Speed of light = High 3-A and infinite speed evidence?

[TheUnshakableOne]

Kentic energy is stated to be used for AP of attacks. 1 statement in series. The 2 others are guidebook. With one guidebook showing a graph that shows what characters "exploit physics" for AP and those who relies on Hax.

We also then have a very detailed explanation from WoG about how speed = power in punches and kicks.

Then, we have 2 instances where the speed of light is used to move in a time stop. Both instances specifically states its due to the speed of light, and its stated that time is non functional at the speed of light.

Light speed movement is stated to overcome time stop. Emphasis is put on "movement at the speed of light."

We also have a 2 instances characters whom are stated to be at "the speed of light" in verse who end up parrying, Dodging, counter attacking, reacting, and attacking with (and to) "infinite attacks." And stated to be doing "infinite number of punches" to counter "an infinite number of projectiles"

Edit:

Forgot to mention this but. The universe is stated to be infinite sized. A character was sent to the Universes "edge" and then an explosion occurred and the "light" from the explosion instantly reached earth as fast as the explosion occured.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

this reminds me of Fire Force, where speed of light is basically able to perform feats that you'd typically see from Immeasurable speed characters, but he's indexed at SoL to FTL on the wiki. in that same manner, because there's a lot of emphasis on just the speed of light, it could simply just be speed of light.

now this isn't very discreet, and i doubt you wanted to be, i know it concerns Saint Seiya. the fact that time is stated to be non-functional at SoL tells me that the verse likely just follows relativity to some extent.

the last statement, IMO, is confusing, although it seems like this could bring infinite something as even doing infinite attacks each at light speed could qualify for infinite speed i think, you'd ask why they wouldn't attack at infinite speed instead of just light speed so i'm not really sure about this one. the first few examples though really is just textbook SoL movement

 

[Digital_Franz]

For the SoL question and time stop, I think the speed page on the wiki covers that. It all depends on the verse here.

For "infinite attacks" and all, it may just be a way of speaking to denote a large number of attacks, although it is quite confusing.

 

[Hasty12345]

Half the feats listed here the characters are stated FTL

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Half the feats listed here the characters are stated FTL

i mean we both know its saint seiya but technically she didn't name any characters

 

[Jaakor48]

Doesn't this just mean their universe operates on einstein model? Where light speed and above does all that?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Doesn't this just mean their universe operates on einstein model? Where light speed and above does all that?

Maybe, but I'm just curious if this makes light speed high 3-A and instant speed.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Forgot to mention this but. The universe is infinite sized. A character was sent to the Universes "edge" and then an explosion occurred and the "light" from the explosion instantly reached earth as fast as the explosion occured.

 

[Vietthai96]

Actually, in General Relativity, moving at speed of light mean you are infinitely fast, so there are verses like Fire Force where move faster than light cause travel backward in time, due to GR causality is bound within the limit of speed of light, faster than light mean you faster than causality

 

[Jaakor48]

Maybe, but I'm just curious if this makes light speed high 3-A and instant speed.

No, it's a verse mechanic,not follows general relativity/ Einstein theory, it makes light, light speed . It just happens that going light speed in that verse allows you do this things, ironically this would make it harder to actuality prove that someone has actual infinite speed and not LS or FTL speed

As an example, if you take another character from another verse, who is FTL and bring him into this verse, they would also have these infinite feats, but if you pull people from that verse ad take them to other non Einstein verses, they'd just be LS/FTL

You don't upgrade based on verse/place mechanics

 

[Digital_Franz]

Forgot to mention this but. The universe is infinite sized. A character was sent to the Universes "edge" and then an explosion occurred and the "light" from the explosion instantly reached earth as fast as the explosion occured.

Where did the explosion happen? Not sure if the distance between the explosion and the ground is infinite.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Where did the explosion happen? Not sure if the distance between the explosion and the ground is infinite.

Infinite distance away

 

[Digital_Franz]

Infinite distance away

I believe Vietthai96's answer still stands in this case.

