Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[Tipper17]

Huh, Blatant comfirmation that Sonic was fighting the Time Eater at his full power, neat

I mean was there any doubt?

 

[Alexander]

then just don't say anything at all??? if you've got nothing constructive or positive to add to the discussion at hand, then just keep your thoughts to yourself; nobody wants to just be hit with the "ok" after sharing their thoughts on something they want to speak about

Because sometimes when i think of something to respond, that same response from me might not be entirely understandable, i once said something in the Sonic subreddit about Amy having a pink super form and not a yellow one, and my comment got downvoted and has like -30?and look i didn't even attempted to look ofensive or anything, i just said what i understand by the moment (and hey at least Trip got a Golden dragon).
And also i don't want to leave things without any response so when things get long or i feel they are not that long or overcomplicated i just say "ok"

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Because sometimes when i think of something to respond, that same response from me might not be entirely understandable, i once said something in the Sonic subreddit about Amy having a pink super form and not a yellow one, and my comment got downvoted and has like -30?and look i didn't even attempted to look ofensive or anything, i just said what i understand by the moment (and hey at least Trip got a Golden dragon).
And also i don't want to leave things without any response so when things get long or i feel they are not that long or overcomplicated i just say "ok"

I usually just say "I see." instead of "Okay". Gives people the impression you're at least listening or have some interest. This isn't a dig at you, just some advice cuz I know some people can get confused since reading tone through text is hard.

 

[Alexander]

I usually just say "I see." instead of "Okay". Gives people the impression you're at least listening or have some interest. This isn't a dig at you, just some advice cuz I know some people can get confused since reading tone through text is hard.

I can agree on that, sometimes i want to understand what are they even writing?

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

I can agree on that, sometimes i want to understand what are they even writing?

Yeah, fair.

 

[Remus1998]

New Big Archie revision, check it out.

Archie Sonic Upgrades; 2-C base cast, Tons of new Abilities and more

Today we are upgrading Archie once again, beginning with more simple stuff, let's goooo!!! Espio gets: Possibly Intangiblity (His Espio Man form has access to Chroma Camo, ability that makes one intangible, he is shown behind Mega Man when he uses it and his game counterpart can use it too, so...

vsbattles.com

The LeBron of Archie Revisions right here

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Translation from Windii.

Cool, adds more support for 1-C Devil Doom and Doom Shadow. The Ian Flynn Bumblecast statement about Black Doom threatening to destroy all creation felt fairly blatant to me, but from a VSB perspective also felt like too little for a solid rating on the profiles. Both this and the in-game implications of them being vaguely Time Eater level should be more than enough.

 

[Executor_N0]

I find funny the idea that Sonic might remember what happened in an erased timeline, but can't remember who Black Doom is

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I find funny the idea that Sonic might remember what happened in an erased timeline, but can't remember who Black Doom is

Tbf, the way Shadow says Black Doom’s name after the Biolizard fight kinda looks like he forgot what it was for a moment and was trying to remember lol

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Moro has officially allowed me to overlook the research side of Bowser vs Eggman and let me enjoy if for what it is. What a goat. It doesn't mean the research team gets a free pass of course. But it does mean I can finally like the episode the same as everyone else. Thanks Moro!

 

[Remus1998]

No way are people actually wondering if Archie Eggman would change the result. The Bowser glaze/Eggman downplay is next level. NOW I'm actually kind of upset that Death Battle made it seem like Bowser stomps.

This is insanity ngl

 

[Snek]

This is insanity ngl

They're acting like Bowser would just tank a super genesis wave lol.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

They're acting like Bowser would just tank a super genesis wave lol.

Bowser with the Pure Hearts: Nah, I'd win

 

[ShrekAnakin]

Moro has officially allowed me to overlook the research side of Bowser vs Eggman and let me enjoy if for what it is. What a goat. It doesn't mean the research team gets a free pass of course. But it does mean I can finally like the episode the same as everyone else. Thanks Moro!

Bro was being SUPER fair to both sides in this too. He's just kind of him right now. I'll critique how they handled the explanation and research on both, but I'll appreciate Moro's passion and creativity enough for me to appreciate him and the episode on a better level.

