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Spiral into madness, Pennywise goes for a vacation

Either way, if Penny wants to, she could just basically nuke the whole city so it doesn't exist anymore. But that depends on which form of IT you're using.
 
penny wins

reasons casuality manip:does not affect any thing

reality warping:penny can counter the spiral with its own warping

mind manipulation:no just no

insect manip:no

bio manip:simply change his own form to either not be a biological creature or just whatever the spiral turns him into IT can go "no" and change back etc

nothing the spiral can do would ever be a threat to penny as IT has just more and better versions of the spirals power penny goes into town starts eating kids the spiral starts making kids weird penny goes "hah weird" then either stops the spiral or just waits it out

good fight idea
 
Is this even fair for both parties?

Pennywise has no way of actually hurting the spiral because it's a conceptual entity

IT LITERALLY IS THE CONCEPT OF THE SPIRAL

If we use deadlight then sure he owns because he trancends concepts (i doubt we are using that version)

But considering that the spiral can manifest itself as galaxies pennywise has no real way of hurting the spiral

So it's inc. due to the pennywise and spiral not being able to actually kill each other
 
number one when was the spiral ever stated to be the concept of spirals? its just an event that make wierd shit happens

number two those galaxies are listed as illusions

if it did become actual galaxies this would be a very different debate
 
Penny's AP isn't applicable over large ranges, or at least it never did. Penny isn't really a she either, it's a hermaphrodite as far as I'm aware.

Anyways, The Spiral is unknown in what it is, or if it is even sentient at all. It seems to have actual intelligent design, but then things it mutates (like the storm) have an intelligent of their own and thus any intelligent design could just be it's side effects.

Penny would probably be unable to affect an even with no mind or body. Likewise, The Spiral would just mutate an avatar that would just transform back, try to twist a mind beyond it's power, etc.

Now, I'm not sure how Penny would react to time manip. It's avatars are forced to work by the "logic" of said forms (like werewolves being weak to silver), so I'm not sure the avatar would be immune to it.

If it is immune then Penny just sees a city full of people go full batshit insane, the city get's swallowed up and he is just there... wondering what the **** just happened. I do wonder how the crazies of the town would react to Penny in their insanity tough...
 
And no, the galaxies were almost certainly illusions, the spirals range being limited in effect is pretty important to the story.
 
>illusions

>It has never actually made any illusions in any of the stories from the 19 chapters

>The Spiral outright either bends or creates space

>Every single event was presented and were not a illusion

>"Nah the spiral becoming a galaxy was a illusion"

The story of uzumaki is presented on the horror of the spiral, and it manifests itself basically everywhere

From a snail to a entire galaxies because they're spirals shapes the uzumaki is literally entirely for spirals how could one story be entirely an illusion because it is so
 
Except when it made people hallucinate their dead family telling them to join the spiral?

It can bend space sometimes, but it's hardly it's main effect. And bending space and creating galaxies are unrelated abilities.

False. There were plenty of times where the effects of the spiral were mental only, and the galaxy one has people's brain being messed with by radio waves as it's main deal.


And bull. The Spiral is limited to Kuruzi Chu, and the forest around it. That's why people going in to help people are stuck, but anyone outside is fine. It having a limited range is well established, and it's plain stated at the end that none of the galaxies were ever actually confirmed, which means everyone outside the city couldn't see them.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
Except when it made people hallucinate their dead family telling them to join the spiral?
It can bend space sometimes, but it's hardly it's main effect. And bending space and creating galaxies are unrelated abilities.

False. There were plenty of times where the effects of the spiral were mental only, and the galaxy one has people's brain being messed with by radio waves as it's main deal.


And bull. The Spiral is limited to Kuruzi Chu, and the forest around it. That's why people going in to help people are stuck, but anyone outside is fine. It having a limited range is well established, and it's plain stated at the end that none of the galaxies were ever actually confirmed, which means everyone outside the city couldn't see them.
Click to expand...
Pennywise has global influence I think.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
Except when it made people hallucinate their dead family telling them to join the spiral?
It can bend space sometimes, but it's hardly it's main effect. And bending space and creating galaxies are unrelated abilities.

False. There were plenty of times where the effects of the spiral were mental only, and the galaxy one has people's brain being messed with by radio waves as it's main deal.


