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No holding back, both bloodlusted. Who wins!?
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Son Goku(SSGSS) vs Superboy-Prime
- Thread starter AnimeFanboy2916
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- son goku superboy-prime
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Goku is 3-B Superboy is 3-A with a massive speed advantage so yeah that's a stomp.
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But isn't Goku only a 3-B in SSG? Shouldn't that mean that SSGSS is much stronger?
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But it's still 3-BAnimeFanboy2916 said:
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What if I changed it to Beerus?
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Still a stomp, Too much speed in Superboy.AnimeFanboy2916 said:
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Doesn't Beerus have the hax to balance it out? He does have the energy nullification.
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Did Goku get his speed upgrade from the Universe size change?
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Wait, SSG Goku has pushing the boundaries of Multi-Galaxy, and now we have confirmation that SSGSS is indeed > SSG, wouldn't that make Goku finally 3-A?
About the speed thing, it was scaled from Beerus, which was scaled from Whis, and even with a MASSIVE lowball, it was around 100's of Billions x FTL, and it was also travel speed, and in Dragon Ball (at least for the moment) combat speed > travel speed, so I dunno, but everyobody say Superboy-Prime is faster, I don't know the exact numbers of x FTL, but it seems that Superboy-Prime is indeed faster (or is he?).
About the speed thing, it was scaled from Beerus, which was scaled from Whis, and even with a MASSIVE lowball, it was around 100's of Billions x FTL, and it was also travel speed, and in Dragon Ball (at least for the moment) combat speed > travel speed, so I dunno, but everyobody say Superboy-Prime is faster, I don't know the exact numbers of x FTL, but it seems that Superboy-Prime is indeed faster (or is he?).
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check gokus page for his speed nowAlexcar3000 said:
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I know, that's why I said "for the moment" because there's no confirmation on their speed being slower than their travel speed because some weird things happened in Super (like freakin Jaco being able to see Goku Vs. Freezer's fight that other z fighters can't), while their current AP have been confirmed by feats and multiple statements like Whis and the Narrator, so their speed could change later (like the fight Beerus and Champa fight, we could see that in the Super anime).SomebodyStupid said:
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Then he stomps, lol.Natse said:
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Prime is so much faster this isn't even fair. He's an idiot, but bloodlusted Prime is dangerous indeed.
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This is a mismatch, Prime is one of the fastest non abstract character in fiction :/
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Take note that I stated Prime's speed when he was just his regular self. He Countdown self when he was amped up is much much stronger and possibly much much faster. Prime's power is basically like Pre-Crisis Superman without the extra powers.
Countdown Superboy-Prime stomps all of Dragon Ball, including Beerus and Whis.
Countdown Superboy-Prime stomps all of Dragon Ball, including Beerus and Whis.
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superboy stomp with ease
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superman is faster, so if he wins, its due to speed
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All he did to stop them from blitzing was spin around in a circle, and the other heroes still kept up with him just fine. While this is one of Primes most wanked feats we also don't have a clear indication of how powerful the recieving speedblitz was or how fast all three came at him. His combat speed is alot more managable than you'd think, epspecially for Goku.Alexcar3000 said:
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Being fast enough to stop three Flashes is still being fast enough to stop three Flashes. That, and Prime was being ganged up on by everyone and still winning when he wasn't busy being a giant baby. Goku's a great martial artist, but it's really not like he has any combat feats on that level.
