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Son Goku (4) vs Sister Friede (1)

Doesn't Friede have a fairly massive AP advantage? She backscales from High 4-C, whereas Goku upscales from Low 4-C. She also has resurrection, making her even harder to put down for Goku.
 
The Divine Phoenix said:
Doesn't Friede have a fairly massive AP advantage? She backscales from High 4-C, whereas Goku upscales from Low 4-C. She also has resurrection, making her even harder to put down for Goku.
Click to expand...
No...?

The AP gap within 4-C isn't actually that large. At least in comparison to other tiers. Also small problem with this thread in general, Full Power SSJ Goku is High 4-C. There's no Full Power Android Saga Goku; it wasn't a thing until well after Cell appeared. Unless you mean the arc as awhole, in which case you'd have to use regular SSJ Goku for *just* 4-C Goku.

Friede's AP would look something like...

Ashen One (High 4-C) > Black Flame Friede (4-C) > Sister Friede > Yuria

Meanwhile, Ignoring High 4-C FP SSJ Goku apparently, Dragon Ball scaling chain would be something like...

Perfect Cell >= FP SSJ Goku (Android Saga) > Super Vegeta > Semi-Perfect Cell > Android 16 > Imperfect Cell (Post-Mass Absorption) > Piccolo (Kami Fusion) >= Android 17 > Imperfect Cell > SSJ Goku (Early Android Saga) > SSJ Trunks (Android Saga) > Mecha Freeza > 100% Freeza > 50% Freeza >= Kaiokenx20 Goku (Namek Saga) > Kaiokenx10 Goku (Namek Saga) > Full Power Goku (Namek Saga) > Vegeta (Post-Zenkais) > 3rd form Freeza > Fused Piccolo > 2nd form Freeza > 100% 1st form Freeza > High-End Dwarf Star Level (1.7 Tenatons)

I'm fairly certain I'm forgetting some characters but needless to say, Dragon Ball has a massively larger scaling chain. Also I'd like to note that Imperfect Cell at his weakest (Sans Cocoon form) is rated at flat 4-C in this chain for being so massively above everyone else and more notably, 100% Freeza.
 
So I did make a mistake and used the wrong Goku, but I should mention that there's no seperation between Cell and Android saga on his profile. Anyway it's just SSJ Goku.
 
Yeah the "Sagas" are sort of weird. We could honestly split the profiles of Dragon Ball characters into many times more forms with how much power fluctuates in the show.
 
Wasn't Friede agreed to be at the highest possible level of 4-C or something like that? A scaling chain is nice and all, despite only part of it being 4-C, but where does this put Goku AP wise?
 
Not really? just assumed to be high into it since she downscales from High 4-C

AP is relatively even for all intents and purposes here, so let's move past that.

Skill wise, both are renowned warriors, though Friede holds the slight advantage of having two weapons with greater range. Goku does have energy blasts but not so much that he abuses them solely. For all intents and purposes I will consider them roughly equal in this department, too.

This leaves their best abilities as Friede's big AoE flames, invisibility, and resurrecting, Goku's is increasing his strength through various means (though it seems that Reactive Power Level isn't something he has real control over) and pressure points, not sure on the exact mechanical use of that

So, my end question is, how does his pressure point stuff work?
 
Has he used it at all in like

Relevant bits where he was fighting someone vaguely on par with his 4-C key
 
Okay has he used it at all recently

On people he actually seems to struggle against
 
Mr. Bambu said:
Okay has he used it at all recently
On people he actually seems to struggle against
Click to expand...
See problem with that is, everyone he "struggles" against grossly outclasses him so that Goku would flat out never get the chance to do so.

Let's go over DBS Villains shall we?

Beerus - Yeah no. Just... no.

Hit - He can freeze time and constantly adapted to be absolutely superior to Goku. There was never an instance in time where Goku could've ever done Pressure Points as Hit pretty much always held the advantage. Plus. Time Skip.

Goku Black - Goku Black pretty much held the advantage throughout the entire battle, again, and the one time Goku held an advantage was when he was enraged but even that was short-lived. Zamasu was immortal, pressure points would've done nothing.

