SSJ3 Goku 4-B/4-A Justification Change

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I read on SSJ3 Goku's profile that his 4-A rating is currently explained with:

Comparable to Anime Kid Buu, who gradually obliterated entire galaxies)

I believe this should be replaced with his own 4-A feat that he has, which would be cited before scaling.

The Feat



After Goku transforms into SSJ3, the following description is made in the manga and anime:
Manga:

と…とても信じられん…こ…この聖域にまでパワーがとどくなんて
I can't believe the power reached this sacred region

Anime:

地球からこの聖域にまでパワーがとどくなんて｡
I can't believe the power reached this sacred region from Earth

Herms98 translation:

Strength Checker • Kanzenshuu

www.kanzenshuu.com

Basically the same thing.

Put simply, it's stated that the power/force exerted by by Goku powering up into SSJ3 reached across the universe to the Kaioshin Realm. Said power was characterized through tremors caused by it, so this should be categorized as a universe shaking feat, which I have read is 4-A on this forum.

Further explanation

So as we know, Viz' translation (the most readily available and consumed version) wrote the dialogue above as "I can't believe we can feel it from here", which even though on it's own is kind of vague and could still still perfectly apply to the interpretation above, the most common interpretation actually ended up being that it was just referring to them being able to feel his Ki signature. Fortunately, the original Japanese, the anime subtitles (for which most of have probably only seen the dub which no one accounts for in feats), and Herms98's translation isn't so up to interpretation and its clear what it means.

But in the possibility that there's still some understandable confusion since they off-screened this part and only showed the Kaioshin Realm later, I'll go over why it isn't Ki sensing and is in fact the proposed explanation.

1. This statement is making absolutely no reference to they themselves sensing his Ki signature from the Kaioshin Realm. Conversely, it explicitly talks about how his power reached the Kaioshin Realm from Earth. Even the word used here is specifically とどく, which if one researches this word would come to see literally reach; come; arrive at. This is the key detail here that hammers home that this is not referring to sensing his Ki.

As we've been shown throughout the entire series and simply the entire principle of concepts like Instant Transmission, Ki signatures don't move or propagate like this "power" is stated to have propagated to the Kaioshin Realm, and are local to their bodies.

And for that matter, in the literal scene itself, it's already clarified that his Ki signature that they sense is on Earth, and so, the other description can't possibly be correlated to his Ki signature.

Even in a scene shortly after, we can clearly see that Ki signatures absolutely do not work how the "power" is described.

And finally, most damning of all details against this interpretation, a character with a far more and higher Ki than the SSJ3 Goku who did this feats' Ki signature is still described as "far far away (in the Kaioshin Realm)', in an equivalent contrast to Goku as in between the Earth and Kaioshin Realm.

Also notable here is the explicitly different wording used to describe Ultimate Gohan's Ki signature (チカラ) and SSJ3 Goku's power which reached the Kaioshin Realm above (パワー) .

Case in point, it's not referring to Ki sensing.

2. Semantically, it's made quite clear that power (パワー) in this scene is referring to the power/force exerted by Goku powering up.

地球全体が揺れている｡ こ… これが悟空のパワーか｡こんなに離れているのに｡
The entire Earth is shaking! Is this Goku's power? Even with us so far away?

Where the power (パワー) that was described to have reached the Kaioshin Realm is literally the exact same verbiage used to describe the force which from Goku powering up which shook the Earth.

地球全体を揺るがすほどの驚異的なパワーは、別次元にある界王神界にまで届き
An astounding power that shakes the entire Earth reaches even the Kaioshin Realm in a different dimension

Where even the Dragon Book confirms that the パワー (power) being referenced is the same exerted force from Goku that the shook the Earth (although I'm new to this forum and don't know if this source is considered canon/usable, so sorry for posting it if it isn't. It's the least important point here at any rate and just something I wanted to throw in).

Although as far as the anime goes, there's even an interesting visual in the anime that shows various planets and the cosmos being affected in the background as Goku powers up, and I can't see what else it would correlate to but what I explained, but I suppose it's somewhat vague.

