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Yeah, Rebirth should be fine, but Flashpoint might need keys.
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Some Post Flashpoint downgrades
- Thread starter Amelia_Lonelyheart
- Start date
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- dc comics
- 165,230
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Yes. Agreed.
I am mainly uncertain if Post-Death Metal should scale to Pre-Crisis or not.
Hellbeast
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Maybe something like
New 52 | Rebirth
I’m unsure about infinite frontier
no worries; I’ve also found that Doc I mentioned but I’ve got to update it before I post it
Wait would they?
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I think "Post-Flashpoint | Rebirth" files being on the same pages look kinda fugly, tbh, separate files feel more in-line
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Oh a hundred percent, Darkseid's file looks garbo
- 10,674
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- Thread starter
- #48
Yeah that's why the pages I've made recently were titled (Post-Rebirth). I'm pretty certain Amethyst for example is a completely different character in N52 and Rebirth
Hellbeast
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I’d personally just say DC Rebirth since that’s the official term but this seems good
I can see the current profile being split three ways
Wouldn’t say Garbo but it’s questionalble to me it’s basically every version of him
I can see the current profile being split three ways
- Pre-Flashpoint (Avatars, emanations and his Godhead)
- New 52 (base and Darkseid War)
- DC Rebirth (base and the weird super form from Death Metal)
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His Godhead form is unaffected by retcons, so you’d have to fit that in somehow. (Well his avatars as well but more due to well being avatars of someone who is unaffected)
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Fair then I guess, then again he’d still have a true form of sorts in Apokolips right?
- 10,674
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- Thread starter
- #53
My biggest concern with some of these feats is the condition the characters tend to end up in. A lot of the times they're K.O'd, barely standing, or out of commission for quite some time, so even if they are legit, we can't really use them to scale. The Deathstroke Lapteus crater feat seems promising, but it appears to hurt Wondy as much as it hurts Deathstroke so that seems a bit odd to me.
Most of the AP feats seem like they'd just be varying degrees of 9-B. The shockwave feat is something I don't think is usable since the shockwave doesn't seem t affect nearby buildings at all and seems to mostly just be artistic affect to get the readers attention.
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- Thread starter
- #55
I think it should be an over-time kind of revision. I can also compile chronological lists of various characters' appearances to help determine when Flashpoint ends and Rebirth begins for each character.
- 10,674
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- Thread starter
- #57
Okay did some digging nd the Deathstroke crater feat is super not usable since he had a piece of equipment at the time that made him comparable to Wonder Woman
- 10,674
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- Thread starter
- #60
Considering the blade allowed him to survive blows from Lapetus, including a hit that hurt Wondy as much as him, I think the implication is it boosted his physicals as well.
Hellbeast
He/Him- 4,933
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I feel that’s a pretty common outlier with these kinds of fights tbh
How many times do you see Batman - Cap types tanking hits from top tiers and it never being acknowledged
That, and the fact the Godkiller is never solidly stated to amp people (beyond cutting power) makes me think it doesn’t do that
- 10,674
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- Thread starter
- #63
Well, I calced the feat just in case what the consensus on it is. 9-A to 9-A+.
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- Thread starter
- #65
Discussing it with APM, it seems to be what happened is the God Killer used absorbing powers to resist the blunt of Lapetus's attack, but Slade still took the crater himself.
Most accurate results seem to be 9-B+ to low end 9-A after some recalcs
Most accurate results seem to be 9-B+ to low end 9-A after some recalcs
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To note, @Ogbunabali made the Deathstroke page and listed him at 4-B dura, so we should at least ask him to input us treating that form as Batman level in durability
- 10,674
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- Thread starter
- #68
Okay so I read the storyline leading up to the feat. In issue 7, Slade mentions he feels the sword affecting his entire body. This isn't much on its own, but after the swords power is activated within him, in issue 8, he manages to hold his own against Wonder Woman (Trigger warning: Some very intense violence). This is notable because he's hurting her without the sword, with punches, and because he's taking a beatdown from her as the fight goes. While you could argue she's holding back, Hestia seems to deconfirm this by stating that Wonder Woman was absolutely going to beat him to death for what he did. (Issue 8)
So even if the sword doesn't boost physicals, it seems like the writer absolutely treated Slade to be stronger then usual.