And bull. The Spiral is limited to Kuruzi Chu, and the forest around it. That's why people going in to help people are stuck, but anyone outside is fine. It having a limited range is well established, and it's plain stated at the end that none of the galaxies were ever actually confirmed, which means everyone outside the city couldn't see them.
Click to expand...
Lets see what was the context of the situation

Firstly was with the yukie which was already ill from the spiral phobia, she saw her husband when a centipede rolled into a spiral shape

The Second time was when the Shuichi saw his dad into a spiral shape that was in a tree stump

The thrid time was when a man viewed the galaxies which were already a spiral shape

You do see a pattern why these guys get these supposed "illusions"

Also the man wasn't even the first one to see the spirals, it was kirie and her boyfriend


And spiral has effect all over the world as seen in the last chapters of uzumaki where people all over the world were influenced to come over to the Kurôzu-Cho town two form a perfect shaped spiral
 
None of that is proof that they are real. On the other hand, there is proof that the spiral has a limited range. But go make a crt, this is not the place to do it. And the very last line put in by Junji makes it pretty clear that the galaxies were fake, since it plain states that no such galaxies were actually recorded anywhere but at the town.

I quote: "According to the National Observatory's Data Analysis Center, none of the numerous galaxy sightings reported from Kurozi Cho were confirmed."

It sure is convenient that no-one but the town remembers the galaxies existed...

And them seeing it first is proof that it's somehow real?


And no, what are you talking about? They went to the city because two hurricane's wrecked the place and new broadcasts and help centers wanted to help. Which is why the amount of people that went to the town was really small.

They plain state that reporters went in after hurricane no. 2, but lost contact and some went in to fins out what was going on. He'll, it's pretty clearly implied that they enter the spiral's effects once they go through the tunnel, what with that being the cut-off point from where the gal could not escape, the "end of the tunnel" being mentioned several times while they were driving to the town, and the whole "moving fast makes tornadoes" only happening after they drove through it.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
None of that is proof that they are real. On the other hand, there is proof that the spiral has a limited range. But go make a crt, this is not the place to do it. And the very last line put in by Junji makes it pretty clear that the galaxies were fake, since it plain states that no such galaxies were actually recorded anywhere but at the town.
I quote: "According to the National Observatory's Data Analysis Center, none of the numerous galaxy sightings reported from Kurozi Cho were confirmed."

It sure is convenient that no-one but the town remembers the galaxies existed...

And them seeing it first is proof that it's somehow real?


And no, what are you talking about? They went to the city because two hurricane's wrecked the place and new broadcasts and help centers wanted to help. Which is why the amount of people that went to the town was really small.

They plain state that reporters went in after hurricane no. 2, but lost contact and some went in to fins out what was going on. He'll, it's pretty clearly implied that they enter the spiral's effects once they go through the tunnel, what with that being the cut-off point from where the gal could not escape, the "end of the tunnel" being mentioned several times while they were driving to the town, and the whole "moving fast makes tornadoes" only happening after they drove through it.
Click to expand...
>"None of that is proof that they are real."

They literally appear in front of them

There are people transforming into snails, A girl getting sucked inherself, vampire ladies, literal zombies, a spiral disease

they even appear in somke for gods sake

A living concept of a shape capable of manipulating space and time to it's own will and you're saying it cannot manipulate something that is a literal spiral

>"And the very last line put in by Junji makes it pretty clear that the galaxies were fake, since it plain states that no such galaxies were actually recorded anywhere but at the town.

I quote: "According to the National Observatory's Data Analysis Center, none of the numerous galaxy sightings reported from Kurozi Cho were confirmed.""

Buddy, i actually think you are missing out on what junji ito was meant to write this whole manga for...

it's literally influenced by H.P lovecraft from every last quote and artwork

Uzumaki is meant to be a cosmic horror, the fear of the unknown

In this case the spiral which is literally derived from H.P lovecraft as loose things that turn into chaos (which describe the entire plot of the manga)

And actually the entire chapter 20 was influenced by a book where HP lovecraft describes how universal laws works

>"And no, what are you talking about? They went to the city because two hurricane's wrecked the place and new broadcasts and help centers wanted to help. Which is why the amount of people that went to the town was really small.