Jiren - Yeah no, Jiren was always superior to Goku and even in Ultra Instinct. Goku as MUI was only "superior" to Limit Breaker Jiren, not "Outclasses". There was never an opportunity for Goku to use Pressure points since if he got too close, Jiren could always still Glare (which would force Goku to block or dodge back).
 
ApiesDeathbyLazors said:
Well, since Maria managed to incon Anime Goku let's see what the best Soulsborne Bossfight can do.

SSJ Android Saga Goku (4-C) and Speed Equalized. Fight takes place in the painted world right outside the chruch with Goku and Friede standing 10 meters apart. Ariandel doesn't exsist for this fight. SBA for anything else.

Son Goku

Sister Friede
Click to expand...
Goku can't win. His opponent is just as strong and has perk of being undead. Unless this immortality doesn't make her regenerate, that's the only way I can see Goku winning.
 
Sderrick95 said:
ApiesDeathbyLazors said:
Well, since Maria managed to incon Anime Goku let's see what the best Soulsborne Bossfight can do.

SSJ Android Saga Goku (4-C) and Speed Equalized. Fight takes place in the painted world right outside the chruch with Goku and Friede standing 10 meters apart. Ariandel doesn't exsist for this fight. SBA for anything else.

Son Goku

Sister Friede
Click to expand...
Goku can't win. His opponent is just as strong and has perk of being undead. Unless this immortality doesn't make her regenerate, that's the only way I can see Goku winning.
Click to expand...
She doesn't have Type 3 immortality or Regenerationn.
 
So nothing saying he'd abuse it out the gate

I guess I vote Friede via resurrection, huge AoE and invisibility.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
So nothing saying he'd abuse it out the gate
I guess I vote Friede via resurrection, huge AoE and invisibility.
Click to expand...
How does the resurrection work?

From what I reading, she resurrects into her second key, and then loses her resurrection.
 
Falls once, gets back up, falls again, gets back up.

Having three phases is a pretty big advantage against somebody with one.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
Falls once, gets back up, falls again, gets back up.
Having three phases is a pretty big advantage against somebody with one.
Click to expand...
Although I feel like her AoE attacks can be negated with his own attacks and her invisibility can be negated by his senses.

Resurrecting twice - becoming stronger each time (I think), means that she will very like kill Goku as he should have grown weaker during the fight.

I guess I can see her winning by out-lasting him.


Then Goku teleports back from the Other World and beats her then, huh take that!
 
Goku can't win. His opponent is just as strong and has perk of being undead. Unless this immortality doesn't make her regenerate, that's the only way I can see Goku winning.

She doesn't have Type 3 immortality or Regenerationn.

Well, Goku has a better chance then. Her biggest adavantages is magic manipulation. Ice is good but Goku has the Kamehameha to stalemate any sort of ice beam attacks she probably has. Goku has Solar Flare, Destructo Disc, and Instant Transmission, not to mention his general usage of Ki.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
Falls once, gets back up, falls again, gets back up.

Having three phases is a pretty big advantage against somebody with one.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure Friede only resurrects on her own once. Phase two was because of Ariandel using the flame.
 
ApiesDeathbyLazors said:
Mr. Bambu said:
Falls once, gets back up, falls again, gets back up.

Having three phases is a pretty big advantage against somebody with one.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure Friede only resurrects on her own once. Phase two was because of Ariandel using the flame.
Click to expand...
Wait, she comes back only once?
 
She's noted to only be able to revive once. It's like... in her profile.

AoE advantage has NEVER been useful against Dragon Ball characters since they can just get the hell out of dodge; especially Goku who can just teleport the hell out of there.

Her Immortality doesn't make her anymore resilient than any other person besides maybe some forms of biological manipulations, dis-arming or something I guess.

Regenerationn is... she doesn't have any.

As for generally really effective abilities, Goku isn't without them. More specifically,

Destructo Disc is generally agreed upon to work on opponents many times stronger than the user (Krillin and Freeza is a good one. No Cell doesn't count, that's filler).

Instant Transmission is... instant teleportation. Not quite a hax but basically nullifies any AoE advantage by just... not being in the AoE.

I don't see how Ice Manipulation will keep Goku still for any amount of time that's significant enough to help her win?

