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Sera BTW has said that immeasurable was fine for the hedgehogs.
I also chatted a bit with DMB regarding Solaris.
I also chatted a bit with DMB regarding Solaris.
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Sonic Shuffle conclusion + 06 revision
- Thread starter ShadowWarrior1999
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Really because she said the exact opposite when I talked to her off the wiki. She said that the only Hedgehogs where immeasurable was acceptable was for Archie.
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@Cal I'm referring to this.
"Sera EX wrote:
We've beaten this horse to death. Moving without time is so common in fiction it's not even funny. Voids, stopped time, etc. Just because you can move without time in a void, doesn't mean you move without time inside reality where time exists. It's a shame when there's an FC/OC character with literal infinite speed that doesn't require "muh void feats".
Anyway back on topic, if the Super Forms get Immeasurable speed, make sure it's only immeasurable at their peak, meaning only the fight against Solaris is viable."
"Sera EX wrote:
We've beaten this horse to death. Moving without time is so common in fiction it's not even funny. Voids, stopped time, etc. Just because you can move without time in a void, doesn't mean you move without time inside reality where time exists. It's a shame when there's an FC/OC character with literal infinite speed that doesn't require "muh void feats".
Anyway back on topic, if the Super Forms get Immeasurable speed, make sure it's only immeasurable at their peak, meaning only the fight against Solaris is viable."
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Yeah, she said on another thread that Immeasurable won't be accepted.
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@DarkDragon See above.
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All she basically said was an if then; she never outright said she agrees with it. In fact, the first paragraph is elaborating the problems with moving in a void feats and said she's basically tired of Sonic revisions. Her if then was "If they're going to be Immeasurable, it would be at their absolute peak and only when fighting Solaris."
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She didn't say she was against it which was the point I was trying to make, though it's probably best to just let her comment instead of us going back and forth regarding what she said.
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Anyways, I want to debunk this common myth that's been spread across the Sonic fanbase regarding the Solaris fight.
This is the notion that Shadow fought Solaris specifically in the past, Sonic in the present, and Silver in the future.
Of course, this comes from Shadow saying that beating Solaris would only be possible if Sonic was still alive. As I've proven above, this isn't because they needed Sonic to literally guard the present, it's because Sonic is the only one that has the power and strength to defeat Solaris, especially when we see Super Sonic pass on his energy to boost Shadow and Silver onto his level.
Yes, the hedgehogs do reference past, present, and future while battling Solaris, but this is merely symbolism, as Solaris is omnipresent through time and sought to destroy time itself. It's not meant to be taken literally. Silver is from the future and his goal was to fix it by travelling back into the past, Shadow references the past as he has his own dark past shrouded in mystery and tragedy, and that leaves Sonic to reference the present.
Last but not least, it would make zero sense for the past, present, and future to be three specific points in time as past, present, and future is simply the culmultative of all of time, and it just being three random locations in time would contradict that.
This is the notion that Shadow fought Solaris specifically in the past, Sonic in the present, and Silver in the future.
Of course, this comes from Shadow saying that beating Solaris would only be possible if Sonic was still alive. As I've proven above, this isn't because they needed Sonic to literally guard the present, it's because Sonic is the only one that has the power and strength to defeat Solaris, especially when we see Super Sonic pass on his energy to boost Shadow and Silver onto his level.
Yes, the hedgehogs do reference past, present, and future while battling Solaris, but this is merely symbolism, as Solaris is omnipresent through time and sought to destroy time itself. It's not meant to be taken literally. Silver is from the future and his goal was to fix it by travelling back into the past, Shadow references the past as he has his own dark past shrouded in mystery and tragedy, and that leaves Sonic to reference the present.
Last but not least, it would make zero sense for the past, present, and future to be three specific points in time as past, present, and future is simply the culmultative of all of time, and it just being three random locations in time would contradict that.
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You do realize if it were literal, then Silver and Shadow could do it without Sonic via being everywhere and everywhen, past present and future, at the same time, right?
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I'm sorry but did you completely miss what I said?
They couldn't do it because only Sonic has the power and strength to beat Solaris.
They couldn't do it because only Sonic has the power and strength to beat Solaris.
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Which is clearly incorrect unless you're saying the other two hedgehogs don't scale to Solaris.ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Even then, my point doesn't change and Sonic could've done it alone because of the exact same point I made above that you completely didn't address.
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It's not incorrect, Super Sonic shared his energy with Shadow and Silver in order for them to access a full powered super form.
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The same energy our profiles imply the two can potentially reach on their own. By what you're saying, Super Shadow and Silver shouldn't be 2-C/B, they should be 5-A, 2-C/B with Super Sonic's energy.
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Maybe he could have. After all, in order for Sonic to even be able to pose a threat to Solaris let alone defeat him, he needed to be at least somewhat comparable to him in power. Although, it does certainly better the odds by having Shadow and Silver in there with him.The real cal howard said:
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Btw, we know that the Sonic-verse has multiple timelines, but we don't know how many, right?
We have some of them in '06, then some others throughout the series, then in Maverick's blog it's mentioned that other outcomes in history could be their own timelines.
Since Solaris was mentioned to be capable of destroying all of them, could this at least bump him to "at least 2-C" since we don't know the exact amount of timelines (I've seen other profiles do this)?