They plain state that reporters went in after hurricane no. 2, but lost contact and some went in to fins out what was going on. He'll, it's pretty clearly implied that they enter the spiral's effects once they go through the tunnel, what with that being the cut-off point from where the gal could not escape, the "end of the tunnel" being mentioned several times while they were driving to the town, and the whole "moving fast makes tornadoes" only happening after they drove through it."

First problem

How would that even work, seeing that people coming there and not leaving it would technically warn people to not go there

and if you're telling me that a village can go from this to this in a matter of a few years by some random travellers it's kinda doubtful, that would take decades to complete and thousands of people

It can't be just a coincidence to go there, it drives people to come over it

and there was a story in H.P lovecraft where there were fishmen that serve the god dagon and they only influenced a single village if they wanted they could take over the world but they don't want to


and now to the actual fight of the thread

Pennywise VS The Spiral

and as i said there isn't anyway pennywise can hurt the spiral while spiral can

oh pennywise can made earthquakes? what's that gonna do to the spiral...
 
GribbleTheTrashMan said:
Ricsi-viragosi said:
None of that is proof that they are real. On the other hand, there is proof that the spiral has a limited range. But go make a crt, this is not the place to do it. And the very last line put in by Junji makes it pretty clear that the galaxies were fake, since it plain states that no such galaxies were actually recorded anywhere but at the town.
I quote: "According to the National Observatory's Data Analysis Center, none of the numerous galaxy sightings reported from Kurozi Cho were confirmed."

It sure is convenient that no-one but the town remembers the galaxies existed...

And them seeing it first is proof that it's somehow real?


And no, what are you talking about? They went to the city because two hurricane's wrecked the place and new broadcasts and help centers wanted to help. Which is why the amount of people that went to the town was really small.

They plain state that reporters went in after hurricane no. 2, but lost contact and some went in to fins out what was going on. He'll, it's pretty clearly implied that they enter the spiral's effects once they go through the tunnel, what with that being the cut-off point from where the gal could not escape, the "end of the tunnel" being mentioned several times while they were driving to the town, and the whole "moving fast makes tornadoes" only happening after they drove through it.
Click to expand...
>"None of that is proof that they are real."
They literally appear in front of them

There are people transforming into snails, A girl getting sucked inherself, vampire ladies, literal zombies, a spiral disease

they even appear in somke for gods sake

A living concept of a shape capable of manipulating space and time to it's own will and you're saying it cannot manipulate something that is a literal spiral

>"And the very last line put in by Junji makes it pretty clear that the galaxies were fake, since it plain states that no such galaxies were actually recorded anywhere but at the town.

I quote: "According to the National Observatory's Data Analysis Center, none of the numerous galaxy sightings reported from Kurozi Cho were confirmed.""

Buddy, i actually think you are missing out on what junji ito was meant to write this whole manga for...

it's literally influenced by H.P lovecraft from every last quote and artwork

Uzumaki is meant to be a cosmic horror, the fear of the unknown

In this case the spiral which is literally derived from H.P lovecraft as loose things that turn into chaos (which describe the entire plot of the manga)

And actually the entire chapter 20 was influenced by a book where HP lovecraft describes how universal laws works

>"And no, what are you talking about? They went to the city because two hurricane's wrecked the place and new broadcasts and help centers wanted to help. Which is why the amount of people that went to the town was really small.

They plain state that reporters went in after hurricane no. 2, but lost contact and some went in to fins out what was going on. He'll, it's pretty clearly implied that they enter the spiral's effects once they go through the tunnel, what with that being the cut-off point from where the gal could not escape, the "end of the tunnel" being mentioned several times while they were driving to the town, and the whole "moving fast makes tornadoes" only happening after they drove through it."

First problem

How would that even work, seeing that people coming there and not leaving it would technically warn people to not go there

and if you're telling me that a village can go from this to this in a matter of a few years by some random travellers it's kinda doubtful, that would take decades to complete and thousands of people

It can't be just a coincidence to go there, it drives people to come over it

and there was a story in H.P lovecraft where there were fishmen that serve the god dagon and they only influenced a single village if they wanted they could take over the world but they don't want to


and now to the actual fight of the thread

Pennywise VS The Spiral

and as i said there isn't anyway pennywise can hurt the spiral while spiral can

oh pennywise can made earthquakes? what's that gonna do to the spiral...
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter what inspired Uzumaki.
 
Go make a crt. This was already rejected, and none of what you said is proof.

