Sonic Speed CRT

[OculoOmnibus]

Classic Sonic​

Classic Sonic's speed is listed here as FTL because of these reasons:

• Stated to be capable of outrunning lasers.
• Has reacted to and outsped lasers.

However, as shown on the Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats page, the criteria is here as follows.

Most lasers in fiction are not real or provable as real. Often they are supernatural in nature and do not function anywhere close to how real light should. Therefore, lasers/light beams are only accepted as real if they meet, at a minimum, a few of these criteria:

• The beam refracts in a new material, such as a liquid or...
• The beam diffuses in a reasonably realistic way or reflects off a material that it can be expected to, such as a non-magical mirror.
• The beam is called lightspeed by reliable sources.
• It is stated to be composed/consisting of photons or light itself, again by a reliable source.
• It has its origin at a realistic source of light, such as a camera

Furthermore, there are a few criteria which show a beam is NOT real light:

• It is shown at different speeds in the same material.
• It is tangible and can be interacted with physically by normal humans.
• They do not travel in straight lines (unless you can prove refraction/reflection, see above.)

Based on the criteria, statements must say that the beam must be called lightspeed or light, or must act like light in the ways listed above.

The "Light Speed" Statements​

• Stated to be capable of outrunning lasers.

In Sonic Chaos, the lasers in Electric Egg Zone are not shown to fulfill these requirements and are not stated in the manual anywhere to be beams of light or moving at lightspeed.
"But what about the final boss? It's clearly called the Laser Walker and has refracting shots!"
The shots are quite literally called "bounce shots" in the manual, and they don't even act the same on the surface they bounce off of. This shouldn't qualify as a lightspeed laser based on what is required in the criteria.

• Has reacted to and outsped lasers.

I'll talk about both these calcs down below.

Truth Bullets' Calc​

On this calc, four of these dodging feats are done in games from the Classic Era and all come out as Relativistic+.
I personally don't see anything wrong with this calc blog, but if someone wants to recalc it again then I guess go ahead. Other than that this seems solid.

ShakeResounding's Calc​

This calc though is what gets to me and I ask as to why it was approved at all.

First of all, this screenshot is from Super Smash Bros. 4, a crossover game that's not even part of the franchise.
Second, it does not say anything about the laser beams moving at lightspeed or being made of light.

This calc should be removed because it relies off statements that are not in a mainline game.

• Can beat Modern Knuckles and Modern Amy in a race, able to gather Chao faster than Cream, and can dodge bombs from Rouge)

These would fall under his other tiering that reads "At most Massively FTL+" though I don't know how credible the side missions in Sonic Generations are since it's more of an obstacle course like Stardust Speedway in Sonic CD rather than an actual running race.

Modern Sonic​

For Modern Sonic, there's a few things I'd like to change about his statements on the page.

First, what the heck is "warp speed"? Is that supposed to be FTL?

And second, there's a statement made by Official Dreamcast Magazine that states that "both characters move faster than we've ever seen Sonic go before", so Adventure Era Sonic's speed is increased to Massively FTL+ via multiplying this with the Spin Dash calc. However, to me this isn't a reliable source of information because the way it's worded is clearly meant to be hyperbole in order to increase sales and it is not elaborated on anywhere else at all. It's the exact same way Sega was gassing Infinite up in promotional material for Sonic Forces as "Sonic's most powerful enemy yet" despite clearly not being comparable to other enemies in previous titles (This statement is not used for Infinite's profile at all by the way), so in my opinion I believe it should be removed.

This is also true with the statement about him having to "run faster than he ever had before" in Sonic Frontiers' promotional material. There's no material stating he is running faster than ever before. It's just advertising and gassing things up (Plus this wouldn't include the Spin Dash as this isn't "running").

Eggman's Ships​

He's shown able to catch up with Eggman's spaceships in Sonic Colors I can agree with that, but where is the proof that they flew all the way to Planet Wisp or let alone superior to Dodon Pa's rocket? He could have teleported or done any other Eggman stuff since they appear almost instantly in Planet Wisp's atmosphere, so I don't think there should be comparisons made to the rocket because there's nothing backing it up.