 

[Lenyo456]

I still have a bad taste in my mouth when I see this DB, but it's not as bad as the Mario vs Sonic one...that one is just cursed with pure disrespect.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I still have a bad taste in my mouth when I see this DB, but it's not as bad as the Mario vs Sonic one...that one is just cursed with pure disrespect.

That's completely fair, and my opinion on Ultraguy is definitely no more favorable than before.

 

[Snek]

That's completely fair, and my opinion on Ultraguy is definitely no more favorable than before.

Ya it's kind of crazy that they found a way to make one of the closest and most complicated match ups I could think of come off like a stomp.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Ya it's kind of crazy that they found a way to make one of the closest and most complicated match ups I could think of come off like a stomp.

Technically, even the debatable nature of the fight is itself debatable, because I could potentially argue that Eggman stomps in the stat department. With stats equalized, it's already one of the most complex and close matchups in the show's history though, and their arguments for Bowser winning in that department AND in stats suck ass. That's the real issue.

 

[JJSliderman]

I have seen Ultra’s Q&A on the fight, obviously I can’t talk about it but they do bring up some interesting feats and abilities for Team Bowser that make it closer.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I have seen Ultra’s Q&A on the fight, obviously I can’t talk about it but they do bring up some interesting feats and abilities for Team Bowser that make it closer.

Is it not out yet?

 

[ShrekAnakin]

I have seen Ultra’s Q&A on the fight, obviously I can’t talk about it but they do bring up some interesting feats and abilities for Team Bowser that make it closer.

Oh it's private isn't it?

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Wait, why isn't there one for Omnidock?? Did it stay private too? Why?

 

[JJSliderman]

A lot of these are in the Discord server, you need to pay to get in so it would feel wrong sharing.

 

[MysticMania]

A lot of these are in the Discord server, you need to pay to get in so it would feel wrong sharing.

I agree.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

A lot of these are in the Discord server, you need to pay to get in so it would feel wrong sharing.

@JJSliderman I know you likely can't go into specifics, but did Ultraguy go into specifics in regards to the episode's claim that Bowser and Eggman had equally powerful trump cards? Because my assumption is that in DB's eyes: Bowser and Eggman are equal at their absolute peaks, but Bowser is stronger than Eggman in their base stats and normal forms/machines.

 

[JJSliderman]

I’m sorry, probably shouldn’t answer.
If you are interested you can prolly pay 3 dollars to get in, then cancel your membership, you still get to stay.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Hmm...nah, I'll just go by what was said in the episode and assume that Eggman and Bowser are equal at their peaks, but that Bowser takes stats in base and most forms.

My apologies, and no disrespect to DB, but I don't see much reason to spend three dollars to get in their Discord server just to know the thought process of their research. Such information should be available publicly to everyone, but it's their choice.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

One can only imagine what argument they could possibly make to put Solaris and co below Immeasurable lol

 

[Snek]

Technically, even the debatable nature of the fight is itself debatable, because I could potentially argue that Eggman stomps in the stat department. With stats equalized, it's already one of the most complex and close matchups in the show's history though, and their arguments for Bowser winning in that department AND in stats suck ass. That's the real issue.

Agreed it kind of did feel like they were grasping at straws a little bit which was wierd since I feel they had better ways to argue for a Bowser win. Here are afew complaints I have for their analysis.

1. Why spend time talking about the Egg Dragoon. Petty complaint I know but genuinely why did they spend time talking about some mid tier mech when there are a million things in Eggmans arsenal that are more important to address. Usually I wouldn't complain about this sort of thing but with how complex this match is it felt like they wasted precious time on a mech with nothing to offer when said time could be better spent elsewhere.

2. Why compare the castle feat from giant Bowser to literally a random Death Egg Robot to justify Bowser having a power advantage. This is petty again but both of them have universal or higher feats so why would giant Bowser being superior to a random Death Egg Robot mean anything. It's kind of like if I gave Eggman the power advantage by saying oh ya the Egg Salamander can probably overpower Goomboss so Eggman is stronger. Especially since the black hole comparison was there to compare base Bowser to regular Eggman tech so I just don't get why the castle punch and Death Egg laser had to be emphasized in the conclusion.