 

[Flashlight237]

Technically, yes, going at the speed of light would be High 3-A just because KE approaches infinite as you reach the speed of light, but at the same time, light itself is massless, which practically cancels that out anyway. Thing is, this site caps off KE at a certain point, around 4x normal KE or ~93% the speed of light (someone tried to change that, but I don't think that went anywhere. I was personally for 95% at the time.) This is because fiction tends to ignore concepts like real-world physics at times, especially works of fiction that involve space travel and lasers. It's kinda ironic considering acceleration itself can do whatever the hell it wants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(acceleration)

 

[Vietthai96]

No, it's a verse mechanic,not follows general relativity/ Einstein theory, it makes light, light speed . It just happens that going light speed in that verse allows you do this things, ironically this would make it harder to actuality prove that someone has actual infinite speed and not LS or FTL speed

As an example, if you take another character from another verse, who is FTL and bring him into this verse, they would also have these infinite feats, but if you pull people from that verse ad take them to other non Einstein verses, they'd just be LS/FTL

You don't upgrade based on verse/place mechanics

well, due to vsbw rule, yeah this is correct

Maybe, but I'm just curious if this makes light speed high 3-A and instant speed.

well, go light speed, yeah high 3-a, since you need infinite energy to reach light speed, but well, we not going to handle everyone H3A or infinite speed cause uhhhh, General Relativity

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Technically, yes, going at the speed of light would be High 3-A just because KE approaches infinite as you reach the speed of light, but at the same time, light itself is massless, which practically cancels that out anyway. Thing is, this site caps off KE at a certain point, around 4x normal KE or ~93% the speed of light (someone tried to change that, but I don't think that went anywhere. I was personally for 95% at the time.) This is because fiction tends to ignore concepts like real-world physics at times, especially works of fiction that involve space travel and lasers. It's kinda ironic considering acceleration itself can do whatever the hell it wants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(acceleration)

So even if the "speed of light/light speed movements" has infinite speed feats like using it travel infinite distance or doing infinite punches. The wiki still caps the AP of such a thing?

Just asking for for clarification

 

[Vietthai96]

Also, for better explanation, our real world physics is far more complex than just, General Relativity go bruhh, the reason lightspeed is infinitely fast is due to Special Relativity, which the faster you go, your clock tick slower, the moment you reach speed of light, your clock stop, just time is stopped, so in that case, you can move to anywhere instantly, due to time in your perspective is stopped, still in other points of view, speed of light is only 299 792 458 m/s. Sure, moving at speed if light is infinitely fast, but that is only from the PoV of light or anything that move at that speed, to other PoV, it is still a finite speed

So even if the "speed of light/light speed movements" has infinite speed feats. The wiki still caps the AP of such a thing?

yeah, generally speaking and it cap both speed and AP, unless special cases, but well, i personally still not yet seeing such cases so idk how to qualify

 

[Flashlight237]

So even if the "speed of light/light speed movements" has infinite speed feats like using it travel infinite distance or doing infinite punches. The wiki still caps the AP of such a thing?

Just asking for for clarification

Speed of light is still speed of light. No amount of flowery language is changing that.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Also, for better explanation, our real world physics is far more complex than just, General Relativity go bruhh, the reason lightspeed is infinitely fast is due to Special Relativity, which the faster you go, your clock tick slower, the moment you reach speed of light, your clock stop, just time is stopped, so in that case, you can move to anywhere instantly, due to time in your perspective is stopped, still in other points of view, speed of light is only 299 792 458 m/s. Sure, moving at speed if light is infinitely fast, but that is only from the PoV of light or anything that move at that speed, to other PoV, it is still a finite speed


yeah, generally speaking and it cap both speed and AP, unless special cases, but well, i personally still not yet seeing such cases so idk how to qualify

Weird.

Because aside from the KE stuff in attacks

Movement at light speed hard counters time stop emphasis on movement

And light speed movement is needed to travel infinite distance and do infinite attacks (infinite not infinitely expand)

And it's used to escape the center of a black hole

I mean usually those things are infinite speed but their stated to be light speed movements

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Speed of light is still speed of light. No amount of flowery language is changing that.

What if there was shown feats on panel not statements?

 

[Executor_N0]

The thing is, when applying relativistic concepts, you need to understand that there are different perceptions of movement according to the observer. The "simple numbering" you have is more like a "universal outsider observer". When you start to look into the perception of the inside or other in-movement observers when relativistic concepts apply, the difference can approach infinite as the speed reaches the absolute value of lightspeed.

This means that at lightspeed, your perception of the outside is infinitely faster, you won't even feel time moving and you would perceive every place you ever were as being the same moment, you wouldn't feel distance and you wouldn't feel time. In the same way, as you "move faster than light", you are "beyond time and space" in some sense (Which is one of the many ways that FTL actually breaks relativity as you break causality).

