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STAFF INPUT NEEDED: Pokemon Types Revisions

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So I guess my suggestion to make 17 unique typing pages for an area with how offensive moves work and their effects then an area with how offensive utility moves work and their effects isn't being considered... Feel it would fix the whole effective, weakness immunities thing easily rather than blindly grouping one type which has diversity in it as one term..

Would be able to put at the top of each "Those resistant take half damage from offensive moves, immunities takes no effect from offensive and utility moves" while for fire/poison/electricity etc. could put on thier specific page "cannot be burned/poisoned/paralyzed by eletricity."

After that specifying what the general theme of the type would be possible based off OFFENSIVE moves(offensive status moves are NOT resisted due to typing only immunities take no effect). That's additionally why I find generalizing pokemon resistances on here isn't done correctly because status moves within a type aren't actually resisted or do more dmg just because of a typing.

Ex. If I dosticky web a normal type move it will reduce steel and rock types the same speed as fire types. Toxic does the same poison to grass and ghost types. Overall it should be specific type pages made for better clarity on pokemon resistances, immunities, and weaknesses imo.

Plus it turns less of a headache trying to specify similar moves or editing every single pokemon page when they change typing weaknesses, immunities, and strengths in a new gen.
 
I don't think we should force every other profile on the site to try to adhere to Pokemon typing like that.
 
PaChi2 said:
Bugs being weak to fire is fine.
Bugs being weak to rock or flying? Nah.
Click to expand...
Bug types do not resist being punched in the face really hard.

Bug types resist being punched in the face really hard while using skill and martial arts techniques.

This is clearly the most canon resistance and the one we need to focus on.
 
Resisting fighting but not resisting normal is why I feel that we should stay as we do and don't try to equalize fighting type. That makes no sense outside the context of Pokémon.
 
Clearly, Butterfree would no-sell Goku's attacks, but if it runs into the World Tournament announcer, then gg.
 
Well again, normal type is just that. Normal. With exception of ghost (sans moves that lolnope the resistance like Foresight), normal type moves literally do nothing but normal damage against anything else.

And we've already established the difference between normal and fighting unless someone has a better idea.
 
That is a very weird stamina justification.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
And we've already established the difference between normal and fighting unless someone has a better idea.
Click to expand...
A difference that even Cal doesn't agree to use and I'm sure Azzy doesn't as well. I've already stated my arguments against this and how this makes sense for no other fictional setting. A trained kick should have no special properties from an untrained one. Skill should not make something resisted or not.
 
In my opinion, the reasoning for Fighting being resisted by types Normal doesn't often seems comes down to what should be typical properties of things those types have.

You can swat a bug with your hand & kill it, of course.

But the principles behind circle throwing someone, hitting their pressure points & other things in martial artists are less applicable to something inherently different from what most martial arts are designed for: Humans, or humanoid beings.

Generally speaking, you don't try to sleeper hold a centipede, overhead throw a tiny fairy or sprite, nor is trying to defeat a bird by hitting its pressure points generally particularly effective.

But you can crush a centipede with your shoe, smack a pixie into a wall, or simply punch a bird really hard.

They are more simplistic than martial arts, but isn't that why more basic means should be more effective? That the complexities of martial arts are designed for considerably different opponents than such things, & thus, the methods used in implementing them are not beneficial against such opponents?

Pokemon of Bug types, Flying types & Fairy types seem to resistant Fighting type moves because of that, & if their types do represent or 'cause such Pokemon to have such properties in such canon, & there is a basis behind it, I feel it's reasonable.
 
The issue is that, this is all theory and trying to rationalize something that in truth does not work across verses. Something that is pretty blatant overall. As I have said. Rayquaza should not be anymore resistant to a punch from Goku than he resists one from an unskilled 5-B. This is something that cannot be equalized outside of Pokemon v Pokemon battles.

Also

"You don't try to sleeper hold a centipede"

Not with that attitude.
 
@Dragonmasterxyz:

And do you think because of those logical inconsistencies with some types, you think ALL Pokemon type match-ups for Normal, Fighting, Bug, Flying & Dragon Types shouldn't be applied outside of Pokemon vs Pokemon matches?

