Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[MysticMania]

Mystic is also working on a list of issues with the episode. I don't know if you'd be interested in working together, but here's what I sent him (he's free to use any, or none of this for his future post):

Thank you again, for your thoughts.

 

[Issen_Mk_III]

Bowser won because of Moon Block, not Sun Disk.

 

[MysticMania]

Moon Block VS Astroid guard break

 

[Cyberblader90]

Cool, adds more support for 1-C Devil Doom and Doom Shadow. The Ian Flynn Bumblecast statement about Black Doom threatening to destroy all creation felt fairly blatant to me, but from a VSB perspective also felt like too little for a solid rating on the profiles. Both this and the in-game implications of them being vaguely Time Eater level should be more than enough.

Which cast was this

 

[Executor_N0]

Doom Morph for sure is my favorite

 

[ShrekAnakin]

Bruh... but not surprising.

Considering I now know of at least two VSBW users that got banned from the DB discord server (one was a temporary ban for just wanting to know the thought process of the inflated Sundisk calc for Omnidock, the other was a permanent ban for "saying at least VSBW users do research for free" when the server was roasting this site's stats), I think it's best to leave them to their echo chamber and move on. Just enjoy the episodes and ignore the research (unless it's blatantly spreading misinformation like Omnidock), call me sociopathic but the public masses are stupid and easily influenced hence why the largest, loudest and most popluar groups are often considered the most "correct" such is the reality we live in.

Man the stories I could tell about the crazy shit on the community server.

 

[FaceOff81]

I don't see how this one-off moment justifies it being used as an entirety across the entire verse. Just feels like a one and done situation, especially since this is a Silver Age, early comic thing that is pretty much never used again. Off-Panel just seems like author insertion or something adjacent to that. It's like saying Arale from Dragon Ball beating up Toribot makes her outerversal, beyond the creator-god level or something. It just sounds dumb. I personally just wouldn't that any of that seriously in an actual debate and seems more like wank for the sake of wank oftentimes. I respect the fact that you aren't toxic about it, even if I do disagree with what you say.

You know what else are one off moments, those gem stones that allowed Sonic to become elastic when he was squished by a boulder. Yet those are included in his profile. Even if it is a one-off moment, it has been utilized in a manner where we see Sonic defeat Eggman so it rightfully should be warranted as an ability of his. Adding onto this, we see in Sonic Live that Sonic is literally pulling real world humans into his world from a TV which supports the case even more. Off-Panel is nothing like author insertion due to there being exclusive enemies present like Deadline and even then, we see characters deciding how the plot would be dictated within the Comic itself. The reason why it's considered more than just an Omake let alone something that would be qualified as Outerversial is due to how the cosmology of the verse itself supports higher dimensional planes of reality (some of which has merit for being Outerversial but SOME MODS love to cherry-pick definitions and interpretations to make it now the case whatsoever. Definitely one of my major critiques regarding what gets approved on the site and what doesn't along with how it would be interpreted. Powerscaling is mostly subjective with some objective elements after all so scale it however you like) and in general is complex as hell. That's not even getting into how it's connected to the Image Comics Multiverse which is already its own can of worms.

I don't think that's really any reason to make Super Sonic weaker than Ultra Sonic. Seems like a taped-together reasoning for a form that's never truly explained. It just doesn't have the feats and I can't agree with this. It's really just 007-ing right now.

I disagree. The case against it doesn't make sense other than because of lack of appearances. The implications present and power sources present to power Sonic do hold a stronger case for Ultra Sonic > Super Sonic. Now, feel free to disagree of course. Powerscaling is subjective with some objective elements after all.

The way I see it, all Seven Super Emeralds Super Sonic > Regular Super Sonic (includes Post-Great Harmony and Post-Genesis Wave) and if one Super Emerald can turn Sonic into Super Sonic AND Ultra Sonic, then it makes sense that all Seven Super Emeralds would just do the same thing but MUCH stronger.

1. I never said that the Super Emeralds weren't stronger than the Chaos Emeralds, I just said that it's vague as to ONE Super Emerald being stronger than all Seven Chaos Emeralds. It just doesn't add up. It being POTENTIALLY stronger than the entire set of regular Chaos Emeralds just seems like headcanon, to me. The "used for emergencies" thing would have come up, like, way more often when they actually mattered. It's only come up a total of three times in the comic's entire run and in none of them does it have solid-enough evidence with Ultra Sonic being stronger than Super Sonic. These vague implications are very weak and don't add much to its non-fraudulency in terms of its power. It having more screentime in that instance doesn't make it stronger. That was around its debut comic, so of course it'd get some screentime. Super Sonic was hardly relevant then. I just don't see the vision. Just feels like an extreme reach to me.

Well....usually if all Seven are needed to obtain a Super Form yet a single Super Emerald is able to do so, I'd say that a single Super Emerald > All 7 Chaos Emeralds. Regarding the utilized for emergencies argument, usually they bet on the Seven Chaos Emeralds due to them being more easily accessible which in the context of the stories, was able to win against the big bad threats. Used for emergencies is typically structured to where even the Chaos Emeralds are not enough or if they have to rely on another sort of power source (Super Emeralds). I do agree that them being early on in the comics does make things even more complicated for accurate powerscaling, but from what we have seen, the stronger case here is Ultra Sonic > Super Sonic thanks to the power source of the Super Emerald being utilized. I understand why you disagree here, but I don't see how that isn't clear cut other than lack of screen time. I wouldn't say it's a vague implication when we've seen it right in front of our eyes in issue 71. I also disagree regarding Super Sonic not being relevant back then. We've seen Super Sonic and Super Knuckles clash so hard to the point where an entire zone exploded and they both fought against Mammoth Mogul alongside Super Tails.

2. A power source that he knows how to utilize rather well as if it was second nature. I don't think this is relevant in this case. It's a form that he uses. I just don't see anything that Ultra Sonic has done that Super Sonic couldn't. Just seems like a lot of wank for the form that barely has showings. Ultra Sonic is just a rather dubious form that isn't even brought up much if at all, so I don't see the value in trying to reach so far to get this form to this level of strength. It isn't shown to do anything Super Sonic is unable to, it never comes up when it should count later on, and its applications seem useless. Why would the form need environmental adaptation if Super Sonic is just invincible and could fly. Why use atomic manipulation when he could just reality warp? He could already use BFR in Super by just using reality warping and just shunt him to another zone. It just seems like a completely useless form in comparison and Super just completely outshines it, yet it keeps getting clouted up as actually stronger than it's actually shown to be.

I think it is when you're trying to compare more complex fights found in Dragon Ball fights vs with more streamlined and straight-forward fights like Sonic. Wank is definitely a reach here since at worst, it's not out of the question and has a nice foundation compared to just wand-waiving it as something less than Super. Ultra Sonic is very similar to Hyper Sonic in that it barely comes up at all yet are both supplied by a superior power source being the Super Emeralds making them more powerful than Super Sonic. As I've stated before, it should count towards being utilized in cases of emergencies due to how sometimes the Chaos Emeralds are either not enough or unavailable where they needed to utilize a different power source. Even then, when they utilized the Chaos Emeralds, we see that they always pull through so there was never any need to utilize Ultra Sonic. The way that Ultra Sonic works is that it has a much greater connection to the Ixis Magicks compared to Super Sonic while also due to it being above Super Sonic thanks to the Super Emerald, the form allows for perfect mastery over Chaos Energy. The Ixis Magicks has HEAVY amounts of Atomic Manipulation. We've seen Ixis Naugus utilize such abilities on both in-organic and organic material (see when he turned Bunny Rabot's robotic parts to flesh and blood) to which we've seen Sonic scale to and surpass with his Super and Ultra Forms. In other words, Ultra Sonic has Greater Atomic and Elemental Manipulation compared to Super Sonic but also obtains new powers such as BFR and Adaptation to thrive more in different environments. That's not to say that Super is unable to thrive in said environment, but Ultra Sonic tailors specifically to survive in that environment while also allowing for easier traversal. Also, Ultra Sonic can fly as well. Super Sonic can use Sealing. Not BFR. Ultra Sonic can do BFR into the Zone of Silence. In other words, there is exclusivity for Ultra Sonic that Super Sonic does not have but that's irrelevant when Ultra Sonic already has everything Super Sonic has and more (even if it isn't too much in comparison). When it comes to why doesn't Super Sonic just reality warp in comparison to Ultra Sonic manipulating atoms, you don't need to fix a smaller solution with a bigger hammer depending on the situation. That's not to say the bigger hammer wouldn't work, but it's more impractical in comparison. Again, I disagree with it being useless when compared to Super Sonic. Super Sonic being able to do all that it has shown (all of which being impressive) yet thanks to Ultra Sonic being above it (thank you Super Emerald), makes Ultra Sonic a little bit more impressive even if it hasn't been shown as much in comparison.

3. I don't take Ian statements all too seriously unless it's something lore-related. His powerscaling is dog, so I'm more than likely going to knock it.