Pitches for​

Classic Sonic​

• [If all CRT info is accepted]
  • Relativistic+, FTL reactions (Sonic consistently reacts to Metal Sonic's V. Maximum Overdrive Attack in close quarters combat, which amplifies Metal Sonic's speed by four times. Can dodge bombs from Rouge. Can react to attacks from the Death Egg Robot alongside Modern Sonic and Avatar.), Massively FTL with the Spin Dash, Drop Dash, and Super Peel Out (323.164c; The Spin Dash is a technique that increases the speed and reactions of those who use it by 346x, the Drop Dash is an aerial variant of the Spin Dash, and the Super Peel Out referred to as faster than the Spin Dash). Higher with Color Powers (Able to tag Blaze with assistance from the Spike Wisp)
• [If partial CRT info is accepted]
  • Relativistic+, FTL reactions (Sonic consistently reacts to Metal Sonic's V. Maximum Overdrive Attack in close quarters combat, which amplifies Metal Sonic's speed by four times.), At most Massively FTL (Can dodge bombs from Rouge. Can react to attacks from the Death Egg Robot alongside Modern Sonic and Avatar.), Massively FTL+ with the Spin Dash, Drop Dash, and Super Peel Out (111,814.744c; The Spin Dash is a technique that increases the speed and reactions of those who use it by 346x, the Drop Dash is an aerial variant of the Spin Dash, and the Super Peel Out referred to as faster than the Spin Dash). Higher with Color Powers (Able to tag Blaze with assistance from the Spike Wisp)

Modern Sonic​

• [If all CRT info is accepted]
  • FTL (Stated to instantly reach lightspeed in Adventure 1. Is superior to E-102 Gamma and far above to his classic self. Outran a black hole in Shuffle.), Massively FTL with the Spin Dash, Super Peel Out and Boost (The Spin Dash increases his speed and reactions by this much.) | FTL (Commented that light speed was small-time to him after having his speed measured by E-123 Omega. Faster than a Cyan Wisp, which is confirmed to move at the speed of light, and has multiple WOG statements confirming he has surpassed the speed of light. Can catch up to and keep pace with several of Eggman’s ships. Able to keep an even pace with the Death Egg Robot with his normal speed, which was stated to surpass Infinite by Eggman and was corroborated by Tails.), Massively FTL with the Spin Dash, Boost, Drop Dash, and Super Peel Out (Blitzed a group of Prism Energy-enhanced Eggforcers to the point where they were moving in slow motion in comparison despite initially being pummeled by them) | FTL (Sonic is fast as he is while uninfected, but the constant running required to make sure he doesn't turn into a Zombot will make him slower after prolonged periods of time and exhaustion)
• [If partial CRT info is accepted]
  • Massively FTL (323.164c; Stated to instantly reach lightspeed in Adventure 1. Is superior to E-102 Gamma and far above to his classic self. Outran a black hole in Shuffle. Was stated to be moving faster than he ever did before alongside Shadow in Sonic Adventure 2.), Massively FTL+ with the Spin Dash, Super Peel Out and Boost (111,814.744c; The Spin Dash increases his speed and reactions by this much.) | Massively FTL (Commented that light speed was small-time to him after having his speed measured by E-123 Omega. Faster than a Cyan Wisp, which is confirmed to move at the speed of light, and has multiple WOG statements confirming he has surpassed the speed of light. Can catch up to and keep pace with several of Eggman’s ships. Able to keep an even pace with the Death Egg Robot with his normal speed, which was stated to surpass Infinite by Eggman and was corroborated by Tails. Was stated to have run faster than ever before by the time of Sonic Frontiers.), Massively FTL+ with the Spin Dash, Boost, Drop Dash, and Super Peel Out (Blitzed a group of Prism Energy-enhanced Eggforcers to the point where they were moving in slow motion in comparison despite initially being pummeled by them) | Massively FTL (Sonic is fast as he is while uninfected, but the constant running required to make sure he doesn't turn into a Zombot will make him slower after prolonged periods of time and exhaustion)

 

[Chariot190]

To be completely fair, the requirements for lasers are far more lax when it comes to verses with previously established lasers and accepted values hovering around FTL already. the latter of which is actually pointed out on the page you're quoting for requirements.

Sonic definitely fits both, so it shouldn't be too much of a deal to split hairs over.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Classic Sonic already has lightspeed statements. So even if the lasers were disregarded he should be lightspeed bare minimum. Though IIRC there's other evidence he's FTL as well.