There is no proof but your headcanon that the spiral is the concept. Or that it's living and sentient.


Yeah, no. What it's inspired from means nothing. Existential horror meant to make you helpless doesn't equate to any tier, let alone tier 3.


What are you talking about? It's explained in the chapter... There were two hurricanes, some new reporters went in, but another four storms went in and they lost contacts. Some people got curior and preoccupied, so after the storms ended they went back in. If you think people will not go to a location where several people are probably in danger, than you underestimate the empathy of people in general.

The Spiral city is also explained. It's the people in the shacks that built it so they would have more space while their bodies get stretched out more and more. And the characters plain state that this would need to take "days", after which they realize that they lost their perception of time while in the forest. See that days part there? The Manga states it wouldn't take years, and they claim that while knowing the amount of people is limited, too.


And Pennywise can do a lot more than earthquakes. It dwarves most of the H.P. monsters you keep trying to use as proof, for one.
 
yeah that still confuses me why you think that the spiral is the literal concept of the spiral

it was never stated it was just what it was called when weird shit happend around town and then we decided the spiral was a good name

its an event where the people try to wrap their heads around wtf is happening

you have no proof that the galaxies were real because it was stated that it didnt occur other then that one time when two people who has already been touched by the spiral sees shit go crazy in the sky

penny vs the spiral

penny seem to be able to do more and better then the spiral in every way the only difference is that penny is an intelligent creature he just doesnt what he can do most of the time
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
Go make a crt. This was already rejected, and none of what you said is proof.
There is no proof but your headcanon that the spiral is the concept. Or that it's living and sentient.


Yeah, no. What it's inspired from means nothing. Existential horror meant to make you helpless doesn't equate to any tier, let alone tier 3.


What are you talking about? It's explained in the chapter... There were two hurricanes, some new reporters went in, but another four storms went in and they lost contacts. Some people got curior and preoccupied, so after the storms ended they went back in. If you think people will not go to a location where several people are probably in danger, than you underestimate the empathy of people in general.

The Spiral city is also explained. It's the people in the shacks that built it so they would have more space while their bodies get stretched out more and more. And the characters plain state that this would need to take "days", after which they realize that they lost their perception of time while in the forest. See that days part there? The Manga states it wouldn't take years, and they claim that while knowing the amount of people is limited, too.


And Pennywise can do a lot more than earthquakes. It dwarves most of the H.P. monsters you keep trying to use as proof, for one.
Click to expand...
I mean you're right for something that this is a thread about pennywise vs spiral and i should create a seprate thread for this discussion


So getting back to discussion

>"And Pennywise can do a lot more than earthquakes. It dwarves most of the H.P. monsters you keep trying to use as proof, for one."

what are you even talking about?

I wasn't even trying to scale the spiral to any of the H.P lovecrafts monsters which for some reason you actually thought i was actually trying too

i just gave an example how similar the story of the fishmen village to the uzumaki were which i didn't say they scale to

And what can pennywise do other than cause earthquakes, because i don't think we are using a the deadlights version of it

Here's why i suggested that it was a Incon.

Pennywise doesn't have any ways of harming the spiral because it doesn't have any physical form

and the spiral cannot truly kill pennywise
 
Pennywise can just wait until the spiral ends, much like Suichi wanted Kirie to do, for one.

That's an auto-victory.


And penny can take just about any form as long as it's prey feels it's scary, so going for Kiries's brother might make it take the form of Godzilla for all that it matters.
 
hell i think it would be like a feast for pennywise why would he want to destroy it when it makes such fear for him to eat just change a couple things and boom hes getting more food then he ever got from his old place

back onto the fight

if its avatar key then penny wins via wait

if its true form do i need to explain why true form penny wins?
 
You guys actually confirmed to me that you have never read uzumaki before

By your guys standards this isn't even a fight because your only reason for pennywises win is because he can just wait...

