Soul of Cinder's Resistances

[C2_of_Omegon]

In a recent thread (Thread:1252828) the Soul of Cinder went up against the Moon Presence. A big part of why it won the match was due to it's resistance to Mind Hax. However, this was not listed on its profile. Also, it was noted that the Soul of Cinder could ignore Power Nulls that could stop it from healing. That was also not listed on the profile.

These feats come from it ignore the abilities of Ashen One during their fight. Now, I could understand that constiting as proof. However, me being the through person that I am, am still questioning that.

Were those things unique to the Soul of Cinder, or did every boss share similiar trait? Because, I'm just saying, it would be a little bad on the devs' part to allow what is the Final Boss of the Soul series, and quite possibly the most important boss of the entire franchise, to be taken out by cheap tricks or gimmicks. Especially since this series is known for it's crazy/epic boss fight.

So let's discuss this and put it to rest, ladies and gentlmen.

 

[Keeweed]

In a recent thread (Thread:1252828) the Soul of Cinder went up against the Moon Presence. A big part of why it won the match was due to it's resistance to Mind Hax. However, this was not listed on its profile. Also, it was noted that the Soul of Cinder could ignore Power Nulls that could stop it from healing. That was also not listed on the profile.

These feats come from it ignore the abilities of Ashen One during their fight. Now, I could understand that constiting as proof. However, me being the through person that I am, am still questioning that.

Were those things unique to the Soul of Cinder, or did every boss share similiar trait? Because, I'm just saying, it would be a little bad on the devs' part to allow what is the Final Boss of the Soul series, and quite possibly the most important boss of the entire franchise, to be taken out by cheap tricks or gimmicks. Especially since this series is known for it's crazy/epic boss fight.

So let's discuss this and put it to rest, ladies and gentlmen.

Regen null resistance comes from hunter charms not working on him while working on the ashen one (also you can still use one of the weapons in bloodborne to heal http://bloodborne.wiki.fextralife.com/Choir+Bell

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The MP's regen null WOULD work on the SoS due to verse equlization

 

[Keeweed]

The MP's regen null WOULD work on the SoS due to verse equlization

But hunter charms don't so no verse Equalization wouldn't also mircles work differently even if the verse were equalized due to the choir Bell working

 

[WeeklyBattles]

It doesnt matter if miracles work differently, the entire point of verse equalization is that it would work regardless of how the healing/regen works

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Big question: does the charm not work on any of the other bosses?

Also, @Keeweed, please don't quote large blocks of text. It will fill the thread up.

 

[Keeweed]

Big question: does the charm not work on any of the other bosses?

Also, @Keeweed, please don't quote large blocks of text. It will fill the thread up.

I realized afterwards, sorry

 

[Keeweed]

It doesnt matter if miracles work differently, the entire point of verse equalization is that it would work regardless of how the healing/regen works

But won't that be a nlf since that means his regen null for some reason nulls magic heals that it cannot do in it own verse as shown with the choir Bell.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

No, its not, its the definition of verse equalization. Its the same thing that makes it so Genjustu works on everyone despite it only working on chakra users in the Naruto verse, or that allows anyone who can touch intangible characters being able to harm Logia users in One Piece despite only being able to be touched by Haki users

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Again, did the Mind Control work on the other bosses in the game?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Mind Control?

 

[Keeweed]

No, its not, its the definition of verse equalization. Its the same thing that makes it so Genjustu works on everyone despite it only working on chakra users in the Naruto verse, or that allows anyone who can touch intangible characters being able to harm Logia users in One Piece despite only being able to be touched by Haki users

But it cannot null the choir Bell which uses magic just like the SoC miracles. Why would it work on the miricles if it doesn't work on the choirs Bell. Can you atleast give me a reason other than verse Equalization.

 

[Keeweed]

Mind Control?

He's talking about rapport I think (we should also get Ever to atleast talk about this thread so we know what he thinks since he's the one who upgraded the verse).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

In my eyes as a person who has dedicated an unhealthy amount of time to Dark Souls and Bloodborne, I would say SoS should have resistance to Mind Manip as he cannot be controlled by the Ashen One, who can control most Undead.

Furthermore, someone in that thread brought up multiple points in favor of the idea that the SoC, as an amalgamation of souls, should be much harder to Mind Manip. Haxxing thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, if not MORE, minds, should be a lot more difficult than the Bloodborne god-tiers, those that mind manipulate Yharnam's citizens.

SoC also contains souls of foes who could not be Mind Controlled (including Solaire of Astora and Great Lord Gwyn).