3. For the speed scaling I do appreciate the fact they mentioned immeasurable speed arguments in the corner boxes so I won't give them flack for that but it is odd that they neglected to mention base Sonic crossing the night palace or breaking out of null space. I can understand why they wouldn't accept the statements of these spaces being infinite after all infinite can just mean vast but even using standard universe size these feats go far beyond ftl to the point of being close to Mario. Also it was funny that they said the light of Solaris extended across multiple timelines only to use 1/2 of a universe for their calc.

Anyways thats about all for the stat side of things but overall this episode is still a massive improvement from Mario vs Sonic 2.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Why spend time talking about the Egg Dragoon. Petty complaint I know but genuinely why did they spend time talking about some mid tier mech when there are a million things in Eggmans arsenal that are more important to address. Usually I wouldn't complain about this sort of thing but with how complex this match is it felt like they wasted precious time on a mech with nothing to offer when said time could be better spent elsewhere.

The Egg Dragoon is sorta Modern Eggman's signature mech, he did use it in both Unleashed and Forces afterall.
I do also believe that it's his strongest mech, from the ones that don't rely on an outside source.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I’m sorry, probably shouldn’t answer.
If you are interested you can prolly pay 3 dollars to get in, then cancel your membership, you still get to stay.

Bruh... but not surprising.

Hmm...nah, I'll just go by what was said in the episode and assume that Eggman and Bowser are equal at their peaks, but that Bowser takes stats in base and most forms.

My apologies, and no disrespect to DB, but I don't see much reason to spend three dollars to get in their Discord server just to know the thought process of their research. Such information should be available publicly to everyone, but it's their choice.

Considering I now know of at least two VSBW users that got banned from the DB discord server (one was a temporary ban for just wanting to know the thought process of the inflated Sundisk calc for Omnidock, the other was a permanent ban for "saying at least VSBW users do research for free" when the server was roasting this site's stats), I think it's best to leave them to their echo chamber and move on. Just enjoy the episodes and ignore the research (unless it's blatantly spreading misinformation like Omnidock), call me sociopathic but the public masses are stupid and easily influenced hence why the largest, loudest and most popluar groups are often considered the most "correct" such is the reality we live in.

 

[Snek]

The Egg Dragoon is sorta Modern Eggman's signature mech, he did use it in both Unleashed and Forces afterall.
I do also believe that it's the strongest mech that doesn't rely on an outside source.

I guess so but all they said about it was that it's really cool has ice missiles, an electric drill and shoot bullets. Right after they mentioned a star busting super laser so it felt really odd for them to bring it up.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

The Egg Dragoon is sorta Modern Eggman's signature mech, he did use it in both Unleashed and Forces afterall.
I do also believe that it's his strongest mech, from the ones that don't rely on an outside source.

I don't know about Forces or Gens but I do believe in Unleashed the Egg Dragoon was fuelled by Dark Gaia energy personally I'm more of an Egg Emperor fan.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

the other was a permanent ban for "saying at least VSBW users do research for free" when the server was roasting this site's stats),

Okay, that's actually real petty for the Discord to do. They want to talk shit about how this site's stats but still use our blogs yet don't like it when people call out their research? Genuinely disappointing.

But you're right: Eggman vs Bowser was a genuinely amazing episode and even though I disagreed with parts of the research, I acknowledge that they're not going to think like I am.

 

[Executor_N0]

I wonder why conflict is even necessary, it should be so easy to just engage in health discussion, understand different systems, and stuff like that. There should be no reason to get aggressive, I'll never understand that.

 

[Alexander]

I wonder why conflict is even necessary, it should be so easy to just engage in health discussion, understand different systems, and stuff like that. There should be no reason to get aggressive, I'll never understand that.

i will never understand

 

[Peptocoptr27]

One can only imagine what argument they could possibly make to put Solaris and co below Immeasurable lol

They really think Mario's immeasurable arguments are equally valid and that there's no way for Sonic to scale to 2nd degree immeasurable speed (if they even think that exists).

Agreed it kind of did feel like they were grasping at straws a little bit which was wierd since I feel they had better ways to argue for a Bowser win. Here are afew complaints I have for their analysis.

1. Why spend time talking about the Egg Dragoon. Petty complaint I know but genuinely why did they spend time talking about some mid tier mech when there are a million things in Eggmans arsenal that are more important to address. Usually I wouldn't complain about this sort of thing but with how complex this match is it felt like they wasted precious time on a mech with nothing to offer when said time could be better spent elsewhere.

