Son Gohan minor revision

[XVulkano]

It's stated in the Gohan page that Gohan "Clashed with SSB Goku and forced him to use Kaioke to defeat him. Was stated by the narrator to have power that rivaled Goku's)" and at durability "Universe level (Goku needed to use Kaio-ken to take him out)". There's a big difference between "used Kaio-ken to defeat him" and "was forced to use Kaio-ken to defeat him". Goku SSJBKKx20 would not be able to one shot regular SSJB Vegeta with one punch, the fight between Goku and Vegeta vs Jiren proves this, Gohan shouldn't credited this much after losing to one punch.

After fighting Toppo, Goku goes back to earth and tells Vegeta that he's not sure if he could beat Toppo even using his Blue power. It was SSJB Goku ?=? Toppo at the time, if Gohan was so powerful at the point of forcing Goku to his Blue Kaio-ken x20 (Kuririn knew about x20 Kaio-ken before the ToP, and Gohan asked for Goku's full power so that probably was indeed Kaio-ken x20) why would Toppo simply tank Gohan's full power Kamehameha like it was nothing? Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU22XtjK3eo Toppo literally roasts Gohan's power. And we're talking about a distracted Toppo, he didn't even guard to tank Gohan's Kamehameha.

Not only that, DBS has shown how easy is for Goku to multiply his power by a hundred: https://i.imgur.com/kjGmxIN.jpg

As you can see against Arale, SSJB Goku had an initial beam clash which sort of ended in a draw. Then Goku could seemingly produce a Kamehameha that would be 100x stronger, meaning that in the initial clash he was hiding a huge amount of power. Given also his mini beam struggle with Kuririn and Bergamo, I would say that it is safe to say that SSJB Goku apparently holds back to around his opponent level, whatever that is or probably a little bit higher. So it is really inconclusive at what level these guys really are because Goku just drops his power to their level.

"Was stated by the narrator to have power that rivaled Goku's)"

Before the official ToP, when Goku fought Bergamo, the Universe 9 Kaiohshin said that Goku had a "power that rivals the gods", he only says that when Goku uses his Super Saiyan Blue, but Goku is already stronger than any Kaiohshin at his base form so he's not talking about gods such as Kaiohshins or Kaiohs. So that statement puts Goku on the same level of Gods of Destruction? No, makes him able to actually rival a God of Destruction besides being weaker, the same goes for Gohan against Goku. Trunks also pointed that out back in the Future Trunks arc.

 

[Ronnijuro]

Against Arale is filler, that's not canon. And even if it was canon, it's a gag episode.

Anyway, Gohan obviously is not Blue lvl. He is a bit weaker, his fight against the Bills clone is the evidence.

The ones who can edit should remove those reasons, I agree.

 

[XVulkano]

Against Arale is filler, that's not canon. And even if it was canon, it's a gag episode.
Anyway, Gohan obviously is not Blue lvl. He is a bit weaker, his fight against the Bills clone is the evidence.

The ones who can edit should remove those reasons, I agree.

There is no filler in DBS, everything is canon.

 

[Mickey1940]

Against Arale is filler, that's not canon. And even if it was canon, it's a gag episode.
Anyway, Gohan obviously is not Blue lvl. He is a bit weaker, his fight against the Bills clone is the evidence.

The ones who can edit should remove those reasons, I agree.

There is no filler in DBS, everything is canon.

wait what really?

 

[XVulkano]

Against Arale is filler, that's not canon. And even if it was canon, it's a gag episode.
Anyway, Gohan obviously is not Blue lvl. He is a bit weaker, his fight against the Bills clone is the evidence.

The ones who can edit should remove those reasons, I agree.

There is no filler in DBS, everything is canon.

wait what really?