Edit: I was wrong about him throwing punches, but he still hurts her without the sword, such as with his staff.
So even if the sword doesn't boost physicals, it seems like the writer absolutely treated Slade to be stronger then usual.
Edit: I was wrong about him throwing punches, but he still hurts her without the sword, such as with his staff.
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- 10,674
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- Thread starter
- #69
Bump
- 165,230
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I think that it seems to make sense that the sword nearly enhanced him to Wonder Woman's level then.
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- Thread starter
- #71
Bump.
So it seems like Batman and co will be 9-B for now.
So it seems like Batman and co will be 9-B for now.
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So do I scale the Flashes to 8-C Grodd for now?
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- #73
Grodd's 8-C feat isn't really valid either IMO. I was gonna do a Flash downgrade thread once this wraps up as to not derail this but TL;DR the only building he attacks in that comic (Flash Vol 2 178) that actually collapses is the one he throws a car at, hitting the bottom of it, causing the topside to collapse as it no longer has anything supporting its weight.
Plus Grodd is typically shown to be way the heck stronger then the Flash Family, at least when they're not going realistic, so I wouldn't feel comfortable scalng them to him.
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Ok, could that still be calced though? Seems higher than just 9-B. Right before that feat Flash was pretty unscathed by one of his attacks and while sometimes Flash struggles to hurt Grodd, other times he can put him down with enough punches without necessarily going relativistic speed (albeit being somewhat serious). So he’d still downscale in casual AP and his dura just straight up scale.
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Are there no 9-A feats left to scale from?
- 10,674
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- Thread starter
- #76
I discussed the Grodd thing with Impress and Armorchompy, the former says it should be scalable to Grodd's AP and theladder was neutral. so I think in hindsight ti can be used.
Admittily I havent read much stuff wiith Grodd so I can't give much feedback there. Maybe "At least 9-A (Stronger then Batman), likely 8-C (Can fiight Grodd, but generally shown to be weaker" for Flash family guys?
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I mean it’s not regular human speed, it’s just a bit faster than Bat-family kind of speed. Is scaling Batman to Grodd via his fight with Reverse Flash not a good idea? I don’t really mind the likely option either, though it would be useful if I had some actual values to work with here so we can see how big the difference is.
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I mean Nightwing fought Grodd together with Wally before:
Here, here and here. Although this is PC. The main problem I have with differentiating Wally’s speed while running at Batman-level speed and while standing still is that he’s usually not portrayed as much more durable when running at these speeds than when standing still (that’d imply that the first speedster to get temporarily immobilized during a speedster fight automatically loses it, which certainly isn’t the case). It might also depend on if he’s actively using speed force or not which might be hard to tell but due to his reflexes kicking in automatically it’s hard to truly hit him off-guard with using no Speed Force at all.
Also keep in mind that Reverse Flash was using his super speed during his fight with Batman and Batman got some hits in that made him bleed after stabbing him with a Batarang. Meanwhile Wally was standing still when Grodd knocked him through a building.
Long story short, Batsy can still downscale from Grodd
Here, here and here. Although this is PC. The main problem I have with differentiating Wally’s speed while running at Batman-level speed and while standing still is that he’s usually not portrayed as much more durable when running at these speeds than when standing still (that’d imply that the first speedster to get temporarily immobilized during a speedster fight automatically loses it, which certainly isn’t the case). It might also depend on if he’s actively using speed force or not which might be hard to tell but due to his reflexes kicking in automatically it’s hard to truly hit him off-guard with using no Speed Force at all.
Also keep in mind that Reverse Flash was using his super speed during his fight with Batman and Batman got some hits in that made him bleed after stabbing him with a Batarang. Meanwhile Wally was standing still when Grodd knocked him through a building.
Long story short, Batsy can still downscale from Grodd
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