Son Goku vs Rayquaza

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

The gap not that Big? Dude, he is above ray assuming he never got stronger from piccolo, when actually, he could look at piccolo and splatter him while in base . Nappa can shred fighters above piccolo casualky, and base goku is on par .

>exhausted after one hit. Not even at all?

276? That is being conservative while actually being far higher .

>just nuke him.

Also, goku can just nuke him.

 

[Amexim]

J-Man is spitting raw fax

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

276 is after boosting himself for a second. If people wanna play that game, it's instnatly mitigated with a single Dragon Dance, which is permanent (for the sake of the battle), hasn't no drawbacks, and has more usages.

Honestly, I'm getting sick of how much you guys are using this power creep. No other series gets away with it to this extent.

 

[AKM sama]

I'm also agreeing with JMan and Goku should win via AP advantage.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Note how when Piccolo's feat was Low 5-B, this powerscaling was never done like this, as Goku in KKx3 would've been put to far above baseline 5-B. But no, he was baseline.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Funny cal but dragon ball, and actually plenty others do thst .

Also apparently raditz can vaporize the 69 zetta piccolo . Add that into the scaling .

>for a second.

Literally what? Kaioken lasts for awhile .

 

[Noahkaismith]

Kaio Ken Goku, yeah. But we're abusing the power creep in the series otherwise.

Kaioken x4 Goku > Kaioken x3 Goku > Vegeta > Goku > Nappa > Piccolo > Raditz = Saibamen > Goku (Pre-training) > Piccolo who is baseline (Pre-training)

I wouldn't say that's abusing the power creep, It's just that Goku is significantly stronger than Piccolo.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Kaio Ken lasts for a heartbeat.

And no they don't. I already used the Mewtwo to Charmeleon example, but there's more. Dante doesn't have the + despite being absurdly above Abigail, Acnologia is stupidly above a beaten Erza, but doesn't even increase 2x to get High 6-C+, Dialga's heartbeat is Low 2-C, but doesn't increase to 2-C until he scales from Darkrai, X Antibody Digimon are so above their normal counterparts that they don't compare, but are still in the same tier, any universe creator who does it causally is considered baseline, etc.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Kaioken x4 Goku > Kaioken x3 Goku > Vegeta > Goku > Nappa > Piccolo > Raditz = Saibamen > Goku (Pre-training) > Piccolo who is baseline (Pre-training)

I wouldn't say that's abusing the power creep, It's just that Goku is significantly stronger than Piccolo.

And given our rules, Goku without proper scaling to a higher feat, is assumed to be at least that amount, without guesstimates on how much higher.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Kaioken lasts long enough he can have like one big fight in the thing .

Feats >statements .

Yet Steven universe got tier jumps from doing a feat while weakened wgen bordering . Or all mightvwith one statement. Not my fault about the rest .

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

>Feats are greater than statements.

>Vote is based on Kaioken statements.

Yes. Weakened. And bordering. Piccolo wasn't weakened, and his feat was borderline baseline on the low as opposed to the high. So comparison doesn't work.

 

[Noahkaismith]

Raditz easily beat Piccolo. Piccolo (post-training) could one shot a saibamen, which is equal to Raditz. Nappa could one shot Piccolo. Goku could easily beat Nappa. Kaioken x4 is 4x that. While it is true we can't say just how strong they are, we can at least say that Goku is far stronger than Piccolo.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

We say he's at least (insert Piccolo's value here) joules. Which is less than Rayquaza. Rules are rules.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Yeah, piccolo, now add raditz, saibmen, piccolo again, krillin, Nappa, Vegeta . Feats like vaporizing saud piccolo, or saibmen. And Kaioken had statements and feats cal.

But yet not talking about piccolo am I ? Talking about Goku that can shitstomp him. X4 .

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Kirby vaporizes a dude who vaporizes half a galaxy by awakening. Guess who's not 3-C? How you kill them means nothing.

 

[Noahkaismith]

Where is this even going?

 

[Amexim]

It's been portrayed over and over again to last for more than a second/heartbeat. Goku vs Hit? Even if you wanna play that game, sure, we can give you Dragon Dance. And in all of those debates, and all of those scenarios, those characters are well known to be above what they're listed as, right? Pointing out where this is or isn't done doesn't change the truth of this or any of those scenarios. All of those characters are low-balled, and from what you're telling me, they should be what you say they are, or at the very least have "likely" in front of them, and a "Far, Far Higher" for those that aren't known to the exact extent.

It's not abusing a power creep if it's a part of the story, Cal. Tbh Goku's profile already says "higher" and "even higher" so we can take the power creep into account, just not with exact numbers.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

We're quantifying Goku before continuing the votes.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

The only one debating is ya cal. But can debate with ya if that usvwhat ya want.

And yeah the method, but oh well , still shows the considerable power.

And kirby matters why?

 

[Noahkaismith]

We're quantifying Goku before continuing the votes.

OK, I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that Goku is just above Piccolo by an unquantifable amount. It's not nessisary to find out exactly how strong he is, given that we know how strong the Kaioken is.