ここまで気の圧力がとどいていてくるなんて
The force of his Ki is reaching this far

And even in the DBS anime (which I understand is treated as canon for manga DB and everything), we can see in a clearly contextually equivalent and worded with the exactly the same verb as the SSJ3 scene (とどいて), it clearly refers how far the exerted power from him powering up physically went, and also was characterized through tremors.

Conclusion:

So the proposal of this post would be that Anime SSJ3 Goku's 4-A rating description gets changed from "scales to Kid Buu who gradually destroyed galaxies" to something along the lines of "the power from his SSJ3 transformation reached across the universe", and a description for this scene is simply added for manga SSJ3 Goku.

 

[BOEGVELD]

Furthermore, Kaioshin immediately noticed the ki of the remaining humans disappearing once Buu killed them, so sensing beings on Earth from the Kaioshin Realm is not something special; They wouldn't have been this amazed from just being able to sense his ki.

I don't know if this is enough for 4-A though, but I agree with everything else you've said so far.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Furthermore, Kaioshin immediately noticed the ki of the remaining humans disappearing once Buu killed them, so sensing beings on Earth from the Kaioshin Realm is not something special; They wouldn't have been this amazed from just being able to sense his ki.

I don't know if this is enough for 4-A though, but I agree with everything else you've said so far.

Agreed. And I believe I read somewhere on this forum that shaking the universe is 4-A, unless that was outdated, I guess that's up to the experts for calculations and whatnot.

 

[Braking]

And again since I'm new to this forum, so I don't know if this is unusable as direct evidence either (albeit from a game, it's simply a description of the canon scene itself rather than something unique to the game), but just in case it adds anything, something perhaps worth adding:

nope. you cant use stuff from any of the games to add as evidence to the cannon series.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

nope. you cant use stuff from any of the games to add as evidence to the cannon series.

Noted, I'll delete that part.

 

[Jakepj1]

Makes sense. I do think solar system is quite a downplay as well for SSJ3 goku.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

This is really interesting, do note that this scales to canon too. However this would require a calculation and the magnitude of his power reaching the kai realm wasn't visibly noticable so it's weaker but significant.
I will wait for more opinions.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

This is really interesting, do note that this scales to canon too. However this would require a calculation and the magnitude of his power reaching the kai realm wasn't visibly noticable so it's weaker but significant.
I will wait for more opinions.

Well tbf, that page/panels from the Kaioshin Realm perspective were from completely after the transformation was already complete and the tremors would be over.

And to add to this, Something I forgot to point out in the OP, as Herms' translation states, the description is in past tense meaning it happened moments before that perspective (I believe this should also invalidate it being Ki sensing and hammer home it being tremors further, since Ki sensing is constant in the present and wouldn't make any sense to be described as a past tense event, but it makes for describing it as tremor which were over once he transformed fully) .

 

[Nierre]

following

 

[Vietthai96]

IIrc, the verse always shown that stronger power reach farther, for example, Gohan power get stronger allow Goku to sense his ki to use IT

nope. you cant use stuff from any of the games to add as evidence to the cannon series.

Actually you can, for example Ki is core concept of the verse, you can almost scale it between all media, or some other stuff, still you need solid evidences for that

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

IIrc, the verse always shown that stronger power reach farther, for example, Gohan power get stronger allow Goku to sense his ki to use IT


Actually you can, for example Ki is core concept of the verse, you can almost scale it between all media, or some other stuff, still you need solid evidences for that

That's because it becomes easier to sense the bigger the Ki is, the Ki signature itself doesn't move as meticulously detailed in the OP. If it reached farther the entire principle of IT would be invalidated which relies on teleporting to the source of the Ki signature where it is as we always see. If it was a matter of reaching farther (something which by just simply observing the manga and setting we clearly can see isn't the case of their Ki or Ki signature propagating/moving out of their bodies/the location they're at, it's literally not a thing. The concept of following and tracking Ki signatures completely invalidates this notion too) this wouldn't be possible. Goku goes to the Ki signature, not the other way around which makes no sense.