Yeah.....I don't blame you for this. The way I go about it is that I only take powerscaling statements when it's either used in conjunction to explain lore-related things, meant to clarify events that had happened within the comics, or if it lines up with already established evidence present within the comics in general. That's one of the reasons I agree with Ian Flynn stating that Ultra Sonic > Super Sonic espeically when it's been implied and shown through the superior power source being the Super Emerald powering Sonic but WHOLE HEARTELY disagree with him saying Dark Enerjak > Ultra Sonic because of it being a potentially cool narrative and nothing else. Ultra Sonic > Dark Enerjak any and all day.

Well.....now that I've finished my giant long reply. The only thing I have left to say is what I've said before. Powerscaling is mostly subjective with some objective elements. So scale it however you like whether you agree or disagree.

 

[FaceOff81]

Death Battle does this on purpose. I remember either hearing or seeing a video where someone said that putting purposely incorrect information draws comments to the video so they can correct it, thus bringing more views than if they said it right. Death Battle constantly does this in basically every episode, so either they're so bad at media analysis they can't get anything right, OR it's completely itentional.

I wholeheartedly agree with this comment right here.

 

[FaceOff81]

Shadow Generations was almost praised universally and gave us the strongest sense of "We're so back" in years Sonic Generations portion not so much

Other than that, there's a lot of constant work going on to improve the quality of the pages, so they're at least well-sourced even if people don't agree with certain things at the end of the day. Takes a ton of time but it's worth it

If they didn't do those unnecessary re-writes/re-dubbing, this would be a different story. That's it.

 

[FaceOff81]

No, this is totally Death Battle's fault. I would've found Infinite's fate funny if Sonic wasn't so ****** in Death Battle. Every single episode has some form of spite, it's incredible.

That is also incredibly true. There is a suspicious amount of spite in a lot of Death Battle episodes even outside of the Sonic ones (even though they are one of the most spitted verses).

 

[FaceOff81]

There's a bunch of random Mario characters who can be made fun of and yet they didn't get any spite. Again, if Death Battle had a better history with Sonic I wouldn't have minded it. But we have Shadow spite in two out of his three episodes, Knuckles spite, Sonic spite and now Infinite spite plus Eggman not even getting a cool end boss mech. Lame.

I loathe the Sonic spite. Both Game and ESPECIALLY Archie.

 

[MysticMania]

No, this is totally Death Battle's fault. I would've found Infinite's fate funny if Sonic wasn't so ****** in Death Battle. Every single episode has some form of spite, it's incredible.

I do agree with this. Each episode tends to have one line of either disgust or shame, it feels like.

 

[FaceOff81]

I honestly didn’t give a shit about the match-up at all. I do think it was pretty BS to practically say Silver stomps when Heroes Trunks vs Archie Silver is far closer than their canon counterpart, but Death Battle's Archie agenda transcends all.

The only time I wanted a Dragon Ball character to beat a Sonic character (Future Trunks is my favorite Dragon Ball character while Silver is tied with my most hated Sonic characters). It would be the only two times if Chi-Chi Vs Amy was a thing.

 

[FaceOff81]

“Archie Agenda”, Archie Sonic was scattered across the multiverse by a DC herald, let’s be real. Death Battle has its issues with sonic scaling no doubt but you are personally treating it like they are going outta their way to spite YOU specifically. Sometimes a spade is a spade and they just go the path of least resistance (or just plain straight up have dogshit takes).

Which shouldn't have been the case. I bet, those atoms will eventually come back together for more bullshit from Death Battle. At least Rewind Rumble's episode is still present at least.

 

[FaceOff81]

Bro, it's DC. They're the top dog of Death Battle, nobody is going to beating a DC herald any time soon. They thinking Sonic vs Flash is a far fight is insane when they thought Dragon Ball stomps Game Sonic.

At this point, I just don't even watch Death Battle whatsoever. My time is spent else where when it comes to powerscaling because I need genuine and real arguments instead of nonsensical crap that's meant to make people deliberately angry.

 

[FaceOff81]

If it means anything, Ultraguy's recent Shadow blog has him acknowledging Erazor Djinn's feat of absorbing the Arabian Nights and causing it to begin disappearing as part of base form scaling. So there is a chance that Ultraguy, at least, acknowledges one or two universal high ends for base Sonic.

Not that it means that Sonic beats Mario, especially if DB thinks Mario edges out in speed and hax, but I think it's a lot closer compared to where it was years ago.

I'm so sick and tired of seeing Ultraguy pop up everywhere when it comes to Sonic powerscaling. This guy is so blatantly biased and boy does it get old. Even if he has cooled down as of recently, you still see a lot of absolute garbage laid out everywhere. He needs to get out of powerscaling or at the very least, leave Sonic alone since he and the rest of Death Battle have proven to constantly fail with the verse time and time again.

 

[FaceOff81]

DB will either completely avoid Goku vs Sonic at all costs or do every form of mental gymnastics there is to make Goku win somehow.