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We still don't know how fast any of them were moving. Could have been Mach speeds for all we know since most Flashes did restrict themselves to that level during a majority of encounters (this wasn't the case all the time). So while we can say he was fast enough to stop 3 Flashes the "wow" factor for your feat is trying to get the other person to automatically assume all 3 were outrunning death. imo the best you could compromise on is lightspeed.Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
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Considering the fact the entire Speed Force was needed to beat Prime back to the main DCU, I'm seriously doubting it was only Lightspeed. Prime wasn't considered some dollar store villain of the week during these enconters. He was a serious threat.Shock97 said:
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That came later. For that specific example, all you can reasonably prove without going into speculation would be lightspeed. Given the sheer frequency of how much speed blitzes vary even in battles against the worst of the worst concretely proving anything higher would be a stretch. And I'm well aware of how powerful Prime was, and I'm equally aware of his wank as well lol.Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
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Yes, it came later, but I really don't see how that matters. You're basically just saying someone who was shown to be MFTL+ is only fighting several other MFTL+ characters at lightspeed because we don't know exactly how fast any of them were going, which is a pretty massive lowball. Also, yeah, Prime gets wanked, but I fail to see how pointing out how he has displayed MFTL+ speed is wank and how assuming the guys attempting to blitz him were only Hypersonic+ to lightspeed isn't downplay.Shock97 said:
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So in the abstence of concrete evidence which is replaced by speculation, my response of going with a safe bet is labled "lowball"? Couldn't I say your trying to highball all 3 by assuming they both were MFTL and Outrunning Death? As I said speedblitzes vary all the time in comics, the problem with Flash in the battle forums is everyone assumes in every panel, no matter who he's fighting, or what the scenario he's outrunning death and nothing concrete can back it up. If you could prove in that specific example all 3 were running at MFTL speeds without a shadow of a doubt I'd back off, but all this specific example proves is he can spin around real fast and the flashs can run real fast......Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
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The concrete evidence is that all characters fighting have demonstrated MFTL+ speed. This isn't Flash fighting some random goon and me assuming he's running MFTL+ speeds to do so. This is several Flashes attempting to blitz a serious threat who has also shown MFTL+ speed. I'm not going to assume something absurd like Goku and Beerus were fighting at massively hypersonic speeds because we don't know how fast they actually fought.Shock97 said:
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You can't prove for that specific example that all three were fighting at speeds past lightspeed, which is the point I'm getting at. The fact that all characters have demonstrated MFTL+ speeds doesn't apply for every example we see them fighting in, especially when all characters fighting have a history of fighting at many different levels of speed heck using your logic Prime devasted the Titans and Superboy using MFTL+ speeds which is preposterous for both examples. Assuming all were moving at MFTL+ speeds through the duration of the fight no one else should be of any use as they simply can't percieve them. Even during your Goku vs Beerus example they both started off slow then got faster and faster in incraments, which is the same thing that happened when the Flashs sent Prime to the speedforce. Again if you could prove with a case that's not "well we have no indication of speed but I'm gonna guess it was the highest level possible cause Flash!!!" then I'd back off, but I've made my stance clear. I just need concrete evidence of MFTL speed for that example since right now its running off of hype.Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
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I still have no idea how several characters consistently shown to be MFTL+ attacking someone else MFTL+ is running off hype. This is assuming the most logical speed without downplaying. Why would we randomly assume hypersonic? Or lightspeed? Or anything less than the consistently shown speed for the characters.
Also, you didn't give a reason we shouldn't assume all fights are like this. Should we assume Goku and Beerus fought at hypersonic speeds and then raised to massively hypersonic since there's nothing to prove they were fighting beyond that?
Also, you didn't give a reason we shouldn't assume all fights are like this. Should we assume Goku and Beerus fought at hypersonic speeds and then raised to massively hypersonic since there's nothing to prove they were fighting beyond that?
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Because you still can't prove with evidence that's not speculation for this specific example that any were moving at MFTL+ speeds. Hence why I went with the safe bet of lightspeed, which is something you can prove without a shadow of a doubt. You want to apply your logic to this example we must apply it to all examples, in which case Flash is always moving at MFTL+ speeds even when he himself won't run anywhere near that level for most encounters, even against Teambusters. We can't even begin to talk about consistency since most Flash speed feats have no context for speed behind them at all, ironically just like this example.Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
And you haven't given a reason why we should assume all fights are like this. Should we assume every character in fiction is fighting at their max speed in all cases? And if your arguing yes, then Flash is always outrunning death in every instance of him using his super speed. And it's not just him that means Invincible is always blitzing every character at lightspeed, even when he himself has admitted he rarely uses that level of speed against opponents. You see how foolish that sounds?
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No, but I can use logic to strengthen the point. Flash has consistently been shown to be capable of fighting and moving at MFTL+. He is attempting to blitz an opponent who has been shown to be a major threat and also MFTL+. Therefore, he was likely attacking him at MFTL+ or close to it.
