Sonic The Hedgehog Revision (Summarized)

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Note: This is not meant to be a length Discussion Thread

Recently, after much debating, certain revisions involving the Sonic the Hedgehog character have been proposed.

I will list them here:

• 1.0) It's been agreed that Sonic's Super Form is widely inconsistent, with feats ranging from simply defeating City-Shattering and Lifewiping entities, to Planet or even Star System busters, to even feats that involve the destruction of entire universes, or all of space-time across numerous timelines.

Conclusion: Super Sonic's Low-Ends will not be used. Similarly, his High-Ends will not. They are simply far too higher than all his other feats. As such, Super Sonic will be placed at At least 5-A to 4-A. Next to nothing is known about Hyper Sonic, other that it is immensely superior to Super Sonic. As such, a At least 4-A, likely higher Tier seems okay.

• 2.0) Base Sonic also displays inconsistencies in his Tiering. He has gone from simply Tier 8-B or 8-A in Sonic CD cutscenes, to provoking the fall / destruction of the Town Sized Death Egg numerous times, or even defeating beings capable of quickly ravaging the surfaces of planets / powered by a planet's entire biosphere.

Conclusion: For lack of a better solution, Base Sonic will remain as 7-B. It's neither too low-end, nor too high up to become inconsistent with the character's general portrayal. Werehog Sonic will be At least 7-B by virtue of being far stronger physically.

• 3.0) In regards to Sonic's two transformations seem in the Storybook Games, Secret Rings and Black Knight, they lack sufficient feats, but we can make assumptions by analysing statements of final bosses.

Conclusion: Excalibur Sonic should be 5-B. The Dark Queen created the entire Storybook Camelot Reality / Everlasting Kingdom. He is currently Low 6-B, due to assumptions that the world is simply an England-sized location, rather than an entire Planet as it is. Darkspine Sonic is tricky, but he should be Possibly 3-A, or even Low 2-C. Alf Layla wa-Layla stated to be the Arabian Knights reality itself, alongside it's creator. He was going to erase it completely, and Darkspine Sonic had to warp it back into being after defeating him.

Finally, Sonic's Speed:

Base Sonic should remain FTL due to repeated statements and feats. Werehog is notably slower, so At most FTL seems okay. Excalibur Sonic should be At least FTL, likely higher...

The problem comes with Super Sonic, Hyper Sonic and Darkspine Sonic, his greatest forms. Currently, we have Super Sonic at FTL+ and Hyper Sonic at MFTL. The argument against it is that it is simply guess-work, and we don't know how fast Sonic gets in these forms. The counterargument is that Super Sonic used to be FTL back when Sonic was simply Supersonic+, so I don't know. I'd be fine with FTL+ Super Sonic and At least FTL+, likely higher for Hyper and Darkspine. Then there's the whole issue about weather they should or shouldn't scale to the Final Egg Blaster attack speed. I think the later should, by virtue of Super Emeralds being far superior than the robot's energy source. But whatever.

Do you people agree or not?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Everything involving AP, I agree on. Speed for the most part is okay, but I'm not 100% sold yet. Then again, I'm currently delirious.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@The real cal howard

... Are you okay?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah lol. It's just 3 in the morning here. I'll be more responsive in the morning. I think I'm just gonna fall asleep to some Classic DB.

P.S. Good thing I know the placements of the keys, because I'm legit typing this with my head in my elbow and eyes closed XD. Only opening them to hit reply.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, given that I have been told that he has several Low 2-C feats, I personally think that those should be counted if we use a variable tier.

Btw: Howard, please get some sleep.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah, that would be good, How.

@Antvasima

I'd like Low 2-C on the variable tier too, but it's up to the majority. -shrugs-

 

[Unclechairman]

I agree with most of the revisions, except for;

Planet level Excalibur Sonic: The setting of Sonic and the Black Knight is based on the Arthurian Legends, which take place in England. Even the in-game map suggest Small Country to Country level. And even if we assume the setting is planet-sized (i.e., there being a world outside the game map), Merlina is only concerned with Camelot.

Scaling Super Sonic's speed to the Final Egg Blaster: The FEB is a beam of energy. Super Sonic is a mammal of flesh and blood. The two are not comparable. Super Sonic would not neccessarily be as fast as a beam of energy even if he is using a comparable source of power.