So yes, lightspeed in the perspective of lightspeed characters is "infinite" (It's only not infinite from the outside perspective, as you can trace the finite distance that the character is actually crossing, but from the inside, all of time and space it'll experience is the same thing). If you just search for "photon's perspective", you might find a lot of articles giving comments on such idea.

The tiering system this site uses goes with relativity to a certain point (That is, you won't use relativity to non-near lightspeed feats, but also don't for very near light-speed feats). From SoL to FTL, it's assumed it works with just values from the outside perspective with no relativity effect and it goes on until infinite values. From immeasurable and beyond, it's more of a vague "breaks orderly space-time" stuff to describe something that is "outside conventional movement by increasing the numerical speed value".

This, of course, means that feats that are SoL and FTL in certain series will fit Infinite and Immeasurable, but are normally not accepted as such because our system is projected to overwrite any such stuff from being reflected in the profiles. There have been various attempts to change how speed works here, some wanting to allow for Newtonian physics to apply to FTL series that show no relativistic effects or allow series that properly portray relativity to have SoL and FTL feats to be accepted as Infinite and Immeasurable, but nothing like that was ever accepted from what I recall.

The closest that is accepted, from what I know, is with DC due to the Flash and Speed Force stuff just being so inconsistent to how it works, that the sheer amount of very clearly immeasurable "beyond space-time feats" just needs to get accepted, at least it's what I understood from my very limited outside perspective.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Actually, in General Relativity, moving at speed of light mean you are infinitely fast, so there are verses like Fire Force where move faster than light cause travel backward in time, due to GR causality is bound within the limit of speed of light, faster than light mean you faster than causality

this. and yet FF is still SoL or FTL here

 

[Digital_Franz]

The thing is, when applying relativistic concepts, you need to understand that there are different perceptions of movement according to the observer. The "simple numbering" you have is more like a "universal outsider observer". When you start to look into the perception of the inside or other in-movement observers when relativistic concepts apply, the difference can approach infinite as the speed reaches the absolute value of lightspeed.

This means that at lightspeed, your perception of the outside is infinitely faster, you won't even feel time moving and you would perceive every place you ever were as being the same moment, you wouldn't feel distance and you wouldn't feel time. In the same way, as you "move faster than light", you are "beyond time and space" in some sense (Which is one of the many ways that FTL actually breaks relativity as you break causality).

So yes, lightspeed in the perspective of lightspeed characters is "infinite" (It's only not infinite from the outside perspective, as you can trace the finite distance that the character is actually crossing, but from the inside, all of time and space it'll experience is the same thing). If you just search for "photon's perspective", you might find a lot of articles giving comments on such idea.

Makes sense.

The tiering system this site uses goes with relativity to a certain point (That is, you won't use relativity to non-near lightspeed feats, but also don't for very near light-speed feats). From SoL to FTL, it's assumed it works with just values from the outside perspective with no relativity effect and it goes on until infinite values. From immeasurable and beyond, it's more of a vague "breaks orderly space-time" stuff to describe something that is "outside conventional movement by increasing the numerical speed value".

This, of course, means that feats that are SoL and FTL in certain series will fit Infinite and Immeasurable, but are normally not accepted as such because our system is projected to overwrite any such stuff from being reflected in the profiles. There have been various attempts to change how speed works here, some wanting to allow for Newtonian physics to apply to FTL series that show no relativistic effects or allow series that properly portray relativity to have SoL and FTL feats to be accepted as Infinite and Immeasurable, but nothing like that was ever accepted from what I recall.

It's quite complicated. Although I understand part of the reasoning behind how the wiki works regarding this point.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The thing is, when applying relativistic concepts, you need to understand that there are different perceptions of movement according to the observer. The "simple numbering" you have is more like a "universal outsider observer". When you start to look into the perception of the inside or other in-movement observers when relativistic concepts apply, the difference can approach infinite as the speed reaches the absolute value of lightspeed.

This means that at lightspeed, your perception of the outside is infinitely faster, you won't even feel time moving and you would perceive every place you ever were as being the same moment, you wouldn't feel distance and you wouldn't feel time. In the same way, as you "move faster than light", you are "beyond time and space" in some sense (Which is one of the many ways that FTL actually breaks relativity as you break causality).

So yes, lightspeed in the perspective of lightspeed characters is "infinite" (It's only not infinite from the outside perspective, as you can trace the finite distance that the character is actually crossing, but from the inside, all of time and space it'll experience is the same thing). If you just search for "photon's perspective", you might find a lot of articles giving comments on such idea.

