Something about RoR Gods' Invulnerability

[SamanPatou]

It's about time we talk about what could potentially be the biggest misunderstanding of the series.
All the gods are given Invulnerability because of their ability to not be harmed by human weapons, reason why the representatives of mankind bond with Valkyries in order to obtain divine weapons.
I must admit that I also used to remember such a thing, even before starting to deal with RoR here, but after a few discussions, the seed of doubt was planted and now I want to get to the end of the matter.

Going back to Chapter 3, we find the source of the notion. Now, I don't know whether this translation is official or accurate, and I don't have the raws at hand, but on a second look it appears clear that it's more a matter of the gods' weapons (and their bodies because narrative) simply being too much powerful for human weapons, rather than those being effectively invulnerable.
It has to be noted that we currently consider the Volund as a boost in physicals too (otherwise humans would just explode every time they are touched) and that in the same chapter Lu Bu states that divine weapons are indestructible.
However, so far they have not only been destroyed by other divine weapons, but we also have things such as Zeus stating that Thor could crush an unawakened Mjolnir with his bare hands (chapter 4)
I'm not going through the entire manga looking for other instances of divine weapons being broken by physical blows (or at least not today), but there could be more, I just can't think of any out of the blue.

Now, unless a different and more accurate translation pops out, we should either disregard any notion of invulnerability entirely and consider the matter a fact of pure AP and Durability, or at least switch Invulnerability to a possibly and apply it only to divine weapons, with them and gods themselves having invulnerability negation for their ability to damage and eventually destroy them.
Personally, I consider the former to be the less convoluted and more reasonable, but I could see arguments for the latter too.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Agreed. As for other situations that have Divine Weapons breaking, Lu Bu’s “indestructible” halberd, Kojiro’s Monohoshizao, Poseidon’s Trident, basically all of R4, Buddha’s Six Paths, Qin’s Divine Spaulers, Hades’ Bident+Poseidon’s Trident, and Tesla’s armor. Besides R2 and R5, at least one Divine Weapon was broken in each match.

 

[SamanPatou]

Which of these occurred due to physical strikes, rather than clashes with other weapons?
Zeus's statement blatantly proved true remains, but other instances would surely weigh in.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

A bunch of stuff Jack touched in R4 got punched by Herc at some point and shattered and Hajun breaking Buddha’s staff with his body control.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

1 - Always get Raw with Record of Ragnarok, especially if it's something like the first fights, which are translated by valhalla scans. They invent things, put things that don't exist and remove others.

2 - Disagreement with this by R4. Any ordinary weapon Jack used was utterly ineffective against Heracles. And during it, not only Heracles but the gods in the audience talked about how using human weapons was no use and so on. They were even surprised when Heracles had his arm ripped off, and wondered how a human weapon could harm a god.

And besides, we have Jack. Anything he touches he transforms into a divine weapon. Whether it's a stone or even blood, if it's a divine weapon, it can hurt a god. A human weapon, even the weakest ones, shouldn't do more damage than just blood? Of course, besides the other thing you said.

3 - I don't understand your argument of divine weapons and being indestructible, I don't see how it matters. First, this was only spoken about by Lubu, and I highly doubt he knew about the Volunds and how they work, Brunild never spoke about it. Also, as far as I remember all the divine weapons were destroyed by other divine weapons. And Thor is a divine being, beyond his strength.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Not particularly sure about that myself, was just providing more situations to Saman. As for the invulnerability, nothing says the Gods are invulnerable themselves, just that they can’t be defeated by humans with human weapons as they would break on contact against Divine Weapons.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Not particularly sure about that myself, was just providing more situations to Saman. As for the invulnerability, nothing says the Gods are invulnerable themselves, just that they can’t be defeated by humans with human weapons as they would break on contact against Divine Weapons.

Read round 4 again. Throughout the fight both Heracles and the gods in the audience talk about how the human weapons Jack uses will do nothing against Heracles, that they matter and so on. Of course, you could say "but Heracles is very durable", however, even a stone or blood can hurt a god if it is a divine weapon.

It is not simply a question of the weapon, its quality and power. Also because I think knives do more damage than blood. Of course, it increases the power of such a thing since the stone did more damage, but the divine weapons he makes are not his volund, they are just divine weapons.

But of course, you can understand it as a durability thing. So much so because only "weak" weapons are used against Heracles.

