Some of my Favorite Starters fight eachother (GRACE)

[Abstractions]

Haze and Mist require Blastoise being awake first, and they are both hardly game mechanics, Zap Cannon is a move based on a projectile and is described as inaccurate. Game mechanics only really supports Sing.

With Misty Terrain up, you are pitting something with an already inaccurate attack against a reliable one that has methods of weakening your damage output, in turn, forcing you to spend time not attacking to use Mist or Haze.

Primarina has better options, simply put.

 

[Drite77]

Non Sleeper and Self Curer take care of Sing, Non Sleeper makes Blastoise resist being put to sleep and Self Curer awakes him faster. Where is Zap Cannon described as inacurrate outside of the games? Not attacking to spend time using Mist or Haze is not that bad, since Blastoise has good defenses

 

[Abstractions]

Links for Non Sleeper and Self Curer and how the apply to Blastoise would be nice, as they aren't on his page nor on Bulbapedia.

Inaccuracy does come straight from the Stadium description, last I checked, we don't not listen to those.

Primarina has naturally higher health and much higher Special Attack/Defense, if we want to go that route.

 

[Drite77]

They are IQ Skills all from group E are the ones that Blastoise knows, they can be activated or not, there are alot of these that i didn't talk about, but i can say the imporatant ones if you want.

Yeah it comes, but when you group all the games, manga and the anime, hitting Zap Cannon was never a problem, and while Anime is Secondary Cannon, the examples there do count on their profile.

Not saying that Primarina hasn't, but his defenses are good enough to take some hits, with some IQ Skills, one that even boost Aqua Ring, Blastoise should be fine on health

 

[Abstractions]

Zap Cannon even in the anime was very dodgeable, and one instance required Registeel to use Lock On so it wouldn't miss, it's been more unreliable than reliable.

But Primarina's defenses are naturally higher, and she has the highest Special Attack of all starters.

I mean, Primarina also benefits from Aqua Ring, but I guess so. I'd also like to add that since Blastoise is without a trainer, there is nothing coercing it into using Zap Cannon from the start, for all intents and purposes, these Pokemon have not met before and know each other's weakness to electricity.

Also, should Blastoise use Mist or Haze, Primarina has Encore.

 

[Drite77]

I don't think that it required, but every move on the anime is very dodgeable even when they have no stats that lower Accuracy or boost evasion.

Not denying that.

Thing is that Blastoise benefits more with that. His HP is higher thanks to Brick-Tough and Aqua Ring will recover more, thanks to Wise Healer. He also has passive heal in the form of Quick Healer. Intimidator has a chance to flinch Primarina. Well, i wasn't counting on that either, however, when he notices that Primarina is a Water type like him, he will use Zap Cannon to end things quick.

Yeah it can, but that is not that easy since Blastoise is faster and it can be protected

 

[Abstractions]

Then the anime should not have been brought up as it was a non-argument.

But that's a problem, Primarina has no reason for that, as strong moves like Moonblast, Hyper Voice, Baby Doll Eyes (which has priority), and Captivate are ones they tend to use. Blastoise needs to learn their attacks won't work but Primarina really doesn't.

Blastoise would need a reason to protect before doing so, it will have no reason to anticipate Encore.

 

[Drite77]

Why? It is considered secondary cannon

BDE is not that usefull since the only good physical attack is like, Skull Bash. He has Flash Cannon as a reliable form of giving damage before Zap Cannon or he can use Mirror Coat.

The first time you never forget, but really, you are not trapped, you can go anywhere, you just need to use the move you are locked in

 

[Abstractions]

Because you brought up the anime as evidence as to why hitting Zap Cannon wouldn't be a problem, but followed it up with saying that everything in the anime is very dodgeable, which doesn't really support the point you were trying to get across.

If it has low accuracy in the games, and people don't have a problem dodging it in the anime, there isn't much suggesting it is reliable.

Yes, but Blastoise does have multiple physical options that it can go for, and my point with Baby Doll Eyes is that Blastoise would be inclined to remove the debuff, opening himself up Encore and forcing himself to one move. Same for Mirror Coat, which Primarina counters with Double Slap or Pound.

I would then ask when a Blastoise has fled, fully evolved Pokemon tend not to do that.

 

[Drite77]

Ok, then we go with the manga that is considered Primary Cannon, in wich Zap Cannon is not depict as a low accuracy move. The only times that it was acknowledged that it was a poor accuracy move was in a few games.

Considering that the guy tends to use more special moves, i don't think that it will, and Pound and Double Slap are not really that worth it just to evade Mirror Coat.

This Golem (13 mins) disagrees with you More like a tactical retreat, i mean, he is not Alakazam or Slowking to be a super smart guy, but i think that at least he would find some place safe to just use any bad move that he is locked, granted, Primarina will not let this escape be easy, but i don't think that someone would rather stay in the field to lose those Encore moves while taking damage or while the opponent is buffing themselves, than find a safe spot to use those locked moves

 

[Abstractions]

2/3 sources point to the contrary, there isn't much changing that.

Then they buff or debuff Blastoise, forcing Haze or Mist lockup.

So you acknowledge that Primarina won't just let them escape, so how does this become a problem for them? Escaping lets Primarina buff or debuff Blastoise if they don't pursue, again, forcing Haze or Mist to counter, which is then countered again by Encore.

This just continues until Blastoise eventually faints.

 

[Drite77]

I mean, not really, Zap Cannon is dipected more with a normal accuracy than a move with poor accuracy, outside of 6 games, with the 10 times that it has appeared in the manga, 12 times in the anime and 24 other game entries that don't depick Zap Cannon as having low accuracy.

I mean, with the passive recovery and HP boost, i don't think that it is that simple. Encore's effect is also lowered with the IQ Skills, meaning that it wouldn't last that long.

I don't think so, if Blastoise was a mindless beast, yeah, that could happen, but he is not, pokémon are intelligent and doing the same thing, over and over again, till he tires out, is not something that a pokémon would do, a strategy would come into play, and even with the Amnesia boost, