Some Post Flashpoint downgrades

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

(Hopefully) a simple CRT. Basically, a few Post-Flashpoint calcs were horribly exaggerated. I haven't to all of them, but I figured it'd be best to not overwhelm people (or myself) with verse-wide revisions off the bat. Heh, bat.

Anyway. Superboy (Conner) is High 6-B via throwing Superboy (Jonathan Lane Kent) through a moon. The calc we use is wrong because it uses a not-to-scale picture that assumes that Superboy's hole is many kilometers in diameter, when it's barely just big enough for him to fly through. Better explained in the calculatiion, which yielded the results at 1 Kilotons. Conner says that he had his powers amped by tenfold while he was brawling Jonathan due to his presence, however it's not clear if that happened before or after he threw him into the moon. Because of this, I suggest 'At least 8-A' for him.

Furthermore, for Batman, both his 9-A and 8-C feats are wrong. Hs 9-A feat assumes he knocked down the door via damaging the metal (or something) when he just knocked it off its hinges. The actual feat is still a respectable 9-B since Talon still dented a solid steal door.
Likewise, the maker of the original 8-C feat (me) said the calc was probably bogus and shouldn't have been used. Well, it was, so I recalced it and got...9-B from it. For context, the original calc used the entire fragmentation of the school to scale to Batman's durability, which:

1. We only see one part of the school get blown up. The shots are intentionally framed in such a way that we ONLY see that one part, so I can only assume that's the part that got blown up.
2. The bomb was quite a far bit away from Batman and Deathstroke. There's no clear visual aid for where they were in relation to th bomb, so for the calc I assume they were in the halfway point between the hallway, and the bomb which was near a wall, which seemed like the most fair bit.
3. And lastly the original calc didn't account for surface area or anything of the sort.

If anyone has questions, issues, or concerns, feel free to let me know! Sources for every feat are in the calcs btw, so if you want to read them for yourself, that should be easy to do.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This seems reasonable.

 

[Hellbeast]

I’m pretty sure Spino had calcs in the 8-C area for Bats and co but idk

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, there were other feats for Batman's Post Flashpoint specifically, and not sure if he can be considered superior to Post Crisis version in lore statements, but I do know Post Crisis had some solid 9-A statements such as being able to punch harder than an RPG and destroy tanks with his punches.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I don't think we should use statements like that; they don't really reflect what the characters are like 99% of the time. So, unless it's consistently brought up, which AFAIK, it is not, I disagree.

Also, with all due respect, can someone actually post these supposed Tier 8 feats?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll ping @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan if he's the one who helped out.

 

[The_Impress]

...aren't Spino's calcs Post-Crisis?

Also I THINK he's not online

 

[Hellbeast]

...aren't Spino's calcs Post-Crisis?

Nah he did one for Post-Flashpoint I believe

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I’m pretty sure Spino had calcs in the 8-C area for Bats and co but idk

Most of the 8-C one are explosions iirc, although there might be some 9-A ones? Not quite sure

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

The 9-A calc assumes Batman deforms the entire door, which is why it's so high, but I agree Amelia's calc is the better one.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I don't think we should use statements like that; they don't really reflect what the characters are like 99% of the time. So, unless it's consistently brought up, which AFAIK, it is not, I disagree.

Also, with all due respect, can someone actually post these supposed Tier 8 feats?

This downgrades all of DC/Marvel and **** tons of verses
Not really sure this's a good basis for not accapting this statments
Like you can argue outlier due to other feats that are lower being portrayed as peak but the logic of "They don't usually demolish a building ergo 9-B" is a no from me

 

[The_Impress]

This downgrades all of DC/Marvel and **** tons of verses

No they don't, Marvel has more solid feats than that. It's in context to statements, which Tilm you should know, we had made a a point not to use although I don't remember if you were around for those discussions I had with APM and Spino, back when we were calc hunting

Hyperboles and exaggerations exist. Statements can at the absolute best, be used as supporting feats

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The statements themselves aren't feats, but they can be flavor text to give more context to feats. Not saying all statements can't be valid for tiers, I'm just saying that the "Statements can be feats too" can't really unless it's specifically talking about someone's past feats.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I just don't think using cross-continuity scaling based off statements is a good idea unless there's something to consistently back it up as well. Nt saying the use of statements is inherently bad.

 

[Hellbeast]

This downgrades all of DC/Marvel and **** tons of verses
Not really sure this's a good basis for not accapting this statments
Like you can argue outlier due to other feats that are lower being portrayed as peak but the logic of "They don't usually demolish a building ergo 9-B" is a no from me

Yeah forgive me if I’m wrong but don’t we already have four or five 9-A calcs for Batman? If so that seems consistent with the small building

I just don't think using cross-continuity scaling based off statements is a good idea unless there's something to consistently back it up as well. Nt saying the use of statements is inherently bad.

I do agree with this, I feel we need to prioritise the feats and statements from the main continuity they’re from

Which reminds me; Flashpoint Bruce might need some

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Also in case it wasn't clear, while I personally don't like Batman being 9-A, the calcs seem solid and they're consistent enough so I won't argue there. It's just that the feats for Post-Flashpoint Batman are from exaggerated calcs or statements that aren't backed up from his actual feats in his continuity; or at least none of the feats that anyone has brought fourth.
Hopefully this is the last time I can say that without people assuming I'm trying to force 9-C Batman.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

Should we rescale any other characters from Superboy/Conner Kent, and are these the only calculations that support the Batman-level characters' current tiers, or should they still remain as they are after this revision?

 

[Hellbeast]

Also in case it wasn't clear, while I personally don't like Batman being 9-A, the calcs seem solid and they're consistent enough so I won't argue there. It's just that the feats for Post-Flashpoint Batman are from exaggerated calcs or statements that aren't backed up from his actual feats in his continuity; or at least none of the feats that anyone has brought fourth.
Hopefully this is the last time I can say that without people assuming I'm trying to force 9-C Batman.

I recall Batman tanking a tank shell’s explosion but I idk if we know the size of the crater

It could definitely support him being small building if we downgrade and I’m sure the Mega RT has dope feats

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Thank you for helping out.

Should we rescale any other characters from Superboy/Conner Kent, and are these the only calculations that support the Batman-level characters' current tiers, or should they still remain as they are after this revision?

Only other guy I know that we scale to Conner is King Shark. When I get the time, I can check to find more.

I recall Batman tanking a tank shell’s explosion but I idk if we know the size of the crater

It could definitely support him being small building if we downgrade and I’m sure the Mega RT has dope feats

Could you link the RT? I'll check to see if he has any good calcable feats.

 

[Hellbeast]

Could you link the RT? I'll check to see if he has any good calcable feats.

Redirect Notice

 

[Antvasima]

Are these the only calculations that support the Batman-level characters' current tiers, or should they still remain as they are after this revision?

 

[Antvasima]

Only other guy I know that we scale to Conner is King Shark. When I get the time, I can check to find more.

Okay. Thanks again.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Redirect Notice

Good god almighty.

@Antvasima Post-Flashpoint Batman's speed is still scaled to Post-Crisis so I'll probably have to find better feats for that.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks again for helping out. It is very appreciated.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

So we're no longer scaling Post-Flashpoint to Post-Crisis?

 

[Hellbeast]

I’d be fine with that if we apply it to everyone

No reason to pick and choose here

I’ve got no problem with Rebirth Bruce scaling but idk about before that because I believe the Dionesium made him faster after Batman: Endgame

 

[Antvasima]

So we're no longer scaling Post-Flashpoint to Post-Crisis?

I think that the Post-Flashpoint continuity initially had nothing to do with Post-Crisis for several characters such as Superman, Flash, and Wonder Woman (I think that Batman and Green Lantern were largely unaffected though). They started to tie together Post-Rebirth, and then likely scale completely Post-Death Metal, when all of DC Comics history supposedly merged into a whole.

 

[The_Impress]

Tbh at this point isn't it getting more blatant that 9-B is more consistent for Post-Flashpoint? How many calcs have just straight up yielded 9-B results at this point, 4 no?

 

[Greenshifter]

We can scale Post-Flashpoint Batman to Grodd btw, essentially reverse the current scaling on Rebirth Wally’s page.

 

[Hellbeast]

Tbh at this point isn't it getting more blatant that 9-B is more consistent for Post-Flashpoint? How many calcs have just straight up yielded 9-B results at this point, 4 no?

I mean

Four feats for characters with 10 years of appearances is an incredibly small sample size to go off

 

[The_Impress]

I mean you're free to find 4 9-A feats to contrast. You gotta beat that rn :v

 

[Antvasima]

Tbh at this point isn't it getting more blatant that 9-B is more consistent for Post-Flashpoint? How many calcs have just straight up yielded 9-B results at this point, 4 no?

What are the still valid 9-A feats that we currently scale from?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I care less about how many 9-A feats vs how many 9-B feats there are and more about individual context. If most of the 9-B feats are not very casual with the one 9-A feat being a "He was knocked out but barely survived" scenario, I agree 9-B is more consistent. But if 9-A was a in our face destruction feat with the 9-B feats being fairly casual, then 9-A is uncontroversial to apply. Though, I can agree we should avoid using Post-Crisis era feats to scale Post Flashpoint era Batman level characters.

 

[The_Impress]

Context is essentially irrelevant though, you can find "peak feats" at 9-C and "casual feats" at 8-A, when you're talking about 10 years of different interpretations of the strength level of a character, you HAVE to acknowledge the numbers, since your criteria would be extremely muddled.

 

[Antvasima]

So what is the context of the calculated feats that we have available then?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

What I meant is scaling Batman from his own destruction feat that wasn't a chain reaction and that he did with his bare hands is usually reasonable, I'm pretty sure the "8-A" feats I haven't heard could be argued that it's just him surviving a big explosion and they didn't take important factors such as inverse square law into account among other things. It's more common for durability feats to be seen as outliers than it is destruction feats for example. As I said before, the policy on outliers has less to do with number of feats or gap between best feat and next best feat; those are indeed factors but not the only two factors. But also the difference between direct feats and indirect feats is an even better factor.

 

[Hellbeast]

I mean you're free to find 4 9-A feats to contrast. You gotta beat that rn :v

I linked the RT which should be helpful
I think I had a Doc with some feats so I’ll see if I can find that (not sure if there’s calcs tho)

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I think Rebirth and onwards should scale to Post-Crisis, but not Flashpoint itself. I think Flashpoint should go by its own feats.

As for the respect thread, it's very big and isnt clear about what feats are what continuity so forgive me, navigating it is a it unwieldly.

 

[Hellbeast]

I think Rebirth and onwards should scale to Post-Crisis, but not Flashpoint itself. I think Flashpoint should go by its own feats.

I can agree with this

As for the respect thread, it's very big and isnt clear about what feats are what continuity so forgive me, navigating it is a it unwieldly.

The Post-Flashpoint feats are bolded w blue bolded ones representing the Rebirth stuff

I’ll get the highlights tho I’d that works

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

The Post-Flashpoint feats are bolded w blue bolded ones representing the Rebirth stuff

I’ll get the highlights tho I’d that works

I didnt notice the boldings, thank you! I'll skim through it now.