If they used it as a segway to Sonic power-scalling and the power growth in the series (Egg Dragoon upscaling from the Super Egg Robot and past Super Sonic foes), I would totally get it, but they didn't, so I kind of agree with you.

3. For the speed scaling I do appreciate the fact they mentioned immeasurable speed arguments in the corner boxes so I won't give them flack for that but it is odd that they neglected to mention base Sonic crossing the night palace or breaking out of null space. I can understand why they wouldn't accept the statements of these spaces being infinite after all infinite can just mean vast but even using standard universe size these feats go far beyond ftl to the point of being close to Mario. Also it was funny that they said the light of Solaris extended across multiple timelines only to use 1/2 of a universe for their calc.

The latter is definitely ridiculous

Anyways thats about all for the stat side of things but overall this episode is still a massive improvement from Mario vs Sonic 2.

Thank god. Can you imagine if it wasn't?

 

[JJSliderman]

I will say the Q&A gave me some more ideas of how Eggman could match Bowser so, I’ll put them in a doc responding to it.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I will say the Q&A gave me some more ideas of how Eggman could match Bowser so, I’ll put them in a doc responding to it.

Mystic is also working on a list of issues with the episode. I don't know if you'd be interested in working together, but here's what I sent him (he's free to use any, or none of this for his future post):

"If you want to specifically compare the Phantom Ruby to the Wonder Flowers, it's worth noting that the latter's random nature has backfired on the likes of Bowser Jr before.

The argument that The Pure Hearts cancel out Eggman's best win cons is flawed for reasons laid out by the G1 Blog. They also bring up why Bowser has no reliable counter to the Egg Field, as does my breakdown of the matchup. The argument Death Battle used that it requires prep time is ridiculous given the rules for this match being that both fighters have access to everything including one-offs they obtained through preparation.

I can already say one of the things that bothers me most is speed. They put both at incalculable speeds in the black box with "equal levity". Except if there was actually equal levity, the same logic that gets base Mario to universal+ gets base Sonic to low multi via scaling to the shatterverse and the baseline power of 7 Emeralds. The same logic that gets base Mario to quadrillions of times the speed of light can get base Sonic anywhere between quintillions to sextillions depending on how much you want to accept in this scaling chain.

(The next part needs to be double-checked, so it's by no means a necessary inclusion): As for cosmology sizes, Mario's higher dimensional arguments (aside from string theory soup, for which Sonic also has an argument for via being a parralel universe to Sonic Boom where string theory is canon) come from Matter Splatter Galaxy's hyperspace, and the Cutout space, which is stated to be superior to time and space. The official website of Sonic Riders confirms that the Sonic universe also has a hyperspace in it (supported by Eggman creating virtual realities within it that contains a tesseract). And the reality that Eggman and Eggman Nega were going to create in Sonic Rush is stated to surpass dimensions in much the same way Cutout world is stated to for space-time. This is without accounting for the infinite 4-dimensional space of Maginary World or the infinite tunnel dimension's second temporal dimension. So with eqaul lee-way and practically identical arguments, anything that gets Mario cosmology to 5D-6D gets Sonic cosmology to 7D-8D.
As for beyond finite speed, they claim that equal levity can get both at infinite/immeasurable with ease, but even if you want to disregard the aforementionned scaling chain that allows Sonic to upscale from those values, the high end interpretations of both sides' cosmologies would make Sonic and Eggman's speed scale to the immeasurable speed of the second temporal dimension of their cosmology (via Solaris, who exists all throughout it and Time Eater who physically travels through it during the boss fight), a.k.a second degree immeasurable speed.

That's it for now. Those are the big things I wanted to get out there, but that I am in no state to argue in great detail about. Feel free to use any of this for your post, and let me know what it looks like! I may not be interested in engaging in the discussion, but I'll absolutely love seeing the work in progress and final product."

 

[MysticMania]

I will say the Q&A gave me some more ideas of how Eggman could match Bowser so, I’ll put them in a doc responding to it.

You don't have to of course, but if you do want to discuss things in DMs of what you may disagree with, you're welcome to. Even if it's not "for" anything, I'm down to listen.
I'm making a post for somewhere that'll go into my own thoughts on the episode's research and stuff. Not necessarily going into why I feel DB's "wrong", but really just going into my disagreements with what is brought to the table.