As for healing negation resistance... its true that it could resist Hunter Charms and still heal, but it shouldn't be added. Hunter Charms ONLY halt Estus healing. Soul of Cinder heals via magic. Therefore, healing negation would be effective.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Iirc the Choir Bell works specifically because it uses the power of the Great Ones to heal the user. Verse equalization would still nullify the SoS's healing

 

[Keeweed]

Iirc the Choir Bell works specifically because it uses the power of the Great Ones to heal the user. Verse equalization would still nullify the SoS's healing

I want to say something, but the only thing I can think of saying is ok because Mr. Bambu summed it up pretty well.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This is not considering Verse Equalization, Weekly. This is an edit of the SoC profile.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

So its been agreed that the MP's healing null would work on the SoS?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Dependent upon whether or not you take the abilities out of context in the way that Verse Equalization permits. But really, that would mean... no. If you change how the character itself functions and how the verse itself functions, then it is still considered resistance if he heals through Hunter Charm, isn't it? That is Healing Nullification and the SoC heals anyways.

Either way, I'd say no.

Without Verse Equalization, their healing works in completely different ways and are therefore inapplicable.

With Verse Equalization, SoC does indeed heal through an item that negates healing.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

@Mr. Bambu

That's part the reason I'm so focused on the Rapport is for what you pointed out. While that does make sense that due SoC being an amalgamation, that still makes me question it.

What kind of amalgamation is it? Are all the Lord of Cinder active inside of it? Are they just there for the SoC to draw upon their abilities?

I raise those questions because of the very role the SoC plays. It's a being that has only one purpose: defend the First Flame via fighting. It is the last line of defense, so a lot of things those that make up its individual parts (memory, personality, opinions, etc.) would be of no use to it.

Additionally, what if the reason for Rapport not working, is due to the souls that make up the SoC having a unified desire to keep the Flame going and virtually nothing can sway that shared goal.

Either explanation works but that's the problem. Without more info, how do we determine that?

Going further, if SoC's components like Gwyn and Solaire can't be Mind Controlled, than that's gotta be added to them as well, once this wrapped up.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to downplay or anything like that, I'm trying to set up a baseline to define things. That's why I asked earlier in the thread if other bosses resist Mind Hax. I just don't put it past devs to make bosses immune to things so that you can't just sidestep the fight.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I'm basically trying to make it so that no matter how this goes, someone can't just turn around and try to say 'well, they're wrong cuz x, y and z!'.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Dependent upon whether or not you take the abilities out of context in the way that Verse Equalization permits. But really, that would mean... no. If you change how the character itself functions and how the verse itself functions, then it is still considered resistance if he heals through Hunter Charm, isn't it? That is Healing Nullification and the SoC heals anyways.
Either way, I'd say no.

Without Verse Equalization, their healing works in completely different ways and are therefore inapplicable.

With Verse Equalization, SoC does indeed heal through an item that negates healing.

Thats basically what verse equalization does. For example, verse equalization makes Genjutsu, which only works on chakra users, work on literally everyone. The same would apply here, doesnt matter the method in which the SoS heals, verse equalization would make it so the MP's heling negation negates it. The whole point of Verse Equalzation is that it "breaks" how an ability works for fairness in a matchup.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Weekly I've said everything I need to say. This is just sort of a circle now. Take it how you will, I've given my knowledge on both verses.

@C2 The Lords of Cinder should still be active within the SoC. The Soul of Cinder's second stage is infamously based on Gwyn- he uses the same moveset. Gwyn actively influenced the SoC from the inside- or, at least, that's how I take it.

If it resists Rapport due to a unified goal and driving purpose, then... that would work for everything relevant to Mind Manip, would it not? I don't believe this to be the case but it could be interpretted as this.

I'm not under the impression that you're downplaying or manipulating info in any way. If these answers are insufficient, then feel free to ask more for clarification.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

So you agree?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I give up arguing by saying the same things over and over. Take it how you will.

 

[Keeweed]

We really need Ever for this.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Why specifically Ever? Sorry if I'm a tad unclear on that point. Was he the one responsible for the recent upgrades for DS (those ones that have been needed for ages)?

 

[Keeweed]

Why specifically Ever? Sorry if I'm a tad unclear on that point. Was he the one responsible for the recent upgrades for DS (those ones that have been needed for ages)?

I thought he was the main person behind the upgrades considering he where most people got the information and is the one who re-edits anything incorrect.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Ah. Gotcha.

Sorry, just didn't know.

 

[Keeweed]

Ah. Gotcha.

Sorry, just didn't know.

It's good.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Weekly In theory, if Verse Equalization works as you are saying it does, then it would make sense that the Soul of Cinder would be negated against healing. I think that is a very foul way of doing it... let me explain my issues here.

It hinges on a set profile. That means you are unable to intepret things in different ways. For example, by law of Verse Equalization, SoC WOULD have "resisted" (been unaffected) by the Hunter's Charms, but for a general, one-size-fits-all page, SoC logically should NOT have Healing Nullification because in the game's own logic, that Hunter's Charms do not affect his healing. But if you generalize, then that is technically a Healing Nullification item that doesn't affect the SoC. So which path do you choose?

I might or might not be making sense here.