Thank you for giving us a glimpse into the future.

 

[Omegabronic]

If they didn't do those unnecessary re-writes/re-dubbing, this would be a different story. That's it.

I prefer the rewrittes for the most part. Knuckles not being represented as an massive joke of an idiot, is better anyday

 

[Omegabronic]

The only time I wanted a Dragon Ball character to beat a Sonic character (Future Trunks is my favorite Dragon Ball character while Silver is tied with my most hated Sonic characters). It would be the only two times if Chi-Chi Vs Amy was a thing.

Amy absolutely stomps tho what?

 

[FaceOff81]

This is the main reason why I hate Death Battle. The mask was off exactly when I saw so many Death Battle fans rushing to this website to gloat in our faces and make fun of our stats. Toxicity like this makes me wonder if Mario downgrades were completely deserved, since it seems Death Battle and their spite is all they have.

I absolutely hate those Death Battle fans. They make discourse regarding these debates WAY too difficult thanks to Death Battle's slimy researching tactics and often downright false arguments. I do agree that there has to be some form of spite present within Death Battle because it can't always be this consistently bad yet here we are.

 

[FaceOff81]

Amy absolutely stomps tho what?

I know she does. I just really hate her and Silver and wished their opponent would win. Then again, I don't like Chi-Chi that much either.

 

[FaceOff81]

You honestly wouldn't say this if Eggman won, Sonic fans are as spiteful and as toxic

They shouldn't be if he did win.

 

[FaceOff81]

Death Battle made their fans.

Indeed they did.

 

[Omegabronic]

I know she does. I just really hate her and Silver and wished their opponent would win. Then again, I don't like Chi-Chi that much either.

Bruh, then you complain about Ultraguy being biased.......ironic lol

 

[FaceOff81]

I'd love to see Digital Circuit/Mad Matrix but completely reimagined.

SAME!

 

[FaceOff81]

Bruh, then you complain about Ultraguy being biased.......ironic lol

I'm complaining about him being biased in terms of research. Characters in terms of likability is a different story. I understand that unfortunately Amy beats Chi-Chi and Silver beats Future Trunks (that includes Archie and Heroes as well), but I will admit that I don't like those characters in terms of them being characters. When it comes to research, I have to put my biases aside. Ultraguy DOES NOT do that and that is what makes severely dislike him.

 

[FaceOff81]

Death Battle mischaracterizes characters based on wonderfully bad media literacy, completely misunderstands basic Sonic lore, and spitefully mock and humiliate Sonic characters and yet I am supposed to like the episode simply because the animator tried his hardest to add some Sonic hype in the episode? Nah. Moro tried but he couldn't save this episode from being basically Mario vs Sonic 2 Villain Edition. If the animation was like the latter people would realize this. Moro saved this episode.

Just don't even bother with Death Battle at this point. This place is objectively better in terms of Sonic scaling in every way imaginable and there's already a plethora of debunks present. All of which is rightfully deserved.

 

[FaceOff81]

Sonic would still be stronger because actual infinite multiverse + Maginaryworld

+ Hypertimelines

 

[FaceOff81]

People had issue with it and immediately made threads for Archie to "save" it. As if Games having a stronger base was the end of the world. Along with trying to clout Archie up all the way to 1-A.

I still believe there is merit for that but I've already talked about that in a previous reply. Ignoring that, there should be a thread to get both the Games and Archie up to at least 1-B. I don't know what the status on that is truth be told.

 

[FaceOff81]

It is, so I don't know why people want to suck it off so badly. They wanted to make an argument for Off-Panel being 1-A or something. I honestly still don't buy into Archie Sonic's one-off and never-used-again plot manipulation, the "i always win" aura, and quite a bit of Archie bull-ish. The glaze just gets really annoying, especially when people try to downplay the games to hell and back while singing the praises of that mid-ahh comic.

The comic has a plethora of amazing moments truth be told. I will say that it also has some of the most ABSYMAL moments in all of fiction whatsoever that make me just as much if not more angry than any sort of media that comes out today.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

+ Hypertimelines

The general view of hypertimelines outside of VSBW adjacent communities is not favorable

 

[FaceOff81]

If Ultraguy was legit scaling Super Neo Metal to full power Super Sonic the instant he said "I'LL CRUSH YOU!!!" the credits should've rolled. Bowser & his entire army would've been erased. Debatable my ass.

Indeed bro.

 

[FaceOff81]

How tf is "woke" ANYTHING in any Sonic game? Like......what is the connection to be made?

Also......the hell is "dei"?

It's a long story where truth be told, is filled with a lot of reaches with smidgens of truth.