 

[Omegabronic]

First, what the heck is "warp speed"? Is that supposed to be FTL?

yeah

warp speed - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

And second, there's a statement made by Official Dreamcast Magazine that states that "both characters move faster than we've ever seen Sonic go before", so Adventure Era Sonic's speed is increased to Massively FTL+ via multiplying this with the Spin Dash calc. However, to me this isn't a reliable source of information because the way it's worded is clearly meant to be hyperbole in order to increase sales and it is not elaborated on anywhere else at all.

it is not worded as a hyperbole at all, this point makes no sense, you have not given any reason to discard it besides "i don't like how it is written, it is for marketing"(which is duh, but isn't a reason for us to discard a blatant statement like that), also "not elaborated on anywhere else at all" well, don't see how that matters honestly, is it contradicted? no, therefore no reason to remove it, it is a simple, blatant statement

It's the exact same way Sega was gassing Infinite up in promotional material for Sonic Forces as "Sonic's most powerful enemy yet" despite clearly not being comparable to other enemies in previous titles (This statement is not used for Infinite's profile at all by the way), so in my opinion I believe it should be removed.

you mean the statements that are far more complex that would bump infinite into several infinities of power, while he himself has no feats to support such a giant claim like that? yeah no, it is not the same situation at all, it is very different and a bigger statement that would require far more proof due to the scope of what is being said

This is also true with the statement about him having to "run faster than he ever had before" in Sonic Frontiers' promotional material
There's no material stating he is running faster than ever before.

yes there is, the video is saying just that, i have no idea what you are talking about here

It's just advertising and gassing things up (Plus this wouldn't include the Spin Dash as this isn't "running").

you clearly have not saw the power scaling blog have you? the boost is running, honestly you should have asked before making the thread

Eggman's Ships​

He's shown able to catch up with Eggman's spaceships in Sonic Colors I can agree with that, but where is the proof that they flew all the way to Planet Wisp or let alone superior to Dodon Pa's rocket? He could have teleported or done any other Eggman stuff since they appear almost instantly in Planet Wisp's atmosphere

you mean like any warp speed depiction in most fiction franchises? it isn't a proof of teleportation

so I don't think there should be comparisons made to the rocket because there's nothing backing it up.

they making the same trip quickly enough to no one notice what he was doing?



honestly this crt is very bad and not very good looken into, you should have seen the timeline and powerscaling blog and asked first to inform yourself

 

[CloverDragon03]

Classic Sonic​

Classic Sonic's speed is listed here as FTL because of these reasons:

However, as shown on the Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats page, the criteria is here as follows.

Based on the criteria, statements must say that the beam must be called lightspeed or light, or must act like light in the ways listed above.

The "Light Speed" Statements​

In Sonic Chaos, the lasers in Electric Egg Zone are not shown to fulfill these requirements and are not stated in the manual anywhere to be beams of light or moving at lightspeed.
"But what about the final boss? It's clearly called the Laser Walker and has refracting shots!"
The shots are quite literally called "bounce shots" in the manual, and they don't even act the same on the surface they bounce off of. This shouldn't qualify as a lightspeed laser based on what is required in the criteria.

I'll talk about both these calcs down below.

Vehemently disagree with this part here. First off, you're being even stricter with our standards than the site is as a whole. Only a few of the criteria need to be met, not all of them. In addition, the video you sent on Electric Egg Zone doesn't really prove anything. In fact, I'd say the lasers come from a reasonable source to be considered legitimate, especially given they're machines built by Eggman of all people.

The Laser Walker's shots being called "bounce shots" isn't a disproving factor either, it's fallacious to assume that a simple name immediately disproves this. There's a whole fallacy on this kinda thing for a reason. Again, not really seeing concrete evidence.

This calc though is what gets to me and I ask as to why it was approved at all.

First of all, this screenshot is from Super Smash Bros. 4, a crossover game that's not even part of the franchise.
Second, it does not say anything about the laser beams moving at lightspeed or being made of light.

This calc should be removed because it relies off statements that are not in a mainline game.

These would fall under his other tiering that reads "At most Massively FTL+" though I don't know how credible the side missions in Sonic Generations are since it's more of an obstacle course like Stardust Speedway in Sonic CD rather than an actual running race.

Light speed requirements are far more lax for characters that already have light speed stuff, as Chariot has said before. Given the series' history with this, if they're called lasers, it should be enough. In addition, there's nothing contradicting this statement about the Eggrobos, and Sakurai often digs into the series he's pulling from for Smash stuff anyway. My point being, this is not a disqualifying factor either.

Even if it was, it doesn't seem like Sonic needs the laser feats to be FTL anyway, going strictly by statements

Modern Sonic​

For Modern Sonic, there's a few things I'd like to change about his statements on the page.

First, what the heck is "warp speed"? Is that supposed to be FTL?