Even in that scene we clearly see in Goku's mental perspective that Gohan's Ki is on Earth when he senses it, Goku mentions it himself, Gohan's aura is only shown on Earth, and he teleports right to where Gohan is on Earth, which literally makes no sense under the notion that it was Gohan's Ki that reached Beerus' planet, because the IT which follows Ki goes to Earth, not to Beerus' planet. It would also be equally vacuous for SSJ3's power reaching the Kaioshin Realm to be an awe inspiring shocking feat if fatigued rusty SSJ Gohan with a foot in the grave supposedly did the same across a greater distance, or like when kid Trunks did it, and they clearly aren't the same phenomenon.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

nope. you cant use stuff from any of the games to add as evidence to the cannon series.

We do that with Solar System Cell tho

 

[Kin201]

Following. This is an interesting topic.

If this thread is accepted, then it will affect manga SSJ3 Goku and characters scale above him, yes?

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I believe so, the most important descriptions and the given context is exactly the same between the manga and anime adaptation.

 

[Braking]

We do that with Solar System Cell tho

what....

 

[AguilaR202]

We do that with Solar System Cell tho

We don’t, it’s just used to illustrate the feat.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Yeah guys forget the game citation I apologize for putting that, as I said I'm new to this forum and wasn't sure how supplementary material describing the canon like that is treated so I put it in case but I've removed it long ago. Let's just discuss the proposed details about the manga/anime.

 

[Damage3245]

Following. This is an interesting topic.

If this thread is accepted, then it will affect manga SSJ3 Goku and characters scale above him, yes?

I don't think so, no.

But I'm skeptical about this anyway; this isn't really an Attack Potency feat from what I can tell.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This isn't him shaking the universe, this is merely just his Ki can be sensed with interdimensional range. Not exactly quantifiable for AP and this is also historically a repeated topic.

 

[KLOL506]

I don't think so, no.

But I'm skeptical about this anyway; this isn't really an Attack Potency feat from what I can tell.

Shaking feats are attack potency feats, Damage.

Also this wouldn't apply to manga, anime only. Anime is where the visible shaking is shown I believe, and it's not just ki sensing as far as I can recall.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I read on the profiles that SSJ3 Goku from Fusion Reborn shaking the Otherworld is counted as a feat for his tier, and this is basically of the exact same nature and the only thing perhaps not made clear cut is the intensity of the tremors that reached the Kaioshin Realm, but I'm sure there's some minimum baseline that can be calculated for Gohan and the Kais to have been able to physically feel it to even notice.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

This isn't him shaking the universe, this is merely just his Ki can be sensed with interdimensional range. Not exactly quantifiable for AP and this is also historically a repeated topic.

The post explains in detail why this isn't referring to sensing his Ki here.

 

[KLOL506]

This isn't him shaking the universe, this is merely just his Ki can be sensed with interdimensional range. Not exactly quantifiable for AP and this is also historically a repeated topic.

Wait, so the Afterlife wasn't physically shaken in the anime either?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I read the text, and I haven't seen tremors happening anywhere beyond Earth. Also, saying his power "Reached the realm of the Kais" is simply referring to his power being felt and doesn't actually mean the realm of kais is being shaken. Only his power can be sensed there. And other "Shake" statements there sound more like people shaking with excitement rather than like a universal tremor.

It's different from the Fusion Reborn feat (Which we recently split from the Toei Anime) where he punched Janemba and the shockwave actually did shake the afterlife.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Yes, as the post details, the Kaioshin Realm perspective is shown after the transformation was completely over, where it is then described specifically as a past tense event as confirmed by Herms' translation, which doesn't follow if it was referring to them sensing his Ki which is a present constant.

Also, saying his power "Reached the realm of the Kais" is simply referring to his power being felt and doesn't actually mean the realm of kais is being shaken. Only his power can be sensed there.

But this is not how Ki sensing has ever been described or functioned. His Ki signature is on Earth and felt on earth from the Kaioshin Realm, it doesn't actually physically reach where it's being sensed from or the people sensing it (it literally just isn't how sensing Ki works), and it's still on Earth as confirmed in the scene itself.

The description in question power is evidently something different from Ki sensing, as it conversely says that Goku exerted power that physically reached/arrived at the Kaioshin Realm from Earth.

And as another user pointed out, Goku isn’t the only one can be sensed from there at all, even without actively searching for them just passively, they can easily sense the regular humans’ Ki.

And to add on to that, we can even clearly see how they could easily sense base non powered up Goten/Trunks before they entered the time chamber, and being sensed from the Kaioshin Realm is simply nothing unprecedented or impressive like how power from SSJ3 is described to.

And this is another contextual reason why it doesn’t follow to interpret it as Ki sensing, when they clearly describe it as an unprecedented phenomenon but being ki sensed from the Kaioshin Realm is basically nothing unprecedented and no matter on its own.

And perhaps I should've clarified, I'm not arguing that the Kaioshin Realm was shook with the same intensity that Earth was or something. I assume people are taking shake to mean a violent earthquake (although it's offscreened unfortunately so we can't say for sure it was or wasn't), but I'm simply saying that the same power shockwaves that shook the Earth extended to the Kaioshin Realm and had enough magnitude to be noticed/physically felt by Gohan and the Kais to even realize it, and I'm sure a bare quantifiable minimum can be derived for how much force that would take.

 

[BOEGVELD]

Yeah, he's not really shaking anything besides Earth, but his ki itself traveled throughout the universe and reached the Kaioshin Realm.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Yeah, he's not really shaking anything besides Earth, but his ki itself traveled throughout the universe and reached the Kaioshin Realm.

Why would it be 4-A then?

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Yeah, he's not really shaking anything besides Earth, but his ki itself traveled throughout the universe and reached the Kaioshin Realm.

The anime describes the power as the same force that shook the Earth. The only time we see him propagate any Ki is the final explosion of his aura when the transformation is completed, unless you mean that. In which case it could be like Gogeta's aura in Fusion Reborn but the anime clearly describes it as the former.

 

[Vizer04]

His Ki didn't shake the Universe, only Earth.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

His Ki didn't shake the Universe, only Earth.

Even if the intensity being the same as Earth is unclear (and I’ve even acknowledged that I’m not proposing it is and have rather requested someone knowledgeable calcs to decide a minimum value that can be used off the fact that it was simply powerful enough to be at least even just slightly noticeable to them), this is not the case, when the intensity of the power that reached the Kaioshin Realm was able to be physically felt or observed to even be noticed at all.

 

[Eseseso]

Maybe someone should calc this?

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Since finding the true intensity is an issue I hadn’t thought into, I wonder if it would even just end up as only 4-B using an absolute minimum.
Although that still would serve the proposal here which is just intended to add a better description for SSJ3 Goku’s tier and I think he has a 4-B tag anyways where it could be put (and I even saw on some profiles weaker feats being put for higher overall tiers) , so it shouldn’t be an issue, since this is not supposed to be an actual upgrade to his tier (since from what I read universe shaking is 4-A at best and it was using high intensity which this feat can’t be quantified to have had since it was as off screen.)

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

yeah you should probably put this in the calc request thread instead of assuming

 

[Aachintya31]

shaking with excitement rather than like a universal tremor.

Funny. Ngl

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Yes I suppose I will request that if this feat gets accepted first.

Anyway, something to add to this discussion that I hadn't considered to, since I thought the wording and all being exactly the same as Jiren shaking the far off stands would've been good enough, some more canonical examples with the same wording as SSJ3's power:

だが それじゃ僕にはとどかない
But that won't reach me

とどいた！悟空の攻撃が ジレンにとどいた！
It reached! Goku's attack reached Jiren!

And all these examples of this word's contextual usage, with the contextually and semantically equivalent description Jiren's power reaching the stands posted above, and how the Japanese dictionaries clearly cite the word used とどく as specifically meaning reach; arrive at; get at etc. , I think it's clear how what was said is completely incompatible with "sensing his Ki signature" (as that's local to Goku's body/soul on Earth and clearly does not actually literally go to and reach the Kaioshin Realm itself and is just felt from there), and as the outputted power in the scene which is described to have reached the Kaioshin Realm was hammered home as the shockwaves propagated from his powering up, this is what it must refer to.

Hopefully now the thread can progress from this topic about what it means to figuring out and calculating the level of this feat?

 

[KLOL506]

I read the text, and I haven't seen tremors happening anywhere beyond Earth. Also, saying his power "Reached the realm of the Kais" is simply referring to his power being felt and doesn't actually mean the realm of kais is being shaken. Only his power can be sensed there. And other "Shake" statements there sound more like people shaking with excitement rather than like a universal tremor.

It's different from the Fusion Reborn feat (Which we recently split from the Toei Anime) where he punched Janemba and the shockwave actually did shake the afterlife.

****.

 

[Braking]

#bringback3-BDB

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

What.

Also, is the DBS Manga considered as canon? I'm wondering since on the page I see that it's in the canon category but I always see mixed signals about this.

If it is, even in this work we can clearly see how just like when Buu wiped out humanity in Z, the Kais even without actively seeking out and not even initially paying attention to the situation on Earth can easily sense regular humans' Ki on Earth from there and this is simply no notable matter. So along with the clear cut wording of Goku's feat contradicting the notion of Ki sensing, even off other purely context clues it absolutely does not follow that being able to sense SSJ3 Goku's Ki on Earth would be noted as an awe inspiring unprecedented and in the Kais' own words "unbelievable" phenomenon.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I totally forgot about this post. Some details perhaps worth adding:

Even with us so far away?

The observers on Earth who can sense Ki were awestruck by SSJ3's "power" reaching where they were so far away (as pointed out above in this scene he even specifically equated the "power" to the shockwaves that were shaking the Earth.

Another contextual reason that "power" blatantly doesn't refer to sensing his Ki, because Namek/Android Saga fighters can be sensed verbatim anywhere on Earth, and even across space solar systems away such as SSJ1 Trunks and Frieza.

Chapter 337 (DBZ 143), P10.6 Context: noting that they can’t sense the androids Yamcha: “But we can’t feel any strong ki at all. If these guys were that amazing, we’d be able to know no matter where they were on Earth.” Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P1.4

Goku: “Well at any rate, who was it who defeated Freeza? That was an incredible ki. Was it Piccolo? Or Vegeta?” Note: obviously it wasn't either, but it might be notable that Goku at least felt it conceivable that Piccolo did it.

Chapter: 329 (DBZ 135), P11.5 Kuririn: “Did you feel it, Gohan!? That absolutely incredible ki!” Chapter: 329 (DBZ 135), P12.3 Tenshinhan: “It…it’s not just one…There’s another absurdly large ki…” Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P2.3-4 Gohan: “Ku-Kuririn-san, did you notice it!? F-Freeza and ano-another large ki that resembles Freeza…!!” Kuririn: “Y-yeah…There’s no way I couldn’t notice…ki this huge and gaudy…” Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P10.3 Yamcha: “Wh-what are you going to do when you get closer?...!! They’re un-unbelievable monsters, aren’t they? An…and there are two of them!! It…it’s hopeless, isn’t it...?!!”