EDIT :Besides having the whole Qin thing that I think gets in the way of this invulnerability thing.

Even my fellow translator who gives me the raws and translation told me that it could be durability or invulnerability.

And it honestly doesn't change that much in the profile, so I think I'm fine with possibly now that he's said it.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

In addition to the things I've already said about why I think divine weapons are not invulnerable, the kanji used for thor and spear are the same thing, indestructible. And my fellow translator said it's much more likely to be hyperbole. If you don't want to see just my words, I can take a screenshot of him talking.

So I disagree with the gods having denial of invulnerability for destroying divine weapons.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Read round 4 again. Throughout the fight both Heracles and the gods in the audience talk about how the human weapons Jack uses will do nothing against Heracles, that they matter and so on. Of course, you could say "but Heracles is very durable", however, even a stone or blood can hurt a god if it is a divine weapon.

It is not simply a question of the weapon, its quality and power. Also because I think knives do more damage than blood. Of course, it increases the power of such a thing since the stone did more damage, but the divine weapons he makes are not his volund, they are just divine weapons.

But of course, you can understand it as a durability thing. So much so because only "weak" weapons are used against Heracles.

EDIT :Besides having the whole Qin thing that I think gets in the way of this invulnerability thing.

Even my fellow translator who gives me the raws and translation told me that it could be durability or invulnerability.

And it honestly doesn't change that much in the profile, so I think I'm fine with possibly now that he's said it.

Qin and Adam negging gods in their backstories is my primary reason for them not having invul and it simply being raw dura since they don’t even have a Volund to amp their stats when they do so. Then we have Raiden ripping off Shiva’s arms with just his raw strength since his Volund only gives him the ability to use his muscles to their full extent and body control to manipulate them around.

Also probably best to just send the screenshot.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Qin and Adam negging gods in their backstories is my primary reason for them not having invul and it simply being raw dura since they don’t even have a Volund to amp their stats when they do so.

Adam always hurt the gods by copying their divine techniques, and using them against the gods themselves. The only time he attacked and injured a god without using his eyes was when he was blinded and hit Zeus with the hand that was at volund.

Then we have Raiden ripping off Shiva’s arms with just his raw strength since his Volund only gives him the ability to use his muscles to their full extent and body control to manipulate them around.

Raiden's Volund is literally engraved in his muscles, this is his divine weapon. He doesn't have a weapon like Lubu or Adam because he uses his muscles for that. And his volund's power to control the muscles is just the added bonus of the power of the Valkyria's name, so he even injured Shiva using a divine weapon.

Also probably best to just send the screenshot.

ok

 

[PrinceofPein]

It sounds like AP issue to me also

 

[Greatsage13th]

Ye

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Also probably best to just send the screenshot.

 

[SamanPatou]

3 - I don't understand your argument of divine weapons and being indestructible, I don't see how it matters. First, this was only spoken about by Lubu, and I highly doubt he knew about the Volunds and how they work, Brunild never spoke about it. Also, as far as I remember all the divine weapons were destroyed by other divine weapons. And Thor is a divine being, beyond his strength.

It was more a matter of invulnerability belonging to DW, rather than the gods, if we wanted to still keep the matter in consideration, instead of scrapping it altogether. That is why I mentioned that in that case, other divine weapons would need to have invulnerability negation because of working on each other.

Read round 4 again. Throughout the fight both Heracles and the gods in the audience talk about how the human weapons Jack uses will do nothing against Heracles, that they matter and so on. Of course, you could say "but Heracles is very durable", however, even a stone or blood can hurt a god if it is a divine weapon.

This is why we have to establish whether the status of divine weapon grants high AP to anything or some form of durability negation.

But of course, you can understand it as a durability thing. So much so because only "weak" weapons are used against Heracles.
EDIT :Besides having the whole Qin thing that I think gets in the way of this invulnerability thing.
Even my fellow translator who gives me the raws and translation told me that it could be durability or invulnerability.
And it honestly doesn't change that much in the profile, so I think I'm fine with possibly now that he's said it.

It honestly does, because if we keep invulnerability, then it means gods can't be hurt by anything up to High 3-A unless they are divine.But from what you and your friend say, together with the examples of Adam and Qi, it seems it's more a matter of the gods being more durable than basically any human without a volund, save for exceptions such as them.Depending on the context and narrative, the word invulnerable can also be used for things and people who are just extremely durable for anyone else's standards.