On the other hand, your logic for Flash moving at hypersonic to lightspeed is "we don't know exactly how fast he was moving". I don't see how that's the more logical choice.
Once again, I never said we should assume all fights are like this. You are twisting my words. Even in a previous comment, I said I'm more inclined to believe Flash is using a higher speed due to fighting a legitimate threat of a similar level of speed as opposed to a random mook or low level villain. Then, using your own logic, I said we could also assume Beerus and Goku to be hypersonic or massively hypersonic. You have not countered this, or even addressed it, which makes me believe you realize this is a flawed assumption, in the first place.
On the other hand, your logic for Flash moving at hypersonic to lightspeed is "we don't know exactly how fast he was moving". I don't see how that's the more logical choice.
Once again, I never said we should assume all fights are like this. You are twisting my words. Even in a previous comment, I said I'm more inclined to believe Flash is using a higher speed due to fighting a legitimate threat of a similar level of speed as opposed to a random mook or low level villain. Then, using your own logic, I said we could also assume Beerus and Goku to be hypersonic or massively hypersonic. You have not countered this, or even addressed it, which makes me believe you realize this is a flawed assumption, in the first place.
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define "major threat"? You keep throwing that around, but you must realize how loose a term that is. Parasite has been called a "major threat" before and never has Flash attacked him with MFTL speeds, unless were assuming he is to my knowledge. I could show you examples of Parasite and other "major threats" wrecking entire teams and requiring a miracle effort to bring down but that would be overkill. Using logic you'd realize your trying to assign MFTL+ speed to an instance in which no speed reference other than "tornado spin" and "rapid moving" arms are given, yet your trying to assign MFTL+ to this example and automatically to 100's of others just like it. I don't see how this is logical at all, its the equivalent of stating Beerus punched Goku with a Planet Level strike because he destroyed a planet in the past with a physical strike. The only thing you've strengthed is that you cannot prove to an audience seeking more than just "wow factor" that Flash was moving at MFTL+ speeds in this example, without relying on well this happened in the past so evidently its happening now. Not very logical.Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
And you twisted mine. You proposed to me why we shouldn't assume all fights are like this and I asked you the opposite, which you responded with an accusation which leads me to believe you know you can't prove the reverse of the question when it's aimed at you. Even just now you admitted your more inclined to believe Flash is using a higher speed due to fighting a "legitimate threat" a classification of which Parasite, Metallo, Amazo, Solomon Grundy and 100's of others also fall into but you yourself cant concretely prove what this level of speed must be for a speed example that has no standout characteristics that would prove MFTL+, so if you were involved with a scientific study in the abstence of concrete evidence you would go with the safe bet until you can concretely prove anything higher. Which you still haven't done for said specific example other than trying to apply previous context that doesn't mesh with the current example.
As for the Goku vs Beerus thing that's not my concern right now and is another debate entirely, so I'm simply dismissing it for now so we don't get off track.
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I expect you to know what I mean by that, and not assume I'm equating Prime to someone like Parasite. Prime is a dangerous murderer who caused a crisis spanning multiple universes and requiring multiple versions of Superman and Flash to combat. That should qualify as a "major threat". As I've said before, there is no reason to assume this was not a MFTL+ exchange. Flash has been shown to be MFTL+ repeatedly. Prime moved planets across the universe at MFTL+ speeds. He raced back to the main DCU at MFTL+ speeds. Wally admitted Prime was faster than him. You keep mentioning "wow factor", but you really don't seem to understand it. Seeing repeated instances of said speeds in the same storyline and storylines around said time and using them to gauge the speed of Prime and the Flashes is not "wow factor".
Also, why on earth would we assume Beerus' physical strikes (assuming they actually hurt Goku) would not be equal to or greater than Goku's durability? This is what attack potency is all about.
Once again, I have given you many, many reasons as to why I believe this exchange was taking place at high speeds and not something absurdly low. Your only rebuttal has been "we don't know how fast they were moving". This is not a valid rebuttal for reasons I have already stated in the first paragraph.