Also, on a minor note, I think Super Sonic's tier should range from 5-B to 4-A, with the Eclipse Cannon beng used as the low-end.

Lastly, you forgot to mention that both Alf-Layla-Wa-Layla and Darkspine Sonic are both powered by the World Rings, which sustain the Arabian Nights reality. This is why I balk at people who argue that Alf-Layla-Wa-Layla was exaggerating. He had every reason to believe he was a god, as he was empowered by the very things which sustain his reality.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

though I think vary tiers are reasonable to fit with mutiple tier 2 feats that's up to the majority but so far this seems nice the laser comparing sonic to it idk but i can assume if eggman still needs them it could be faster and more powerful so that could be why

 

[Elione-Arisu]

There is no problem to me, this seems fine. Also, is it possible to make a profile for classic sonic, please ? If you don't want to it's fine.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I agree with most of this. I'm fine with either "Varies from 5-A to Low 2-C" or "Varies from 5-A to 4-A" personally. Using that 5-B feat as a low end seems a bit odd considering he already has a solid 5-A feat.

As for Exalibur Sonic, maybe "At least Low 6-B, possibly/likely 5-B" could work? I haven't played Black Knight so I dunno how to judge it.

Darkspine Sonic being 3-A seems fine.

As for the speed, didn't DT do a calc that put Super Sonic at Massively FTL+ or was that not accepted? Other than that, it seems fair.

@Elione-chan I was doing some calculations on Classic Sonic feats since we were discussing making a Classic Sonic page. Weirdly enough, him dropping the Death Egg was his least impressive feat so far..

 

[Unclechairman]

Using that 5-B feat as a low end seems a bit odd considering he already has a solid 5-A feat.

The way that 5-A feat was presented made it seem like it was his cap. Not good for a low-end.

As for Classic Sonic, he's slated to reappear in whatever comes out of Project Sonic 2017, so he may do something impressive there as well.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

MFTL Sonic calc? I see no such thing.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:DontTalk/A_hammer_and_some_flying_past_stars

Here it is. Was calculated at 700+ Million-515 Trillion times FTL

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

According to TheMightyRegulator, this feat is actually valid and not just guess-work.

Honestly, I"m okay with it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The context, by the way, is that they flew from the Earth into the space in-which the two universes were merging into one.

 

[Unclechairman]

I'm very skeptical of it.

The "stars" hardly look like stars, and it seems to just be an aesthetic more than anything else.

Also, the final battle takes place in a tear in space-time created by the worlds merging. I find it very unlikely that such a tear would be deep in space considering the emeralds which caused the tear were on Earth.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

https://youtu.be/fM_ZDnI9EZM?t=332

The Earth had a normal sky as you can see.

They had to fly into space to reach the rift.

 

[Unclechairman]

That doesn't look like a normal sky at all. It looks like the sky of a world that's about to end.

How do you know that? We don't know exactly where the rift is, but given that the source of the distortion is on the Earth itself, it doesn't make sense for the rift to be so far out in space. It could be just outside the atmosphere.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The cutscene doesn't imply it being simply outside the atmosphere. It is almost depicted as so sort of hyperspace travel.

 

[Unclechairman]

Sure it doesn't. Still doesn't mean it's all the way out in space, though. The basic boss entrance is the same; the final boss just has extra aesthetics because it's the final boss. Again, explain how it makes sense for Exception Zone to be as far out in space as you're making it out to be when the source of the whole thing is on Earth.

You're taking this scene's aesthetics way too seriously.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree on everything, especially 5-A to 4-A Super Sonic, universal+ Darkspine and scaling Super/Hyper Forms to the Egg Blaster's speed.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Uncle, I don't see how two universes would start merging by anything but their edges.

 

[Unclechairman]

That would imply that Sonic and Blaze flew to the edge of the universe, which would inflate the numbers even more.

Besides, that would throw the whole calc into question. You don't reach the edge of the universe by flying past a few stars. Or rather, what the calc assumes are stars, but which may not actually be stars at all, just glowing balls or aesthetics.