 

[FTW395]

How smart are Pokemon actually btw? Because we assume they'll use the moves that will suit them best in certain situations but are they actually shown to be somewhat smart in the canon?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Snip

Firstly, I'm quite aware on what Goku's profile says, because I'm the one that upgraded him.

Secondly, all those characters are known to be far higher, but are still considered to be within that general range and weaker than someone who scales t a greater feat. And pointing those out are viable, because it shows bias on this part making this acceptable.

 

[Noahkaismith]

How smart are Pokemon actually btw? Because we assume they'll use the moves that will suit them best in certain situations but are they actually shown to be somewhat smart in the canon?

They're shown to have varying levels of intelligence, but they all have fighting instinct and know what to use and when.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Then go upgrade the ones named cal.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

And kirby matters why?

Because I was not only showing another example of a character who would benefit if we treated all verses like we treat DB's power creep, but also showing an example of a character who isn't considered far higher because of vaporization.

 

[FTW395]

This is a versus thread, not a content revision. Saying Goku is way stronger than Piccolo during Raditz's battle is a legitemate argument.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

No that was me trying ta say stop bring litterally everything ever into this.

If ya wanna upgrade Kirby for stomping him, if the calculation was close enough then fine, agreed . But can ya go one debate without using another verse as an example .

 

[Theglassman12]

Goku should take this for the reasons stated above.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Then go upgrade the ones named cal.

I'll upgrade the characters named Cal ovo

In all seriousness, that'd be wrong. Which is my point. Goku's at least Piccolo's value, and at least 4x that with KKx4.

 

[Noahkaismith]

Yeah, OK. We've determined how strong Goku is.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

This is a versus thread, not a content revision. Saying Goku is way stronger than Piccolo during Raditz's battle is a legitemate argument.

Not to the point where saying it makes him shitstomp someone with a higher feat. If Rayquaza was on his level, or even 2x, that would be a legitimate argument. But because Rayquaza isn't, it's moot and wank.

 

[Theglassman12]

Goku: 7

Rayquaza: 2

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Yeah at least, because he is actually higher, how much? Unquantifiably higher . But that means he is unquantifiably higher than ratquaza at his best even just taking piccolox4 .

 

[Amexim]

Then you should make a CRT to get them to be where they should be, Cal. None of that negates Goku being known to be far stronger than Piccolo in the beginning of the story. In fact, this makes your case for their higher ratings stronger. Not only that, but the next higher feat is Dwarf Star level by Frieza, so it's not like Goku isn't far under Frieza anyway. I don't know the details of each person, nor am I saying that Goku isn't still in planet level range, he is. But I am saying that we're low-balling all of these characters in question, and that, assuming everything lines up, in matches that come down to AP, I would definitely support you and anyone in saying that we know that these characters are higher, but to an unknown degree, and if their AP is comparable at the low-ball, the opponent doesn't get an AP advantage. Like here.

 

[Amexim]

Notice that we're taking Piccolo's base stats and multiplying them by 4, as if Piccolo had the Kaioken. We know that Goku's base is stronger than Piccolo's base, so that boost, which makes him stronger than Piccolo's if we gave Goku the times 4 boost instead. The fact that this is a low-ball-- and that Dragon Dance has no statement going with the multiplier (if it does, then Rayquaza should have the AP advantage, based off of him having a concrete number, whereas Goku's wouldn't be)-- means Goku likely has better AP.

Don't go making another thread about how it's unfair that we use Dragon Ball's power creep. Instead, just try to make a CRT for each of those characters. Their low-balls have nothing to do with Dragon Ball. In fact, I'm so on your side, that I don't think you're explaining everything surrounding why they're not labeled as "at least" with "higher'. Because, if each of those scenarios are exactly the same as Goku's-- which, if they're not, it's a false equivalency, and an irrelevant one at that-- then they should have "at least" and "higher", on their profiles.

The only acceptable explaination they can have, when I take into account what you say, is that they don't have enough information to scale the characters in question to the higher feats or that they're no where near the higher feats in question. The former is still Shakey and could earn you a "likely" or a "possibly" somewhere in there. The latter means you don't understand the issue, which I doubt you don't, because you're a smart guy.

In either case, I agree, and likely many other people do as well, that those characters you listed deserve better. But just because they're low-balled or downplayed to an erroneous extent doesn't mean that you should do the same for Goku. If you want, you can PM me and we can come up with an argument or 3 before you make a CRT, because, I support your position-- at least from what I understand.

TLR; those guys being whatever they are now is irrelevant.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

One Dragon Dance is treated the same as basic KK.

 

[Amexim]

Statement for it?

 

[Kaltias]

Basic KK = significant non-quantifiable AP boost

Dragon Dance = significant non-quantifiable AP boost

 

[Assaltwaffle]

And Dragon Dance doesn't have any downside. Also DD only affects physical attacks, so beams and ranged moves will not be buffed.

 

[Kepekley23]

Basic Kaioken is stated by the narrator to be double the fighter's power. Plotholes are still parts of the story.