It's not as though type match-ups aren't brought up a great deal in the Pokemon settings, like the games & anime. I wouldn't think they're only game mechanics. And Pokemon Pokedex entries often show Pokemon having different reactions to things related to types that their own types don't like, or not being bothered by stuff their types are immune to.

Even when it's merely the environment, or other things, it's not unheard of Pokemon to do things consistent with their type match-ups, despite those things not being Pokemon, & thus, not having types.

Even if what I said above is pure conjecture, I would feel it's reasonable to say that they do demonstrate their type matchups affect how other, non-Pokemon things within the setting interact them.

Isn't it thus reasonable to assume types thus cause them to interact differently with things that should carry properties of types they have non-neutral "matchups" with?
 
"And do you think because of those logical inconsistencies with some types, you think ALL Pokemon type match-ups for Normal, Fighting, Bug, Flying & Dragon Types shouldn't be applied outside of Pokemon vs Pokemon matches?"

Except never once said that, nor argued it. I even stated that in this thread. Obviously a Dragon's weakness to Ice, a bug's weakness to Earth and Fire, a Flying type's weakness to Earth, Ice and Electricity can stay. However, when we start having using martial arts and such as a way to say "you're kick is ineffective because it was more skilled than this other one", then it objectively becomes nonsense.

"Even when it's merely the environment, or other things, it's not unheard of Pokemon to do things consistent with their type match-ups, despite those things not being Pokemon, & thus, not having types."

This still doesn't explain all types. An aerial tackle should not be more resisted than a normal one. A skilled kick should not be more resisted than an unskilled one. A mind user who is proficient in the powers of the mind should not be anymore weakened by a bug. etc, etc.

"Even if what I said above is pure conjecture, I would feel it's reasonable to say that they do demonstrate their type matchups affect how other, non-Pokemon things within the setting interact them.

Yeah, elemental stuff is pretty clear cut. As I said, the moment we start differentiating things such as an unskilled punch vs a skilled punch and whether they are resisted or not is where I draw the line.

"Isn't it thus reasonable to assume types thus cause them to interact differently with things that should carry properties of types they have non-neutral "matchups" with?"

No, it isn't. I am getting sick of repeating myself over and over again as I am basically talking to a bunch of brick walls at this point and I'm getting irritated. Deoxys vs Saitama and Deoxys vs Random 5-B Unskilled fighter. The logic of skill should not change the properties of an otherwise normal punch or kick. Saitama's punch should be no less effective than the unskilled no name.
 
Tfw a saibaman hits rayquaza harder than goku.

Lol

> Implying saitama's punches are skilled.

Oof.
 
A skilled strike vs an unskilled one would be very much different for reasons already clarified, especially if the former is specifically making use of fighting energies, like if Goku incorporates KI into his physical attacks.

Im sorry Dragon, but at least for this, I have to disagree.
 
@Dragonmasterxyz: My apologies. I had based part of my response on the thread's opening post's conclusion. This part:

"Normal, Fighting, Bug, Flying and Dragon Types: Weaknesses and resistances are to only be used in Pokemon vs Pokemon matches, otherwise they end up as arbitrary."

I suppose that was erroneous of me. My mistake.

In any case, I would wonder if the difference between Fighting & Normal isn't merely a difference in skill (That is, how capable someone is of executing something.) but rather the differences in METHODS of execution.

It's one thing to be able to water your plants in a perfect pattern with a watering can, which takes skill, it's another to water your plants by spraying them with a fire hose.

Being skilled in a SPECIFIC method may not always be to one's benefit in some situations. How are we sure that the most prominent difference between Normal & Fighting is the level of skill in what they do, rather than the methods of what they do? One is basic attacks, another is a type of ARTS; A fashion or style of something.

Regarding your example of Deoxys vs Saitama or Unskilled Fighter, I would say I think there's a basis behind Psychic resisting Fighting, but I'm not sure your example is to highlight stuff related to that, so I'm unsure if I should bring it up.