This calc has way too many assumptions to base an upgrade on. That's the gist of what I'm saying. It's not clear-cut enough.

 

[Antvasima]

I also vaguely remember that the speed calculation in question was discounted after a discussion, due to similar reasons to the ones that Unclechairman mentioned.

 

[Antvasima]

In addition, I also think that the visual effects look too different and small compared to real stars to be counted as such.

 

[Thegreenllamabunchie2]

But that makes total sense, Super Sonic easily defeated Perfect Chaos who was around City level, pretty easily, but also defeated FinalHazard easily; basically my point is that Super Sonic (SS) has never shown a limit even with Solaris and that is why he seems inconsistent (in the games atleast)

Thanks for reading!

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Thegreenllamabunchie2

That's not how debating works.

@Antvasima

Okay then.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

I agree with all the ratings except for Excalibur Sonic. I remember watching a playthrough of the game he appeared in and distinctively remember cutscenes where the wizard(can't remember her name) was solely focused on making Camelot go on forever or something like that while casting a spell that shown to cover the map of the kingdom. I'm going to go with the rating Unclechairman suggests.....

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm still saying no to low 2-C Super and Hyper. Solaris got hit with the retcon punch, the Egg Wizard dwarfed the power of the emeralds (so I believe them beating it is PIS), yet Time Eater was legit. Just an outlier.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Solaris was a legit fight they just couldn't put him down permanently and resorted to travel to the past, Time eater is legit, Egg Wizard used the power of the stars instead of the emeralds true as Eggman and Nega sought them out but the emeralds hold the parrellel universe together from breaking down into each other and overlapping (my Sonic rush and rush adventure is rusty so I could be wrong in this) the power of the stars is stronger than the emeralds set individually but not together (from what I remember Nega and Eggman only mentioned one set of emeralds but not the other again rusty memory so I could be wrong)

 

[SomebodyData]

I agree with Unclechairman's suggestions and the rest of Matthew's ratings.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Personally Hop feels most of the suggestions are okay to apply, however the speed is quite odd regardless, and to be fair, Unclechairman's suggestions seem to hold weight.

 

[Sparky_"Dante"_Marky1234]

Wanted to bring this up:

Currently, the battles with Solaris and other Universal beings were regarded as outlier. However, I don't believe that is the case. No, I'm not implying that Sonic is at those levels.

A note should be added to his profile saying the following.

"Solaris, Time Eater and his other Universe level enemies all achieved Universe level feats through reality warping, and since nothing suggests that Super Sonic actually had to combat their reality warping, we can't scale him based on those fights."

Of course, Darkspine is a different case, because as said in the OP, he restored the entire Universe after defeating Alf.

 

[Unclechairman]

Literally devouring time and space itself is just reality warping?

As for the Egg Wizard, it's powered by the Power of the Stars, which allows the coexistence of and (I believe) stabilizes two universes.

Is that considered mere reality warping to you, something that the Super forms might not scale to?

 

[Ryukama]

All the Tier 2 villains Sonic has faced have Tier 2 durability. And to my knowledge he has never used dura negating hax to defeat them. So while they might be outliers, they're still Tier 2 feats for Sonic.

 

[Unclechairman]

Both Solaris and Time Eater have exploitable weak points, though. The Egg Wizard doesn't, however, and it's defeated by either spamming fireballs at it as Burning Blaze or reflecting its attacks back at it with Super Sonic.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Uncle

I'm not sure if we treat weak points in boss fights as canon.

Really, I can find myself agreeing to all of this besides maybe the 5-B Excalibur Sonic thing, but I don't know about S&TBK at all.

Also, according to the Sonic wiki, ALWL also destroyed the Arabian Night's space-time just by existing. Can anyone confirm if this is true?

 

[Cropfist]

Also about the Egg Wizard, like Cal said the Power of the Stars is far above both the Chaos and Sol Emeralds, though I would attribute Sonic and Blaze beating it to be the wizard not using the full power of it instead of PIS.

@Ever Darkanine should be able to confirm.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Oh please, don't go "Oh, he used weakspots" as arguments, that's just sad.

 

[Lina_Shields]

So, do you guys still need my assistance here in this thread? It seems like we are almost done with setting up the tiering for these guys.