Yep lol

DBZ only had fillers/non canon scenes because the manga was the original source at the time. Now that the anime and manga are both the original sources, neither of them has fillers. An easy way to explain how Toriyama's script is modified by Toei and Toyotaro:

As long as Toyotaro and the anime staff follow point A to point B to point C it doesn't really matter what the hell they do in-between those points as long as it hits the mark of Toriyama's outline. Zamasu and Black, for example. Fused Zamasu was damaged by Goku, Vegetto and sliced by Trunks in the anime with the use of the Genki-Dama, then he tried to become one with the universe, this is the "in-between" point. The point that they can't change is: Vegetto is not going to last one hour and Zen'oh is going to defeat Zamasu.

 

[Mickey1940]

woow

that's quite the technicality

i mean, in every other series the manga is canon, but since in DBZ the manga and anime aren't alike, so I guess both are technically canon

 

[Ronnijuro]

Against Arale is filler, that's not canon. And even if it was canon, it's a gag episode.
Anyway, Gohan obviously is not Blue lvl. He is a bit weaker, his fight against the Bills clone is the evidence.

The ones who can edit should remove those reasons, I agree.

There is no filler in DBS, everything is canon.

Yeah, the baseball episode is canon sure...

Ofc there are fillers. That are one of them.

 

[XVulkano]

Against Arale is filler, that's not canon. And even if it was canon, it's a gag episode.
Anyway, Gohan obviously is not Blue lvl. He is a bit weaker, his fight against the Bills clone is the evidence.

The ones who can edit should remove those reasons, I agree.

There is no filler in DBS, everything is canon.

Yeah, the baseball episode is canon sure...
Ofc there are fillers. That are one of them.

From the Copy Vegeta to the Baseball episode, everything is canon.

 

[Antvasima]

You can use the Dragon Ball verse page and the Knowledgeable Members List to find staff members to ask to comment here.

 

[AKM sama]

What are you proposing? Just to make it clear, Gohan's not SSBKKx20 level but he is without a doubt SSB level.

I believe you're suggesting a few tweaks in his justification?

 

[XVulkano]

What are you proposing? Just to make it clear, Gohan's not SSBKKx20 level but he is without a doubt SSB level.
I believe you're suggesting a few tweaks in his justification?

I'm proposing to change stuff like "Clashed with SSB Goku and force him to use Kaioken to defeat him" and "Goku needed to use Kaio-ken to take him out", that would be justification, I don't really know (new user here). We can all agree that SSB Goku did a lot better against Toppo when compared to Gohan. Gohan caught Toppo off guard with a full power Kamehameha and it did nothing, the same Toppo that also had trouble fighting SSB Vegeta (who is roughly equal to SSB Goku).

Toppo fought evenly both SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta, then he proceeds to literally roast Gohan's power level. I don't think Gohan is nowhere near SSB level.

What I said about SSBKKx20 is that Goku SSBKKx20 would not be able to one shot regular SSB Vegeta, because even Jiren had trouble doing so at some moments, Broly couldn't one shot Freeza too.Taking this into account, SSBKKx20 Goku would not be able to one shot Gohan.

You can compare Goku's first fight against Toppo (episode 82) and Gohan's fight, you can clearly see that Goku is doing far better than Gohan and 17.

 

[AKM sama]

Toppo wasn't really going all out in the fight against Goku and he is clearly above SSB level since Goku was about to use kaioken on him and even that might not have been enough.

Gohan has solid feats of being SSB level. He clashed with SSB Goku. He was portrayed as being comparable to Android 17 in the fight against Toppo. He defeated Koichiarator who was able to take on both SSB Goku and Vegeta. He also defeated Dyspo who was comparable to Golden Freeza and Hit.

 

[AKM sama]

Perhaps adding this to the justification can provide more clarification:

"Overpowered Koichiarator, who was able to take hits from SSB Goku and Vegeta, was able to hurt Dyspo who is comparable to Golden Frieza"

 

[XVulkano]

I'm not saying that he was going all out from the start, but he was way more serious compared to when he fought Gohan. What Goku says is that he's not sure if he could defeat Toppo using his Blue form, that's obviously because Toppo was hiding some of his power, but the same Toppo had trouble fighting Vegeta, proving that if he was indeed stronger than SSB, it wouldn't be by a large margin.

Clashing with SSB Goku is not a solid feat. Ribrianne was evenly matched against base Goku, then evenly matched against SS1 Vegeta, then Goku used SSB to kick her, and we know that Ribrianne is not that strong. Super Saiyan God Goku vs Dyspo also shows a bit of this "holding back" part. Goku apparently couldn't react to Dyspo and had to use SSB to keep the pace, but as we've seen later on, Final Form Freeza (who is at base Goku's level) simply overwhelms Dyspo. Dyspo couldn't even hurt Final Form Freeza. This also shows how easy is for Goku to multiply his power by a hundred: https://imgur.com/kjGmxIN

About Gohan being portrayed as comparable to 17 is not solid feat either (at least I don't think it is), the whole fight was about 17 distracting Toppo and Gohan trying to land a hit. IIRC neither of them went head-to-head against Toppo.

The Koichiarator was also about distracting the enemy so that Gohan could gather energy land a hit. Koichiarator fought Goku and Vegeta using a laser that came out of his eyes, while Gohan's Kamehameha actually reached Koichiarator's physical body thanks to the distraction made my Goku and Vegeta.

He only fought Dyspo when Dyspo was trapped inside a cage. Dyspo is only about speed and he lacks strength since he had trouble trying to harm Final Form Freeza, and even after his Super Light Speed Mode, Golden Freeza managed to come out unscathed after Dyspo's punch sequence.

 

[XVulkano]

I just wanted to add something about Koichiarator. IIRC Koichiarator was also punched and thrown away by base Goku and base Vegeta when he was catched by surprise. I think Goku also says that he recovered his stamina a bit (indicating that he wasn't at full power, but I don't know about Vegeta) but I don't remember much of that episode.

 

[AKM sama]

The Toppo excuse doesn't hold up. Sure Vegeta was comparable to Toppo but he was still unable to put him down. Vegeta also trained in RoSaT before entering the ToP while Goku didn't. My point still stands, Toppo can't be beaten by SSB level opponents and he is above SSB Goku from the Zen Exhibition Match.

Goku and Vegeta had to go SSB to fight Koichiarator. And not only was he able to cancel their combined energy attacks, he was also able to tank their punches proving that his durability is SSB level. And Gohan was able to overpower him.

Sorry, but the whole notion that Dyspo is all about speed and lacks strength is entirely false. He was able to hurt Hit pretty badly. He was also able to hurt and take hits from Golden Freeza. If he wasn't that powerful, he wouldn't have been able to harm these characters. Dyspo is consistently portrayed as being SSB level. And Freeza being able to hang with him in base is just PIS or Dyspo being weakened after getting beat by Hit.

Just because other characters have cases of PIS against SSB Goku doesn't mean Gohan has too. Gohan was quite clearly able to land blows and take hits from SSB Goku which led to Goku using kaioken. The narrator even confirmed that Gohan was around Goku's level. The term "rival" is quite subjective and depends on context. Bringing up Goku's case is irrelevant because the context was different there. Goku rivals GoDs in a sense that he is roughly in the vicinity of their level, his showing isn't supported by a feat and we know he is not quite at their immediate level. While in Gohan's case we have a clear cut feat and we know where he really stands. He is still very weak compared to Goku's full power (SSBKKx20) but rivals him in the sense that he has reached SSB level.

All the last 5 remaining characters, while not exactly equal, were portrayed to be roughly around the same level against Anilaza too. Not only Gohan has statements but he has clear feats of being SSB level. Associating his feats with other cases that are PIS/outliers to try to undermine his feats based on unfounded assumptions that oppose Occam's razor is association fallacy and circular reasoning.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that AKM seems to make sense. Does the profile page need better justifications/explanations?