Likewise, Psychic vs Bug arguably do have reasoning behind why they hit harder. Although, outside of VsBattles involving Pokemon, I wouldn't apply Bug being "Super-Effective" against Psychic types; Non-Pokemon monsters aren't Bug-type or Psychic-type, nor are their attacks; I'm of the opinion that things not from Pokemon don't have Pokemon types, but can interact with Pokemon as though they have those types.
 
Being resistant to a skilled strikes but not an unskilled one is nonsensical though. Also, what fighting styles count as skilled? Street fighting is different from traditional martial arts but it's still deeper than just flailing about or swinging your arms.
 
Going to ask.

Where is this "unskilled not being resistant" even coming from if we're establishing the conception of resisting skilled ones? Normal type attacks arent resisted by anything san Ghosts in pokemon and its common sense that if a martial artists strikes don't harm you, a punch from an everyday 10 year old won't do any better in the slightest.
 
@Kukui and Imaginym

I am sorry, but to be blunt, this is a load of crap. It is completely nonsensical and the point you have brought up have not changed. All you've posted is walls of text trying to find loopholes in the system when the objective fact is that there isn't. No matter how much you attempt to rationalize it. An unskilled kick, regardless of execution should NOT be anymore resisted than a kick from a talentless scrub. Saying otherwise is completely, and I mean COMPLETELY nonsensical.

And now I am getting even more agitated with the obnoxious heat I have to deal with irl. I am leaving this thread for now to cool off (fguratively and literally. And before you guys say, "it's just a discussion", it's become more of me repeating the same facts over and over again to a bunch of brick walls). Dealing with Pokemon is such a pain...
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Going to ask.
Where is this "unskilled not being resistant" even coming from if we're establishing the conception of resisting skilled ones? Normal type attacks arent resisted by anything san Ghosts in pokemon and its common sense that if a martial artists strikes don't harm you, a punch from an everyday 10 year old won't do any better in the slightest.
Click to expand...
You mean the ENTIRE basis of the fighting type section in the first place? Kukui, why are you just now asking this?
 
Skilled & unskilled versions of the same move aren't necessarily identical, though. And I'd think it's hard to say, which, if any styles of fighting are inherently more skilled than others, since there's always stuff to be perfected in an art. However, the complexity of execution in techniques & the skill required to use them are definitely things.

& to Pokemon where being psionic, fairy-like, Dark, based on moving air or sound & other strange things may influence what type of attack it counts as, is it that absurd that how something is performed influences how it affects a Pokemon? Ambushing (Sucker Punch) is Dark, Playing Rough is Fairy. It would seem that the kind of actions is is influence what type of "move" it is to a Pokemon, wouldn't it?

Doing something skillfully & unskillfully are not doing the same action, & definitely aren't the same in an art. Ink calligraphy does not usually come out identically when done skillfully versus unskillfully, nor with sculpting clay, or folding paper or punching stone. The executions & product are different. Not entirely unalike, but I'd be hesitant to say they're always identical.
 
@Dragon

Since you said sorry first and that you are dealing with the massive heat, I won't take what you say personally (believe me, im not in any picnic where im at either...).

But anyway, before we go any further, answer me this. If I walk into a fight with someone whos very well known for being a great martial artist, they punch me, and I manage to take it head on without getting hurt, you really think I won't be able to do the same thing but much easier toward a talentless scrub acting like a punk? Lets get this answered first.

Btw, instead of "skilled", I think we should more so say "more powerful". Because obviously physical tolerance toward a guy with muscles is going to take any punch from an everyday average person any day of the month.
 
"Skilled & unskilled versions of the same move aren't necessarily identical, though. And I'd think it's hard to say, which, if any styles of fighting are inherently more skilled than others, since there's always stuff to be perfected in an art. However, the complexity of execution in techniques & the skill required to use them are definitely things."

Again, this does not matter in the slightest. The method of the attack and the execution of it does not change the simple fact that at the end of the day, the more skilled kick should NOT be resisted. The skilled kick is simply a better executed maneuver. Ergo, hither to, therefore, thusly, said effects while what the kick damages is different, the general element of said kick has not changed, only the skill and execution. By no means enough to make it resisted.

