers, they're supposed to be trained to be as strong as they can be right? I don't think we need to put trainer pokemon stats on pokemon profiles but on the trainer profiles only. Else, Red beating Mewtwo with Town level pokemon (guessing, didn't check the profiles so this is obviously wrong) would be just plain wrong.

 

[Antvasima]

With Aizen gone, I do not think that any of the admins know much about Pokemon. I and Aizen wrote a rule section earlier, but it was rewritten later on, and I do not remember much.

As such, I do not really know how to avoid turning the Pokemon profiles into a complete mess, beyond that going by individual feats and power descriptions would be preferable to power-scaling between different contradictory types of media.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Dragon

I understand that people want them removed / don't listen to them, but it doesn't make the profile anymore accurate.

I believe that accepting Trainer feats/scaling of a Pokemon and putting it in an average pokemon page is a bad idea. It would essentially be putting in more stats in a quite full profile.

As for who "leads" this verse, I always assumed it would be Cal, you, and Gemmy.

If this is really such a problem we could technically list the lesser feats from different canons under the "Feats" section. We would still have to list the specific canons though.

@Gemmy

Normally I would agree with you wholeheartedly, but after my experience with Samus' profile which suffers this to a significantly lesser degree, it would be impossible to properly scale all the Pokemon. We would have to remember every stat for each respective canon and each respective trainer in said canon without the pages. Scaling, especially for new profiles would be disastrous (inb4 7-B Joey).

Had this been one or two composite profiles this could have been avoided with a blog detailing those respective canons and feats for the pokemon like I did with Samus, but this is basically on a much larger scale.

Unless we don't scale Pokemon to other Pokemon, in which the need for the weaker variations would be gone so true composites can take their place but I don't think it would sit well with others

@Rad the clustering is not unnecessary. It's meant for accurate scaling and preventing inaccurate scaling. I.e. currently Darkrai scales to Mewtwo in PKMN Adv, but only keeping the highest level would suggest that Mewtwo can fight a Low 2-C foe, which is quite the outlier

@Cal as far as I know, the Pokemon series actually has the most canons and variations here, which is why there is a problem.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Er... Pokémon has 3. OPM has just as many canons, and not only do we take them all as secondary canon to the first one, but we also take guidebooks, and statements on who would win. Heck. We even take it for a cross verse. Even AoT has just as many. DBS has the means as secondary, etc.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"I understand that people want them removed / don't listen to them, but it doesn't make the profile anymore accurate."

I don't quite understand why this is directed at me. I personally don't want the keys to be removed. I feel as though the keys are what help the profiles stay accurate.

"I believe that accepting Trainer feats/scaling of a Pokemon and putting it in an average pokemon page is a bad idea. It would essentially be putting in more stats in a quite full profile."

Most files are not really full however. The fullest profile we have is Legendary Pokemon who don't really change in power across media. Normal Pokemon have mostly bare files with like one or two stats.

"As for who "leads" this verse, I always assumed it would be Cal, you, and Gemmy."

You're mostly right but you forgot Rad, Aiden and Darkaine. But overall our "boss" is Cal.

"If this is really such a problem we could technically list the lesser feats from different canons under the "Feats" section. We would still have to list the specific canons though.

This is a good idea. Similar to how we treat Beerus and Arceus.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Er... Pokémon has 3. OPM has just as many canons, and not only do we take them all as secondary canon to the first one, but we also take guidebooks, and statements on who would win. Heck. We even take it for a cross verse. Even AoT has just as many. DBS has the means as secondary, etc.

I think he means like the anime, anime specials, main games, spin-off games, manga, ans spin off manga, etc.

I actually think a composite game and anime file will cause a few problems.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Cal Dragon is right

We have a lot.

Some more obscure ones here are the Clefairy profile and the ReBurst one for example

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Cal Dragon is right
We have a lot.

Some more obscure ones here are the Clefairy profile and the ReBurst one for example

ReBURST is so obscure....Also didn't the guy fuse with a Zekrom? Shouldn't he be 6-A? Weird....

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm familiar with the Clefairy profile. I made it lol. But seriously, there's primary/secondary canon (Adventures/core games/anime) like the anime/manga to DB/DBS respectively, and there's spinoffs, which are non canon, like GT and movies. Only reason Darkrai is Low 2-C is because of spinoff composite.

 

[SomebodyData]

He probably should, but he gets kinda beaten by other 8-C pokemon fusions so idk, probably pis or alternate universe stats.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

He probably should, but he gets kinda beaten by other 8-C pokemon fusions so idk, probably pis or alternate universe stats.

I think we'll leave him alone. It may be PIS but I dunno. Never read it.

 

[SomebodyData]

Oh and before I forget, @Dragon

The first one was probably a mix up with another person (kinda got overloaded here a bit)

I was mostly referring to cases like Charizard, although just pointing out that other trainer keys being added would mean we would have one per incarnation. Ex. Dragonair would have Game | Game Trained | Lance Adv | Lance Anime and etc.

The last one was more of a personal interpretation, and to some degree most "who leads" are also interpertations

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

ReBurst is such a weird manga. Tbh Hop is happy it isn't canon

 

[Antvasima]

Here is what LordAizenSama said when I asked him:

"Mm yeah, I agree with what Radical said,I've always thought it would be easier to understand the profiles if we had composites via which media they are in. This may be easier said then done though, as it's going to require a lot of work to get feats in three different medias, and in the worst case scenario there may be none for some pokemon.

Admittedly i'm very out of touch with what goes on with the pokemon profiles, I'm not sure if the rules for the Pokemon profiles needs updating, it's changed a bit since we wrote the Verse rules originally."

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Wait, was Rad's idea for example, "Anime | Manga | Games"? If so, then I'm vehemently against it, no offense.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Wait, was Rad's idea for example, "Anime | Manga | Games"? If so, then I'm vehemently against it, no offense.

I think his idea was "Make it composite because otherwise it's a giant mess".

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the problem with completely composite is that people will power-scale, despite the inconsistencies between different types of media.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Most inconsistencies either come from the anime or anyone hurting legendaries.

 

[Gemmysaur]

Can't we make it so scalings only come from the game and the anime and manga are only for individual feats?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

What about we do this. Like I said we have a stat for the general power of the species. Then we go for composites.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Hmmmm. That would save space and make navigation easier.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

I still with the current idea

Clarify is a feat is Manga/Anime only, and if they have enough stats in that media, add a different key