Another detail worth pointing out should be that power パワー isn't necessarily used to describe Ki size or signature in any way, but rather specifically the force/energy one can put out:

Some examples for this from Herms Strength Checker, since spamming the scans would be tedious:

Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P14.3 Context: after fighting merged Piccolo for a long time No.17: “Heh. Even if our power is on par, it looks like a gap is starting to open up between our stamina…My energy is infinite, and never falls…”

Chapter: 387 (DBZ 193), P10.3, P13.1-4 Context: Goku just achieved Super Saiyan Grade III for the first time. Gohan: “Ab-absolutely incredible power! You’ll definitely be able to defeat Cell like this!” [ ] Goku: “I can’t win like this…Probably not…[ ] With my muscles swelled up like this, my power greatly increases, but it kills my speed. Huge power doesn’t mean anything if I can’t hit my opponent…And it uses up energy at too intense a rate. Balance-wise, regular Super Saiyan is best. I know that well enough…”

Chapter: 431 (DBZ 237), P13.5-7, P14.2-6 Context: taking the punch machine preliminaries test Kuririn: “Hey, don’t put too much power into it! You’ll break the machine.” No.18: “I know.” she hits it Referee guy: “Se-se-se-774!? I-I’m sorry, it seems to be malfunctioning! Wait a minute.”

Chapter: 421 (DBZ 227), P12.3 Context: talking about the ‘golden warrior’ Random guy: “He had absolutely incredible speed and power…! He knocked over the fleeing robbers’ car from a distance with a…what would you call it?...It looked like a kiai…”

Chapter: 371 (DBZ 177), P6.4 No.16: “According to my calculations, my power is about equal to Cell’s.”

Chapter: 373 (DBZ 179), P5.4, P6.1, P8.3 Cell: “Even I’m surprised at this magnificent speed…Obviously this is thanks to absorbing No.17…I wonder what my power’s like? [he blasts No.16] Hoh…Seems that’s gone up quite a bit too…”

Chapter: 411 (DBZ 217), P8.1 Context: after Cell bulks up Trunks: “He’s using a transformation that’s too concerned with power, so his speed can’t keep up…Cell himself is making the same mistake he pointed out to me…! He’s really lost it…”

Chapter: 414 (DBZ 220), P14.2 Context: after getting hit by Cell’s attack while saving Vegeta Gohan: “Cell’s power has gone up more than I thought…”

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P8.3 Cell: “I’ll keep absorbing human life energy unnoticed, and steadily increase my power. And once I’ve greatly exceeded the power of No.17 and No.18, I’ll force them to merge with me…!”

Chapter: 367 (DBZ 173), P14.3-5 Cell: “This fierce ki belongs to Piccolo, now that he’s merged with God...! And the only opponents who he’d fight with this much power are…No.17 and No.18! I’ve found you! What good timing! I’ll be there soon! Just you wait! My power already surpasses yours!”

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P2.3 Trunks: “3 years from this current era, on May 12th around 10:00 AM, a terrifying pair will appear on an island 9 kilometers to the southwest of South City…Monsters with tremendous power unlike anything in this world…”

And I can post the raw to confirm these statements translated used パワー if someone wants to check.
What can be observed here:

• "Power" is clearly distinguished from raw Ki size/signature in various quotes, such as Cell wanting to find out what his power's like after having already raised his Ki.
• The Androids, who literally didn't have a Ki signature or used Ki at the time having these same kinds of descriptions about パワー, further proving it just refers to the power/force they can put out.

And a scene like this should hammer home this point clearly enough.

- Vegeta while explaining to Dodoria how he learned to sense Ki on Earth, explicitly tells him that it's impossible to learn how to sense the Ki of someone if they specifically only focus on their パワー (translated to brute strength by even Viz), and this is establishes blatant distinction between power (force/brute strength) and Ki signature.

So the description here is evidently that the force/strength of SSJ3 put out by his powerup とどく (which literally means physically reach/arrive at/be delivered to) reaching the Kaioshin Realm means that the force itself and shockwaves of his transformation reached there.

Herms himself has also translated how in DB, パワー (power) is an explicitly distinguished stat from 気 (Ki), so there's that too.

At any rate, lowballing it to the absolute minimum value possible since it was off-screen past tense event, this would most definitely still be a 4-B shockwave, which should be a better description to be added for his 4-B tag than powerscaling from a statement.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Sorry if I'm late but did it ever get calced?