"& to Pokemon where being psionic, fairy-like, Dark, based on moving air or sound & other strange things may influence what type of attack it counts as, is it that absurd that how something is performed influences how it affects a Pokemon? Ambushing (Sucker Punch) is Dark, Playing Rough is Fairy. It would seem that the kind of actions is is influence what type of "move" it is to a Pokemon, wouldn't it?"

We can't attribute these things to other verses like that.
 
"But anyway, before we go any further, answer me this. If I walk into a fight with someone whos very well known for being a great martial artist, they punch me, and I manage to take it head on without getting hurt, you really think I won't be able to do the same thing but much easier toward a talentless scrub acting like a punk? Lets get this answered first. "

You are only arguing my point here.

"Btw, instead of "skilled", I think we should more so say "more powerful". Because obviously physical tolerance toward a guy with muscles is going to take any punch from an everyday average person any day of the month. "

This has nothing to do with anything I have said here.
 
A 10 year old wouldn't affect you for being physically weak, not for being untrained. That's AP rather than an accurate portrayl. And the thing is, some type resists fighting buy not normal, which is illogical outside the context of Pokemon.
 
Dragonmaster's right here. There's no logical difference between throwing a roundhouse kick or just doing a brute force punt kick. It doesn't make sense outside of Pokemon.
 
I thought the whole idea with the fighting type pokemon is that they use Aura (lucario being the main pokemon doing so) and so it's the idea those pokemon resist the Aura and not the physical aspect of the attack.
 
perhaps Aura wasn't the best way to put it... Ki or some kind of equivalent is what I'm trying to imply makes the difference between a Normal type move and a Fighting type move
 
I have been thinking, haven't there been incidents of Pokemon fighting with humans and otherwise dealing with things that aren't pokemon moves (like natural hurricanes, heat inside volcanoes etc).

Could studying situations like this give an idea of how pokemon would deal with characters from other verses whose, attacks and abilities don't adhere to the concept of pokemon moves?
 
Yeah, like the elements. However, like I've said, elemental stuff is not an issue.
 
Well I was more suggesting looking into how the fights with "normal" humans went for pokemon. It may help resolve the whole fighting vs normal moves debate.

If the problem is about deciding how type resistances will play out against people who don't use pokemon moves to fight, let's just look at how type resistances played out against people who didn't use pokemon moves to fight.
 
Wouldnt it be easier to see if aura can be linked to fighting moves? I still find it weird only aura sphere blatantly uses aura when all pokemon have aura. Then again that aura might be why the move never misses.
 
Aura is not exclusively Fighting type. That's a misconception due to the fact that Aura Sphere is a fighting move and Lucario who popularized Aura is part fighting. However, move like Dark Pulse and such are also Aura. This alone means that Aura is not exclusively Fighting. Not to mention Dark Aura and Fairy Aura.
 
IIRC, im pretty fairly certain the difference between Dark/Fairy Aura and Aura from Lucario's perspective is that the former is simply a dark/fairy energy that just increases the dark/fairy powers of Dark and Fairy Types and is just called "Aura". On the other hand, the latter is Aura in the sense of it being literal life energy from all things (even inanimate/non living objects in Pokemon have Aura. This is demonstrated greatly in the manga series for instance.)

It wouldnt make any sense that, for example, Dark Aura is the same as life energy Aura that Aura users control or else we'd be essentially saying Yveltal (the only Pokemon with this ability) gives Dark Types more life power to increase their own, and thats downright false on every level. Fairy Aura can be argued to be the same because of what Xerneas is, but Aura users being able to manipulate Aura from non-living things too can be what separates the 2. That. and Xerneas's life powers have nothing to do with typing.

We honestly shouldnt assume all auras in pokemon are 100% the same just because the word "Aura" is used in move/ability titles.
 
Just like we should treat all life energies as Fighting type either. Not to mention, Aura is not the main Pokemon energy source, iirc Infinity Energy is.
 
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