Spiral will always be there until it destroys the entire town, then after a century or so it comes back to destroy the place again which was confirmed in chapter 15

What's even the point of this fight when neither opponent can kill each other

Pennywise wouldn't stay there because there wouldn't be anything to feed on

Because spiral will only leave once everything is dead which pennywise very clearly makes it obvious that it isn't going to happen

so again it's a stalemate
 
i have read uzamaki but it seems that i have forgetten several details sorry about that

the issue is with both of these characters is that we have never seen them deal with entities like them. penny has no feats against people that is close to him. the only real feats we have is maturin and that is not applicable

so

its just we pretty much know as a fact that the spiral cannot kill pennywise, but the real question is pennys abilities destroy or stop the spiral

we have no clue what the durability of the spiral is but will the spiral try to defend itself? its says it has no sentience it just does what it does

pennywises best bet is to either reality warp the spiral to stop or just plain nuking the town

and since my knowledge is a little fuzzy about the spiral would any of these ways or are there any other way that penny can win?

i think that penny can with superior abilities be able to "contain" the spiral or somehow control it i dont know thats just what i think.
 
No, the spiral is actually pretty much sentient and actually acknowledges the people of town as shown in chapter 12 where it literally chased down kirie

and i'm pretty sure if pennywise tried to nuke the town the spiral won't be effected in any way because and for some reason it isn't stated in the wiki it doesn't have any type of physical form

And either way the spiral itself destroys the town

so that's why i'm betting on stalemate
 
You forgot about the new reporters being explained, don't you go around saying "you confirmed to not have read it".

The only thing I remember in chaos about the spiral destroying the towns is the ancient map. Which doesn't disprove my point at all, because there is no reason to assume it prolongs it's effects until the town is destroyed, instead of just assuming that it periodically twists anything in it's range.

There definitely is no reason to assume it would stick around for a single being. The snake people were still alive, for one, and everyone in the houses were still alive, and it still just stopped after absorbing them.

It would make the town into a spiral, absorb it, and Penny would just be there wondering what the **** just happened.
 
And no, the hurricane is not the spiral. Which is why none of the successors besides the first are really interested in Kirie at all.


And if it was sentient then it's sentience gets sent to the deadlights for Penny's true form to feed on.
 
so destroying the town would not work

but if it is sentient that makes it easier for penny to defeat the spiral because deadlights

i mean can i get a straight answer on this CAN PENNY STOP THE SPIRAL USING ANY METHOD HE HAS
 
We don't even know if the spiral is sentient at all, or how in any way pennywise can interact with it, it seems to be sentient but we don't know anything about how it functions at all, also I doubt pennywise can mind hax things as "abstract" as this
 
Hykuu said:
We don't even know if the spiral is sentient at all, or how in any way pennywise can interact with it, it seems to be sentient but we don't know anything about how it functions at all, also I doubt pennywise can mind hax things as "abstract" as this
Click to expand...
Still though, Penny should be able to destroy it. His enemy is a 1-A tier being and even that one can't defeat him.
 
wdym by 1A are you talking about maturin if so this is talking about pennys avatar form not his true deadlights form

please expand on what you mean
 
its not really applicable to bring maturin up we are talking about entirely different tiers of characters deadlights are only applicable in this conversation when we are talking about how the avatar form can use it

so lets just get rid of any thoughts about maturin and the deadlights besides the mind hax one

ok. ok so

strength doesnt matter

speed doesnt matter

endurance and stamina dont matter

hax are the only way that penny is going to take out the spiral

if the spiral has a mind then penny wins just by going "hey wanna see me naked"

if the spiral doesnt have a mind then its either incon or penny wins again with superior abilities
 
Deerofdreams said:
its not really applicable to bring maturin up we are talking about entirely different tiers of characters deadlights are only applicable in this conversation when we are talking about how the avatar form can use it
so lets just get rid of any thoughts about maturin and the deadlights besides the mind hax one

ok. ok so

strength doesnt matter

speed doesnt matter

endurance and stamina dont matter

hax are the only way that penny is going to take out the spiral

if the spiral has a mind then penny wins just by going "hey wanna see me naked"

if the spiral doesnt have a mind then its either incon or penny wins again with superior abilities
Click to expand...
Pretty much this.
 
You kill the avatar, you kill or terribly injure Deadlights!Pennywise. Its pretty clear in the book.
 
PaChi2 said:
You kill the avatar, you kill or terribly injure Deadlights!Pennywise. Its pretty clear in the book.
Click to expand...
They only manage to do that by being blessed tough, no? Plus, the most direct damage the spiral can make is making a hurricane throw rubble at it, or throw some twisters that can rip people apart at him, assuming 8t would have the intelligence for that.
 
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