She freezes his leg to the ground, he powers up and the ice shatters

She entraps him into a big iceblock, Goku teleports out or again just shatters the ice

It wouldn't even help her get a drop on Goku since he uses his other senses other than sight (I.E. Kid Goku dodging lightning with his eyes closed).
 
Ice damage in DS3 is treated as a status ailment, frosting over the aflicted's body and preventing/slowing stamina regen. No idea how exactly we treat that here, but large ice blocks aren't really Friede's thing. Exploding ice shards are however.
 
Wait where is it said Friede's first revive is due to Ariandel? It's been a year since I played but I don't remember that.

As for the immortality thing. I hadn't thought of it but has Goku literally ever pressure pointed a corpse? Since being undead sorta negs the need for nerves to function and stuff.

My vote for Friede stands, I don't see advantages on Goku's side aside from general variety of moves and teleportation. A resurrection/invisibility/etc combo strikes me as more useful and while I've heard the "Goku's senses are insane!" thing before, I've also heard it debunked.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
My vote for Friede stands, I don't see advantages on Goku's side aside from general variety of moves and teleportation. A resurrection/invisibility/etc combo strikes me as more useful and while I've heard the "Goku's senses are insane!" thing before, I've also heard it debunked.
Click to expand...
How do you debunk sensing? Goku can sense energy across different realms - he can even sense the emotions in one's aura to know when they will strike. With his sensing, he should be able to sense Friede's location even when invisible - and from the video of the fight, it looks like she phases back when she attacks anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

The only thing that I would say Friede has in her favor is the being resurrected stronger part - while it is only one time, having to fight an opponent again, who is even stronger, is quite the hassle.


Although Goku has teleportation and I'd probably argue the better fighting skills due to martial arts.


Hmmm...this seems hard.

I'd probably give it to Goku like 5.5/10 times, high diff - really even match up.
 
...

Person 1: "Goku has VAST senses! He would easily sense the Flash and beat him. Goku's senses are BEYOND those of the Flash."

Person 2: "That is too vague, Goku has trouble sensing someone with normal human ki, even if we assume the Flash has ki (which is not necessarily true), then since he uses the Speedforce for his powers and not ki, his ki would not be any greater than that of a normal human. Goku cannot sense beings too far away in space if he does not recognize their ki, and even if he does he still cannot sense them if they are too far away (he had to get King Kai's help to locate the new planet Namek, even though he knew what a Namekian ki signature felt like). Furthermore, he often loses track of his opponents when they move around him, and these opponents usually have ki's as large or larger than his. There's no way he'd sense the Flash, who only has normal human - equivalent ki, and is moving way faster than any DBZ character, and even if he did, he wouldn't be able to react in time to stop him."

Person 1: "You're chatting garbage! Goku has VAST senses! He can sense people light - years and dimensions away! He can easily sense the slow - ass Flash right in front of him!"

Person 2: "I already explained this to you, he has trouble sensing people even with strong, familiar ki's if they are too far away, and the dimension thing isn't really quantifiable, especially considering it was harder for him to sense the Nameks in his own dimension than it was to sense King Kai in the afterlife. Furthermore, he loses track of his enemies when they are moving fast around him, and they have very large ki's. He would never sense someone moving at FTL speed with only average human ki."

etc etc, this is our bit for Argumentum ad nauseum on the Fallacy page, the second I heard "sensing people across dimensions" I remembered where I had read it lol.
 
ApiesDeathbyLazors said:
It's obviously because of Ariandel. Watch the fight. She only revives after Ariandel slams the floor and ignites the flame.
Click to expand...
Also yeah, I guess you're right. I'd be inclined to disagree were it not for the flames lapping her body.

In that case, Ariandel should certainly receive Ressurectio on his page, no?
 
Hmm, never really heard those arguments, but okay.

Yeah, Goku has a hard time finding energies in space or in a different realm without concentrating for a few moments. But that's for like, really weak beings, like random aliens in space - Namekians for example.

But if the energy is large enough, he would be able to sense it no problem. Even though different realms. He senses King Kai's energy and teleports to him with any issues - and King Kai is in Other World.

Although, that doesn't really apply to this battle.
 
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