The tiering system this site uses goes with relativity to a certain point (That is, you won't use relativity to non-near lightspeed feats, but also don't for very near light-speed feats). From SoL to FTL, it's assumed it works with just values from the outside perspective with no relativity effect and it goes on until infinite values. From immeasurable and beyond, it's more of a vague "breaks orderly space-time" stuff to describe something that is "outside conventional movement by increasing the numerical speed value".

This, of course, means that feats that are SoL and FTL in certain series will fit Infinite and Immeasurable, but are normally not accepted as such because our system is projected to overwrite any such stuff from being reflected in the profiles. There have been various attempts to change how speed works here, some wanting to allow for Newtonian physics to apply to FTL series that show no relativistic effects or allow series that properly portray relativity to have SoL and FTL feats to be accepted as Infinite and Immeasurable, but nothing like that was ever accepted from what I recall.

The closest that is accepted, from what I know, is with DC due to the Flash and Speed Force stuff just being so inconsistent to how it works, that the sheer amount of very clearly immeasurable "beyond space-time feats" just needs to get accepted, at least it's what I understood from my very limited outside perspective.

I like your explanation but let's say all statements aside, light speed is used to cross an infinite distance. Light speed by statement but by actions it's obviously not that though from that feat

Just 1 of couple differences

Like it's only stated to be light speed but feats are contrary

 

[Executor_N0]

Makes sense.

It's quite complicated. Although I understand part of the reasoning behind how the wiki works regarding this point.

If I were to give an explanation for why nothing was ever accepted regarding this, it's mostly the way the comparisons would work between different universes.

SoL and non-infinite FTL characters in a Relativistic universe have a very clear difference in the inside perspective and outside, which doesn't happen with SoL and non-infinite FTL in non-relativistic universes.

If you have a 3 light-year road to be crossed by a SoL character in a Relativistic universe, he would need 3 years to cross that distance. The character won't feel that time passing, in fact, it wouldn't even feel the distance it crossed, but you from the outside can clearly see that it took time to cross a distance.

An FTL character that is thousands of times faster than light in a non-relativistic universe, could cross such a distance in basically no time at all. It certainly would feel that some time passed and that it crossed a distance, but did so much "faster" from the outside perspective than the SoL character from the Relativistic universe.

When you need to compare, you can notice that there are differences in applications. In series such as Marvel in the times they go hard-sci-fi, they actually respect the limit of light-speed and the effects of relativity, but if they wanted to cross light-year distances, they would need to access a different region of space, like a pocket parallel dimension, that follows non-relativistic rules to achieve FTL speeds.

Some series seem to just allow characters to choose what rules they follow, I remember a DC scan that had Superman being stated to both "move faster than light with no relativistic effects" or "move under the speed of light with relativistic effects", meaning he can either chose non-relativity to cross great distances, or relativity to cross small-distances while having the powerful effects of relativity.

In general, we would need to create some kind of "different tiering" to adapt the values of each character in-universe with different rules to fit this "same tiering". Just vaguely stating, if we were to go with energy values, you could show what near-SoL value from a relativistic universe could be FTL in a non-relativistic universe that follows something like Newtonian physics, so we could in a way, tier near-SoL as FTL for those proposes.

But I guess it reaches a point in which we are using too much mechanical translation to make franchises of different universes follow more or less the same rules. It could be possible, but I don't see that happening.

 

[Digital_Franz]

If I were to give an explanation for why nothing was ever accepted regarding this, it's mostly the way the comparisons would work between different universes.

SoL and non-infinite FTL characters in a Relativistic universe have a very clear difference in the inside perspective and outside, which doesn't happen with SoL and non-infinite FTL in non-relativistic universes.

If you have a 3 light-year road to be crossed by a SoL character in a Relativistic universe, he would need 3 years to cross that distance. The character won't feel that time passing, in fact, it wouldn't even feel the distance it crossed, but you from the outside can clearly see that it took time to cross a distance.

An FTL character that is thousands of times faster than light in a non-relativistic universe, could cross such a distance in basically no time at all. It certainly would feel that some time passed and that it crossed a distance, but did so much "faster" from the outside perspective than the SoL character from the Relativistic universe.

When you need to compare, you can notice that there are differences in applications. In series such as Marvel in the times they go hard-sci-fi, they actually respect the limit of light-speed and the effects of relativity, but if they wanted to cross light-year distances, they would need to access a different region of space, like a pocket parallel dimension, that follows non-relativistic rules to achieve FTL speeds.