Going by everything else that's being said, I think it's better to scrap any form of invulnerability, and just treat it as a matter of AP and Dura. What do you think?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

It was more a matter of invulnerability belonging to DW, rather than the gods, if we wanted to still keep the matter in consideration, instead of scrapping it altogether. That is why I mentioned that in that case, other divine weapons would need to have invulnerability negation because of working on each other.


This is why we have to establish whether the status of divine weapon grants high AP to anything or some form of durability negation.


It honestly does, because if we keep invulnerability, then it means gods can't be hurt by anything up to High 3-A unless they are divine.But from what you and your friend say, together with the examples of Adam and Qi, it seems it's more a matter of the gods being more durable than basically any human without a volund, save for exceptions such as them.Depending on the context and narrative, the word invulnerable can also be used for things and people who are just extremely durable for anyone else's standards.


Going by everything else that's being said, I think it's better to scrap any form of invulnerability, and just treat it as a matter of AP and Dura. What do you think?

I think it's good.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I also lean to agreeing with treating divine weapons as just better weapons that can hurt gods and nothing more esoteric but I don't know enough to say for sure.

 

[BoastJr]

Hmm I agree. Divine Weapons could just be fancy super powerful weapons and we already seen Qin defeat a god in the past which would contradict Gods having invulnerability. This seems like the more logical approach since we do not much evidence of God's invulnerability.

Conclusion : Agreement for removal of invulnerability

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Yeah that does prove even regular humans though extremely rarely can pose a threat to gods even without divine weapons. So gods are just stat checks?

 

[BoastJr]

snip

It does appear that way since just having amazing stats walls anything far below you.

nothing humanity makes will hurt the 5-B God Representatives either

 

[SamanPatou]

Bump

@Tllmbrg I noticed that you're a supporter, staff input would be appreciated

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

If there's proof of a human harming a god before the Valkyrie boost either on the tournament or beforehand in history, that should settle it as simply an AP issue

 

[Tllmbrg]

@Tllmbrg I noticed that you're a supporter, staff input would be appreciated

Check again

 

[SamanPatou]

If there's proof of a human harming a god before the Valkyrie boost either on the tournament or beforehand in history, that should settle it as simply an AP issue

Yes, the examples mentioned even here are Adam killing the Snake and Qi killing Chiyou

Check again

VSBW community standards prevent me from replying honestly to this situation

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Yes, the examples mentioned even here are Adam killing the Snake and Qi killing Chiyou

While Adam killing the snake is a bit of a special situation because of who Adam is, Qi killing the demon god as a human is the perfect situation to demonstrate the topic of the thread.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

While Adam killing the snake is a bit of a special situation because of who Adam is, Qi killing the demon god as a human is the perfect situation to demonstrate the topic of the thread.

Well seeing as Qi would prove the point, this would not really matter but, when Adam copies a technique, does his body also become divine? Because if not, it wouldn't make any difference since it would still be a human object

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Yes, the examples mentioned even here are Adam killing the Snake and Qi killing Chiyou

Then it should be a relatively quick CRT

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Well seeing as Qi would prove the point, this would not really matter but, when Adam copies a technique, does his body also become divine? Because if not, it wouldn't make any difference since it would still be a human object

Not sure but seeing as he did copy zeus movements and the valkyrie only raised the power of his fists then I would think his stats are also increased. His speed for sure is and I would guess his strenght as he was keeping up with zeus final form but didn't also destroy zeus second form.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Bump

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Bump

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Bump

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Bump

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Bump

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Bump

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Bump

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

How many more mods are needed to get this to pass through

 

[Jinx666]

The invulnerability is just a vicitm of mangaka inconsistency, but the Divine Weapons and Volundr is a major plot point in how the humans are actually able to pierce/compete with the God's weapons. It shouldn't be disregarded and only treated with skepticism and critique in vs matchups.

Id imagine anyone on the same AP as the Gods should be able to harm them without being 'divine', but i reckon the gods still have a granted immunity to weaker, simple man made weapons that aren't imbued with things like Ki or Magic. It shouldn't matter in their actual matchups given the tier of the verse

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

I fully agree

Also worth noting is that in Lu Bu's flashback he kept breaking his weapon's while developing Sky Eater suggesting that even before he was 5B he was already too strong for human weapons to survive his attacks for long

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