Some World of Darkness justification issues

[Udlmaster]

I'm not that aware about this verse, so i can't help that much.

Literally no one does.

It's not even a new verse, it's been around since 1981 (IIRC), it's just really unknown.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I can say that a lot of this depends on context. Context can completely make or break using these as legit ratings.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I agree. That was the idea of this.

 

[Qawsedf234]

In order to move in a realm that transcends the Concepts of Time, Space and Dimensions on a Platonic level, you need to have Immeasurable movement, or you wouldn't be able to move.

You don't. Infinite speed would be able to do what you're describing. They themselves don't transcend linear time, they themselves don't time travel with speed, they themselves don't exist in multiple temporal dimensions, and the place where they're moving in doesn't exist above a true Platonic ideal of time (as of writing this). I don't think that Immeasurable is a proper speed rating for them.

 

[Udlmaster]

Qa, in order to transcend the Concepts of Time, you need to transcend linear time.

And yes, it is the True Platonic, as the others stopped responding to my arguments, they've conceded via Burden of Rejoinder.

And Qa, 5th Tier Mages transcend time anyway, so this is a mute point of contention and is ignoring the fact that in order to transcend the concepts of time you need to also transcend linear time, this is a stupid point that people keep ignoring and aren't addressing.

Address it or conceded, because this is getting incredibly annoying.

 

[Udlmaster]

And you're forgetting, the only difference between True Platonic and False is that one is 1-A and the other isn't, they both function exactly the same otherwise.

So transcending the Platonic concept of time and space would be to transcend every variant in the verse which would include linear and non-linear and everything else.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

If you're beyond the juridiction of the very concepts of space and time, you're Irrelevant speed. Movement is not something that even can even apply in the conventional sense.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah. Its either Irrelevant which isn't possible with a 1-A rating or infinite. In either case it isn't Immeasurable.

> And Qa, 5th Tier Mages transcend time anyway

That still isn't enough for an Immeasurable speed rating

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The low 2-C justification does just appear to be describing time travel and its effect of "destroying" everything that comes after and replacing it with the new timeline caused by the traveller's actions.

 

[Antvasima]

It wouldn't hurt with if somebody asks more staff members to help here, as this seems rather complicated.

 

[Udlmaster]

If you're beyond the juridiction of the very concepts of space and time, you're Irrelevant speed. Movement is not something that even can even apply in the conventional sense.

They are, they are moving in a Void which is outside realms which transcend realms (repeat this a multitude of times) which transcend the Platonic concepts of Time, Space and Dimension.

>The low 2-C justification does just appear to be describing time travel and its effect of "destroying" everything that comes after and replacing it with the new timeline caused by the traveller's actions.

However it's not "destroying" it's flat out destroying the time line from a certain point then throwing the person to that point in time, where time is then indeterminate from that point on.

Point is, it's not Time Travel causing the Destruction, if you read the spell, it's the destruction first, then the Time Travel, which does nothing else.

 

[Udlmaster]

Yeah. Its either Irrelevant which isn't possible with a 1-A rating or infinite. In either case it isn't Immeasurable.
> And Qa, 5th Tier Mages transcend time anyway

That still isn't enough for an Immeasurable speed rating

It's not Infinite, Qa, read the Immeasurable speed term, all one has to do to gain it is be able to travel beyond Linear Time, to move in a Void beyond realms which transcend the Platonic Concepts of Time, Space etc. would do this.

You cannot say no to a defintion when it doesn't suit your side.

 

[Qawsedf234]

They themselves aren't above linear time, just a void that they sailed through. They wouldn't need Immeasurable speed to do that, so I believe infinite speed is a better alternative.

 

[Antvasima]

If it is just the void that is timeless, infinite speed would be more appropriate, yes.

 

[Qawsedf234]

From what I got is that it's a void beyond time that they move in. Which warrants either infinite or irrelevant to my understanding.

 

[Antvasima]

It depends on whether or not it qualitatively transcends the concepts of time and space themselves or just more limited space-time continuums.

 

[Antvasima]

Still, I am uncertain how to rate moving in a void that is not simply timeless, but rather transcends regular linear time.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Maybe something like "Infinite, possibly immeasurable"?

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe, but again, we need more staff input here. Feel free to ask them for help.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Ogbunbali seems to be making sense here.

A lof of the scans fall under Hyperbole. And no, you don't need to "prove something is just flowery language"; you need to give proof that what is being talked about is literal first, then evidence to the contrary may be brought forward.

 

[Udlmaster]

Ogbunbali seems to be making sense here.
A lof of the scans fall under Hyperbole. And no, you don't need to "prove something is just flowery language"; you need to give proof that what is being talked about is literal first, then evidence to the contrary may be brought forward.

Not really, you would have to prove the positive claim, which is you calling them Flowery language, and since there is no evidence saying they are flowery language, what-so-ever, you cannot prove your positive claim.

So, either give evidence to prove your claim or drop this point.

>It depends on whether or not it qualitatively transcends the concepts of time and space themselves or just more limited space-time continuums.

It transcends a magnitutde of realms which transcend the Platonic concepts of Time and Space.

 

[Udlmaster]

Maybe something like "Infinite, possibly immeasurable"?

Why would it be "possibly"?

There's nothing possible about it, it's not infinite speed what so ever, and this is such a stupid point of contention.

And yes, you would need Immeasurable speed to move in a location that transcends the Concepts of Time and Space, if they had infinite speed, then they wouldn't be able to move what-so-ever, because Infinite speed is still a measurable form of speed which is bound by time, Immeasurable isn't and works on a higher level, hence, a location which transcends Time and Space.