The Goku and Beerus thing is very much your concern, as it is an example created using the logic you yourself proposed. If you either disagree with it or cannot justify it, you must explain why it does not apply to that case and magically does to this one. That is very important to said topic.
Also, why on earth would we assume Beerus' physical strikes (assuming they actually hurt Goku) would not be equal to or greater than Goku's durability? This is what attack potency is all about.
Once again, I have given you many, many reasons as to why I believe this exchange was taking place at high speeds and not something absurdly low. Your only rebuttal has been "we don't know how fast they were moving". This is not a valid rebuttal for reasons I have already stated in the first paragraph.
The Goku and Beerus thing is very much your concern, as it is an example created using the logic you yourself proposed. If you either disagree with it or cannot justify it, you must explain why it does not apply to that case and magically does to this one. That is very important to said topic.
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All that is fine and dandy what you still don't understand or at this point simply refuse to understand is none of that proves for that specific example how fast any of them were moving. You are guessing and assuming for an example that has no standout characteristics that proves MFTL+. Your argument in a nutshell is "well this happened before in the past so evidently it's happening now" as I said above. You can prove many ways Prime is MFTL and so are the Flashes using examples that actually prove MFTL speeds. If you paid closer attention to your examples you'd realize all of your aformentioned examples will prove MFTL+ speed, but the cyclone example isn't one of them, and my rebuttal of "we don't know how fast they were moving" is entirely valid. And you wanna know why? Because we don't, and all you can do is entertain me with what you think is going on by applying examples that don't mesh with the current example were discussing. Notice how you keep falling back to previous examples for Flashs speed, all your doing is further proving my point that you can't make that example stand on it's own without applying context from previous situations that was vastly different as I addressed in my previous reply. You want me to assume Flash is moving at MFTL speeds even when nothing in the example points to that and all Flashs have a history of altering their speeds. An assumption no matter how strong you think it is is still an assumption I'm afraid, and one I can no longer entertain.Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
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You like realize that under that logic, most characters would have unknown stats right?Shock97 said:
Just sayian
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Then why are you here?!?Shock97 said:
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Are you kidding me?
All I've been trying to prove is that Prime and the Flashes are MFTL+, and that because of that, it is unlikely this example is only hypersonic to lightspeed. It is not certain, because as you said, we have no way to know for sure. However, as I have pointed out, all characters involved have MFTL+ feats, which makes it a definite possibility for the encounter to be MFTL+. Your only argument has been "we don't know how fast they were moving", after which you yourself proceeded to make assumptions about the speed based on nothing, which is quite a good bit less than what I presented to you.
Is it possible this encounter wasn't MFTL+? Yes.
Is it possible this encounter was MFTL+? Yes, as this isn't exactly a foreign speed to any character involved.
I am stating what I believe to be more likely, as well as providing evidence for why I think so. That is not the same as a baseless assumption.
If you would like to go further into detail about why you believe the speeds hypersonic and lightspeed apply better than MFTL+, then by all means present them. However, please do not go about acting all high and mighty as if I am only throwing around baseless assumptions, when this whole time, it has been you who has built an argument on top of nothing.
All I've been trying to prove is that Prime and the Flashes are MFTL+, and that because of that, it is unlikely this example is only hypersonic to lightspeed. It is not certain, because as you said, we have no way to know for sure. However, as I have pointed out, all characters involved have MFTL+ feats, which makes it a definite possibility for the encounter to be MFTL+. Your only argument has been "we don't know how fast they were moving", after which you yourself proceeded to make assumptions about the speed based on nothing, which is quite a good bit less than what I presented to you.
Is it possible this encounter wasn't MFTL+? Yes.
Is it possible this encounter was MFTL+? Yes, as this isn't exactly a foreign speed to any character involved.
I am stating what I believe to be more likely, as well as providing evidence for why I think so. That is not the same as a baseless assumption.
If you would like to go further into detail about why you believe the speeds hypersonic and lightspeed apply better than MFTL+, then by all means present them. However, please do not go about acting all high and mighty as if I am only throwing around baseless assumptions, when this whole time, it has been you who has built an argument on top of nothing.
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