And second, there's a statement made by Official Dreamcast Magazine that states that "both characters move faster than we've ever seen Sonic go before", so Adventure Era Sonic's speed is increased to Massively FTL+ via multiplying this with the Spin Dash calc. However, to me this isn't a reliable source of information because the way it's worded is clearly meant to be hyperbole in order to increase sales and it is not elaborated on anywhere else at all. It's the exact same way Sega was gassing Infinite up in promotional material for Sonic Forces as "Sonic's most powerful enemy yet" despite clearly not being comparable to other enemies in previous titles (This statement is not used for Infinite's profile at all by the way), so in my opinion I believe it should be removed.

For starters, "warp speed" seems to be a speed greater than what his normal speed is, in context

As for the statements... What makes it "clearly meant to be a hyperbole"? You can't just assert something like this and not prove it. And way to be a buzzkill on the Infinite statement, I was planning on using that dammit.

Exact same thing applies to the Frontiers statement (which I accidentally didn't quote but I'm lazy so assume I did). Prove that this is just flowery language. It really doesn't seem that way, especially given that Sonic literally gets speed amps throughout the game via the Koco that unlocks his potential.

Eggman's Ships​

He's shown able to catch up with Eggman's spaceships in Sonic Colors I can agree with that, but where is the proof that they flew all the way to Planet Wisp or let alone superior to Dodon Pa's rocket? He could have teleported or done any other Eggman stuff since they appear almost instantly in Planet Wisp's atmosphere, so I don't think there should be comparisons made to the rocket because there's nothing backing it up.

Appearing quickly doesn't immediately equate to teleportation. I'm noticing this a lot, you're making these claims but you're not proving them. The things you're asserting are entirely headcanon.

TL;DR This thread contains a lot of assertions that are hardly supported outside of headcanon, and thus, I vehemently disagree with the OP

 

[Mephistus]

Eggrobo's are stated to have laser guns in the Encyclospeedia:

"Dr. Eggman's elite flying guard, armed with laser guns!"

Official concept art for Sonic Generations points out the Eggrobo using lasers; "レーザー" is translated as "laser".

& The Official Sonic Generations Guidebook had the same statements as well.

Lasers have the word light in the acronym; the statements about Sonic's speed back it up.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Eggrobo's are stated to have laser guns in the Encylospeedia:

"Dr. Eggman's elite flying guard, armed with laser guns!"

& The Official Generations guide had the same statement as well.

Perfect, that deals with the whole "you can't use that statement, it comes from Smash" debacle

 

[Chariot190]

The shots are quite literally called "bounce shots" in the manual, and they don't even act the same on the surface they bounce off of. This shouldn't qualify as a lightspeed laser based on what is required in the criteria.

Also because this is topical. Having multiple names doesn't inherently disprove what it is mechanically. For an example from another game.
Majora's Mask has a beam attack that within a guide is called a fire-ray, because it creates trails of flame.
But in actuality it's still a laser beam, it moves in a straight line, burns (hence the trails of fire and the previous name), bounces off reflective surfaces like mirrors in a straight line, and is even called a beam of light by Tatl in-game.

Which is to say, it can still be a laserbeam while a notable trait of it is referenced by name or it having a name or title that isn't literally "beam of light", in this case, the fact it ricochets and bounces around, hence, is titled bounce shot.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah I disagree for the reasons people above stated. You really seem to be reaching don't you?

 

[Remus1998]

Perfect, that deals with the whole "you can't use that statement, it comes from Smash" debacle

Now we can just use that statement now, as only the only part I agree with was using the statement from Smash

 

[OculoOmnibus]

Eggrobo's are stated to have laser guns in the Encyclospeedia:

"Dr. Eggman's elite flying guard, armed with laser guns!"

Official concept art for Sonic Generations points out the Eggrobo using lasers; "レーザー" is translated as "laser".

& The Official Sonic Generations Guidebook had the same statements as well.

Lasers have the word light in the acronym; the statements about Sonic's speed back it up.

If that's the case, then this should have been referenced in the calc rather than a Smash scan, but there's nothing on the criteria stating that it's lightspeed or beams of light.

Appearing quickly doesn't immediately equate to teleportation. I'm noticing this a lot, you're making these claims but you're not proving them. The things you're asserting are entirely headcanon.

Because where is the proof Eggman's ship moved faster than Dodon's Rocket? It shouldn't be listed as a speed feat if we have no idea how Eggman got to Planet Wisp

 

[OculoOmnibus]

To be completely fair, the requirements for lasers are far more lax when it comes to verses with previously established lasers and accepted values hovering around FTL already. the latter of which is actually pointed out on the page you're quoting for requirements.