So yes, in order to move in a location that transcends the Concepts of Time and Space would require Immeasurable speed to move, movement beyond time.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Actually it's the other way around. You're the one that makes the claim that they are literal, hence why they are on the pages to begin with, I said they aren't because on their own they are nothing but flowery language.

Plus I don't know why you're so adamant on this subject, if you are so certain that they are literal it wouldn't hurt you if you just posted the scans where they show that they are literal, that would close this discussion instantly.

 

[Udlmaster]

>Actually it's the other way around. You're the one that makes the claim that they are literal, hence why they are on the pages to begin with, I said they aren't because on their own they are nothing but flowery language.

I told you before, it's not a claim, it's a presupposition, and since I know there is nothing to contradict it, as I know the ins and outs of the verse, I know they're not Hyperbolic or "Flowery Language", you have to then prove the positive claim "They are flowery language", I do not have to prove the negative claim of "They are not flowery language.", I recommend looking up what presuppoition is and the Burden of Proof next time.

>Plus I don't know why you're so adamant on this subject, if you are so certain that they are literal it wouldn't hurt you if you just posted the scans where they show that they are literal, that would close this discussion instantly.

I don't think you know what you're talking about, considering the fact you were willing to lie to me before, this wouldn't suprise me, but allow me to spell it out for you: "You cannot prove a negative claim." and "I do not have to prove a negative."

 

[The_Causality]

Well, this thread is basically: "Prove that the feats is/isn't a flowerly language/Hyperbole"

 

[Udlmaster]

Well, this thread is basically: "Prove that the feats is/isn't a flowerly language/Hyperbole"

Literally.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So yes, in order to move in a location that transcends the Concepts of Time and Space would require Immeasurable speed to move, movement beyond time.

But you don't under the current system. The Void in WoD is like a void in most other profiles, in that it either lacks time and space or transcends it, but in either case you don't need Immeasurable speed to move in it. Just infinite. Time is still 0 or nul in those cases while with Immeasurable it lacks it all together.

Maybe the mods agree with your views, which is fine, but from my perspective that quote alone doesn't fit with Immeasurable speed to me.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

A Void in which both Time and Space are transcended conceptually. Moving in said Void would qualify for immeasurable speed. Time and Space are both meaningless concepts in the void. It's definitely beyond linear time it isn't simply "time is 0".

 

[DMB_1]

A Void in which both Time and Space are transcended conceptually. Moving in said Void would qualify for immeasurable speed. Time and Space are both meaningless concepts in the void. It's definitely beyond linear time it isn't simply "time is 0".

Depends on what type of "concept" space and time are.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Type 2 if anyone would pay attention to the cosmology they'd know the void transcends reality.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I gave my points. If others agree to keep the rating I won't argue with it, I was just voicing my concerns with it.

 

[The_Causality]

Type 2 if anyone would pay attention to the cosmology they'd know the void transcends reality.

I mean, this depend, being "transcendant of reality" is no longer enough for Type 2, it dépend of the type of Transcendance, Nil exist as the concept of void beyond reality and it's still Type 3

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Nil doesn't transcend reality though from what I can tell.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

The concepts of the reality in WoD are type 2. Which the Void is beyond. The "Platonic" Concepts of reality exist in a higher realm compared to the actual reality.

 

[The_Causality]

i mean yes? Nil is beyond the conventional reality and not bound by it as his Concept exist as very beginning and end of reality as well

But in any case, you need to define the type of "Transcendance" for Type 2 Concepts since the requirement are a bit different as "transcend reality"

 

[Udlmaster]

>But you don't under the current system. The Void in WoD is like a void in most other profiles, in that it either lacks time and space or transcends it, but in either case you don't need Immeasurable speed to move in it. Just infinite. Time is still 0 or nul in those cases while with Immeasurable it lacks it all together.

No, it's not 0/null at all, because that still means there's an inherant value that can be applied.

Null/0 are values that can only be applied to a Timeless Void, when a place transcends the Platonic concepts of Time, there isn't null or zero, there simply isn't, because you cannot apply that sort of value to it.

> The Void in WoD is like a void in most other profiles

It's actually not, the WoD Void is pretty rare and weird, such as it conceptually attacking anything that enters it and playing host to Archetypal lies such as Duality.

>Maybe the mods agree with your views, which is fine, but from my perspective that quote alone doesn't fit with Immeasurable speed to me.

I can respect that, and I think much more of you for just saying that.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Nil doesn't transcend reality then if it's Type 3 going off current defintions.

The definition of Type 2 is still the same. When it changes this argument can stand.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Assaltwaffle defined the requirements for type 2 like this:

"I really need to make a blog that makes this more apparent, don't I?

So basically a couple things indicate this: Being completely above the reality that the concept it governs. Being capable of existence before or after the objects of the concept (the concept of space existing before space-time has come into being; the concept of death existing existing after everything has died and nothing else remains to die)."

 

[Udlmaster]

I mean, this depend, being "transcendant of reality" is no longer enough for Type 2, it dépend of the type of Transcendance, Nil exist as the concept of void beyond reality and it's still Type 3

There's a shit ton of stuff about WoD's concepts/archetypes, and all of them are Platonic, as that's the type of concepts the Verse uses, it's so prominent that all other types of Concepts are discredited and are re-made into something else, for better or for worse, and Platonic concepts are basically so perfectly exampled in WoD, that they are basically copied and pasted from a Platonic concept arcticle.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Literally.