 

[AKM sama]

Yes, his justification doesn't include his feats from the ToP.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Feel free to improve on the description then.

 

[XVulkano]

"The Toppo excuse doesn't hold up. Sure Vegeta was comparable to Toppo but he was still unable to put him down. Vegeta also trained in RoSaT before entering the ToP while Goku didn't. My point still stands, Toppo can't be beaten by SSB level opponents and he is above SSB Goku from the Zen Exhibition Match."

Being unable to put him down? Exactly what happens when you fight someone as strong as you. Vegeta did train, the main issue with these trainings is that we never know how powerful they get. Goku didn't know for sure if Toppo was stronger than him and when he mentions Toppo's power, he strictly talks about his Blue power, so it's not Toppo > SSB Goku, is Toppo ?=? SSB Goku at that point.

"Goku and Vegeta had to go SSB to fight Koichiarator. And not only was he able to cancel their combined energy attacks, he was also able to tank their punches proving that his durability is SSB level. And Gohan was able to overpower him."

The word had is what started this all, and it's funny because I gave you examples of Goku using his Blue form against lesser beings. Like I told you (and you can watch here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rxvMpgEyBo) Koichiarator was punched and pushed back by base Goku and base Vegeta when he had an open guard, proving that you don't need great power to do this to him. The whole point about the Goku and Vegeta bleam fight against Koichiarator was meant to gain time, so that Gohan would be able to land a hit while he had an open guard. Goku also states (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47zdF3cv5zY) "Sorry to barge in while you're fightin' so hard. Thanks to you, my stamina's recovered a bit." We're not even talking about Goku's full power at this scene. And remember: they wanted to gain time.

"Sorry, but the whole notion that Dyspo is all about speed and lacks strength is entirely false. He was able to hurt Hit pretty badly. He was also able to hurt and take hits from Golden Freeza. If he wasn't that powerful, he wouldn't have been able to harm these characters. Dyspo is consistently portrayed as being SSB level. And Freeza being able to hang with him in base is just PIS or Dyspo being weakened after getting beat by Hit."

It's not. It's true that Hit was apparently injured after receiving Dyspo's first punches when they first met, but after that? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WHPjTC0kmE 1:37 Hit literally took the longest punch sequence in the history of this whole franchise, and was basically unharmed in the aftermath. Happened again against Golden Freeza, Dyspo is taking the advantaged, hundreds of punches, and in the aftermath of it Freeza's not even injured https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wywDt-Sk4cU 2:12. Dyspo is consistently the greatest joke of this tournament. Dyspo being weaker would be a great argument, if this wasn't the Tournament of Power where people literally recover from all their injures in 1 minute,

Just because other characters have cases of PIS against SSB Goku doesn't mean Gohan has too. Gohan was quite clearly able to land blows and take hits from SSB Goku which led to Goku using kaioken. The narrator even confirmed that Gohan was around Goku's level. The term "rival" is quite subjective and depends on context. Bringing up Goku's case is irrelevant because the context was different there. Goku rivals GoDs in a sense that he is roughly in the vicinity of their level, his showing isn't supported by a feat and we know he is not quite at their immediate level. While in Gohan's case we have a clear cut feat and we know where he really stands. He is still very weak compared to Goku's full power (SSBKKx20) but rivals him in the sense that he has reached SSB level.

PIS or power control, I'm not here to say what is PIS or not, I'm talking about what happened in the anime. And again, Goku SSBKKx20 would not be able to one shot regular SSB Vegeta, neither would Toppo be able to tank a SSB level Kamehameha even if he's above that level. If even Jiren had to block SSBE Vegeta and SSBKKx20 Goku attacks, how would Toppo be able to receive a full power SSB Kamehameha without even guarding? A Kaiohshin also says the same rival thing when Goku turns Blue. Beerus also came to Earth seeking a rival and had fun fighting the FAR weaker rival. Gohan is also not supported FRA.