Sonic definitely fits both, so it shouldn't be too much of a deal to split hairs over.

They should be linked instead then. I was entirely going off what was shown on the page.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

I was also going to bring this up in the post but why aren't we using the Japanese manual for Sonic CD as proof of Classic Sonic being FTL?

"In a state of warp standby, Sonic will leave a trail of light. While running at the "speed of light for a set amount of time", the warp panel will flicker and initiate the warp if maintained. If the time warp is initiated, you will start at the same spot from the era you warped from. If Sonic is defeated after time warping, he will restart from the position he warped at."

To me this would be a lot more definitive as there's nothing retconning the JP manuals as far as I know.

 

[Omegabronic]

If that's the case, then this should have been referenced in the calc rather than a Smash scan, but there's nothing on the criteria stating that it's lightspeed or beams of light.

Read the rest of the thread:

Vehemently disagree with this part here. First off, you're being even stricter with our standards than the site is as a whole. Only a few of the criteria need to be met, not all of them. In addition, the video you sent on Electric Egg Zone doesn't really prove anything. In fact, I'd say the lasers come from a reasonable source to be considered legitimate, especially given they're machines built by Eggman of all people.

Light speed requirements are far more lax for characters that already have light speed stuff, as Chariot has said before. Given the series' history with this, if they're called lasers, it should be enough. In addition, there's nothing contradicting this statement about the Eggrobos, and Sakurai often digs into the series he's pulling from for Smash stuff anyway. My point being, this is not a disqualifying factor either.

Because where is the proof Eggman's ship moved faster than Dodon's Rocket? It shouldn't be listed as a speed feat if we have no idea how Eggman got to Planet Wisp

we do know how he did that, he traveled there, making the same feat that do donpa did + his tech should be superior to most, of not all other in the verse

 

[OculoOmnibus]

we do know how he did that, he traveled there, making the same feat that do donpa did + his tech should be superior to most, of not all other in the verse

But is there proof he flew there? We see him make portals in Sonic colors for his ships, so I have to bring this up.
He could have wormholed to Planet Wisp but there's no proof at all for it. Those are all just assumptions being brought up on the page.

 

[Omegabronic]

But is there proof he flew there?

The fact that we see him flying with his ships to the planet?

We see him make portals in Sonic colors for his ships, so I have to bring this up.

You mean like how he clearly has shown to not do in the promotional material of the twitter account?

He could have wormholed to Planet Wisp but there's no proof at all for it.

He has show to not use portals in the promotional material

Those are all just assumptions being brought up on the page.

Let us humor your "possible wormhole" possibility, it is not supported by anything and requires more assumptions than him simply flying there

 

[JJSliderman]

But is there proof he flew there? We see him make portals in Sonic colors for his ships, so I have to bring this up.
He could have wormholed to Planet Wisp but there's no proof at all for it. Those are all just assumptions being brought up on the page.

Yes, he makes wormholes with Frigate Skullion, not Orcan. Only Skullion has the green capsules attached to it, most likely Wisp capsules that enabled the teleporting.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

Anyway putting that all aside shouldn't this statement be linked on Classic's page?

"In a state of warp standby, Sonic will leave a trail of light. While running at the "speed of light for a set amount of time", the warp panel will flicker and initiate the warp if maintained. If the time warp is initiated, you will start at the same spot from the era you warped from. If Sonic is defeated after time warping, he will restart from the position he warped at."

The lightspeed statements would be a lot more concrete if this statement was put on the page.

Yes, he makes wormholes with Frigate Skullion, not Orcan. Only Skullion has the green capsules attached to it, most likely Wisp capsules that enabled the teleporting.

If that's the case then I guess that doesn't need change then...

 

[Theuser789]

He could have teleported or done any other Eggman stuff since they appear almost instantly in Planet Wisp's atmosphere,

This is headcanon. There's nothing implying Eggman teleported. Disagree with the entire CRT FRA

 

[JJSliderman]

I do think there is merit in the idea that Sonic’s base speed shouldn’t scale above his speed amps in Frontiers and maybe SA2.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Because where is the proof Eggman's ship moved faster than Dodon's Rocket? It shouldn't be listed as a speed feat if we have no idea how Eggman got to Planet Wisp

You're the one that claimed it's teleportation, so prove that it's teleportation

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Disagree with the entire premise of the CRT FRA.