We have some of them in '06, then some others throughout the series, then in Maverick's blog it's mentioned that other outcomes in history could be their own timelines.
Since Solaris was mentioned to be capable of destroying all of them, could this at least bump him to "at least 2-C" since we don't know the exact amount of timelines (I've seen other profiles do this)?
ShakeResounding
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@DMB While that would be the case, Solaris destroying Maginaryworld is 2-B. That's actually the least opposed thing, almost everybody here is in agreement that Solaris is definitively 2-B. The problem is scaling the Super Trio.
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Super Forms are variable, and Solaris is in the same dimentional level as the Super Form's peak, so I don't think it's unreasonable to assume it's not an outlier. It's not like their scaling to a tier 1 or even a High 2-A.
ShakeResounding
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@DMB Ah, gotcha.
I could see people calling it an outlier if Solaris was 2-A, but 2-B is within the realm of possibility. Especially when you consider Sonic beating a certain 2-B in base, even though it's a hilarious outlier.
I could see people calling it an outlier if Solaris was 2-A, but 2-B is within the realm of possibility. Especially when you consider Sonic beating a certain 2-B in base, even though it's a hilarious outlier.
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@DMB 1 Only one who disagrees won't explain why.
@ShakeResounding Lmao yeah, Shuffle has some crazy outliers. That plus a calc that had the base cast fly through Maginaryworld at nonillions of times FTL.
@ShakeResounding Lmao yeah, Shuffle has some crazy outliers. That plus a calc that had the base cast fly through Maginaryworld at nonillions of times FTL.
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Can you send that nonillions calc?ShadowWarrior1999 said:
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Solaris being 2-B got opposed by several people in the thread.ShakeResounding said:
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It was agreed that MaginaryWorld is separate from other timelines, and that there wasn't any indication that Solaris was actually aware or had access to it. Also, I'm pretty sure the Nonillions calc was done via Calc Stacking since traveling to other timelines is more so a range + Dimensional Travel feat rather than a speed one. And it's also the reason Superman's reacting to interdimensional missiles was considered calc'd via "Hiding an outlier".
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"It was agreed."
Definitely not on this thread.
"Maginaryworld is separate from other timelines."
Unless you want to say Maginaryworld lacks time (which it clearly has) then no, not really.
There wasn't any indication that Dimentio was aware of the Dream Depot yet his 2-B comes from it.
Definitely not on this thread.
"Maginaryworld is separate from other timelines."
Unless you want to say Maginaryworld lacks time (which it clearly has) then no, not really.
There wasn't any indication that Dimentio was aware of the Dream Depot yet his 2-B comes from it.
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The difference is that Dream Depot is contained in the Mushroom Kingdom's universe, MaginaryWorld is completely separate from every other universe. Also Cal said it wasn't really a timeline, but a dream that serves as a multiverse in its entirety. Also Dimentio does state that there exist countless dimensions with/or without Dream Depot, making him 2-B either way.
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Please for the love of god do not do like every newgrounds/flash game and put Mario into a Sonic discussion.
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Cal isn't against 2-B though. If you're referring to that one comment he made, he did it as a joke response to me making that thread downgrading Bill Cipher. He mentions Solaris's feat being 2-B after that.
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He actually changed his mind later; now he's against Solaris being 2-B in the first place.
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Can you show me where he said that?
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^The real cal howard said:
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That was precisely the comment I was talking about.
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Cal then said this.The real cal howard said:
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To sum this up:
Shadow to Mephiles: You have no desire for revenge. You only crave destruction. Your only lust is to fuel Iblis until there is nothing left of time itself.
Eggman: Even after mentioning timelines, also brings up Solaris eating dimensions and says time itself would collapse and disappear into nothingness. As a bonus, he also knows Maginaryworld exists. Also if going by the strict definition of timelines:
"A timeline isn't just any random universe. It's an alternate universe created by some sort of time split from the original universe."
The Sol Dimension for example wouldn't fall under that definition, it's a parallel universe. The whole timelines thing is just semantics as clearly in this case it doesn't abide by the strict definition. Plus the Sol Dimension clearly has time.
In the guidebook: "Solaris would transform everything into nothing."
In conclusion, Solaris somehow leaving stuff out when he would destroy everything makes no sense and would be paradoxical.
Shadow to Mephiles: You have no desire for revenge. You only crave destruction. Your only lust is to fuel Iblis until there is nothing left of time itself.
Eggman: Even after mentioning timelines, also brings up Solaris eating dimensions and says time itself would collapse and disappear into nothingness. As a bonus, he also knows Maginaryworld exists. Also if going by the strict definition of timelines:
"A timeline isn't just any random universe. It's an alternate universe created by some sort of time split from the original universe."
The Sol Dimension for example wouldn't fall under that definition, it's a parallel universe. The whole timelines thing is just semantics as clearly in this case it doesn't abide by the strict definition. Plus the Sol Dimension clearly has time.
In the guidebook: "Solaris would transform everything into nothing."
In conclusion, Solaris somehow leaving stuff out when he would destroy everything makes no sense and would be paradoxical.
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Also from Advice to the staff of the VS Battles wiki, we should have a new thread since we past 400 messages already.
- Post new official request threads when the old ones are starting to get full (around 400 messages), by copying the text sections of the original posts in the previous threads.
ShakeResounding
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Good idea.
@Shadow You wanna make it?
@Shadow You wanna make it?
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