All the last 5 remaining characters, while not exactly equal, were portrayed to be roughly around the same level against Anilaza too. Not only Gohan has statements but he has clear feats of being SSB level. Associating his feats with other cases that are PIS/outliers to try to undermine his feats based on unfounded assumptions that oppose Occam's razor is association fallacy and circular reasoning.

There's not even a way to measure that. Base Goku, SS1 Vegeta, 18, far different power levels and still they're all managing to dodge Aniraza. Mystic Gohan, 17, 18, SSG Goku and SS1 Vegeta also being able to receive attacks from it with little to no damage. As I said, I'm not here trying to say what is PIS and what isn't, I'm based on what happened in the anime. My English is not advanced enough to understand the last line, but since you mentioned Occam's razor, i'd like to mention Tommaso d'Aquino, who once said "Gohan is weak bro".


Since this is not going anywhere, I'd just like to thank you for bringing some attention to this post. Bye focken bye.

 

[AKM sama]

"so it's not Toppo > SSB Goku"

Uhh this is argumentum ad nauseum. Goku not being able to KO Toppo with SSB kamehameha and having to resort to kaioken while Toppo powered up even more, and still not knowing if he could've beaten him, is more than sufficient proof that base Toppo > SSB Goku at that time.

"Koichiarator was punched and pushed back by base Goku and base Vegeta when he had an open guard"

Blatant PIS. I'm surprised you're insinuating that Ultimate Gohan who was having trouble with Koichiarator, is weaker than base Goku/Vegeta. And if Goku and Vegeta can take care of him in base, they didn't need to transform into SSB and get their attacks cancelled. Obvious PIS is obvious. Surviving a punch from three SSB level characters makes Koichiarator SSB level as well. And they were buying time for Gohan to charge up a kamehameha, but they still needed SSB for that. You can't always cry "they were holding back" without any valid context or proof to back it up.

"Dyspo is consistently the greatest joke of this tournament."

Well, you better get on the Dyspo and Koichiarator downgrade thread then. Using the amount of damage shown is really a very bad argument when you know DBS is inconsistent in that regard. Kale ragdolled SSJ2 Goku and Goku didn't have a single scratch. Jiren KOed Kale and she didn't have a single scratch. And I could go on but the precedent is set.

Dyspo was visibly able to hurt Hit. And if you saw Freeza's expression on receiving that punch in the face, you'd know that he got hurt too, even though his demeanor doesn't give that idea later on because that's Freeza. On top of it he was almost pushed out of the ring, instead of just standing there like a stonewall taking all the hits from a supposedly "weaker joke" character. If he only had speed without sufficient AP to back it up, he wouldn't be such a problem for these characters who could just stand there and take all the hits.

"Gohan is also not supported FRA"

That paragraph contains argument from belief fallacy. SSBKKx20 would one-shot SSB. Characters in Dragon Ball have been one-shotted by less than a x2 difference. Also, when Jiren got serious, he stonewalled all the combined attacks from SSBKKx20 Goku, SSBE Vegeta and Android 17, so your argument is wrong in itself. And like I said, "rival" is a subjective term. You're using proof by example fallacy instead of looking at direct feats.

"i'd like to mention Tommaso d'Aquino, who once said "Gohan is weak bro""

Yeah, real maturity right there. It's evident that you've already made a conclusion in your mind and all of your arguments were just from willful ignorance A.K.A. argument from incredulity fallacy.

I just repeated everything I already wrote in my previous post even though it cost me a lot of valuable time, just for your sake. But this is basically argumentum ad verbosium and argument from repitition at this point. I'm sorry I have to stop. I can't continue repeating myself.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM

We should provably close this thread then. Are you willing to improve a bit on the profile's statistics justifications?

 

[AKM sama]

Yes, I will do so.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you. I will close this thread then.