Some series seem to just allow characters to choose what rules they follow, I remember a DC scan that had Superman being stated to both "move faster than light with no relativistic effects" or "move under the speed of light with relativistic effects", meaning he can either chose non-relativity to cross great distances, or relativity to cross small-distances while having the powerful effects of relativity.

In general, we would need to create some kind of "different tiering" to adapt the values of each character in-universe with different rules to fit this "same tiering". Just vaguely stating, if we were to go with energy values, you could show what near-SoL value from a relativistic universe could be FTL in a non-relativistic universe that follows something like Newtonian physics, so we could in a way, tier near-SoL as FTL for those proposes.

But I guess it reaches a point in which we are using too much mechanical translation to make franchises of different universes follow more or less the same rules. It could be possible, but I don't see that happening.

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Digital_Franz]

I like your explanation but let's say all statements aside, light speed is used to cross an infinite distance. Light speed by statement but by actions it's obviously not that though from that feat

Just 1 of couple differences

Like it's only stated to be light speed but feats are contrary

The problem is that the author states that it is SoL. Maybe in special cases it can be accepted otherwise. It all depends on the evidence, the context and the staff.

 

[Executor_N0]

I like your explanation but let's say all statements aside, light speed is used to cross an infinite distance. Light speed by statement but by actions it's obviously not that though from that feat

Just 1 of couple differences

Like it's only stated to be light speed but feats are contrary

Speaking just about being possible, works can have their own definitions of terms that are in a scope differently from terms here. Just like you can have an island that is actually a multiverse seen from the outside, you can have any number of in-universe terms have their own definition.

The problem is mostly consistency. Like, DC got to have Speed Force SoL/FTL statements accepted as Immeasurable due to how common and overused those are there.

If you an prove that with no contradictory concepts, it could be possible. But if you have stuff like stating the finite value or a finite usage of the value (Like stating things comparable to real-life SoL), that would be no good.

Basically, works can have their own concepts that go outside the use of the same terms in the tiering system and people here tend to accept those when there's both enough evidence and no opposition to it in-universe, or in cases when there's, it can be accepted if there's an in-universe explanation for the seemingly discrepancy, or if there's an absolutely absurd amount of evidence that takes over the contradictions (Again, the Flahses once had it due to being Basically half a century of historical evidence for that interpretation).

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Speaking just about being possible, works can have their own definitions of terms that are in a scope differently from terms here. Just like you can have an island that is actually a multiverse seen from the outside, you can have any number of in-universe terms have their own definition.

The problem is mostly consistency. Like, DC got to have Speed Force SoL/FTL statements accepted as Immeasurable due to how common and overused those are there.

If you an prove that with no contradictory concepts, it could be possible. But if you have stuff like stating the finite value or a finite usage of the value (Like stating things comparable to real-life SoL), that would be no good.

Basically, works can have their own concepts that go outside the use of the same terms in the tiering system and people here tend to accept those when there's both enough evidence and no opposition to it in-universe, or in cases when there's, it can be accepted if there's an in-universe explanation for the seemingly discrepancy, or if there's an absolutely absurd amount of evidence that takes over the contradictions (Again, the Flahses once had it due to being Basically half a century of historical evidence for that interpretation).

So a single statement of finite speed would be > 3 or more Contradictory feat of infinite speed? KE stuff aside that is

 

[Executor_N0]

So a single statement of finite speed would be > 3 or more Contradictory feat of infinite speed? KE stuff aside that is

No idea, it's not something that has happened enough for there to be a standard (And I'm just someone who knows a thing or two about concepts and their usages, so I'm not much into threads for time limitation). Could it be that it's like current 1-A or Tier 0 rantings that even a single contradiction is enough to break the ranting with no explanation. I guess the only way of knowing would be for making the best case you can build and try, even if it doesn't pass, if it's good enough, could be used as guidence for future revisions.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

No idea, it's not something that has happened enough for there to be a standard (And I'm just someone who knows a thing or two about concepts and their usages, so I'm not much into threads for time limitation). Could it be that it's like current 1-A or Tier 0 rantings that even a single contradiction is enough to break the ranting with no explanation. I guess the only way of knowing would be for making the best case you can build and try, even if it doesn't pass, if it's good enough, could be used as guidence for future revisions.

I might in the future

Thank you for your guidance and knowledge here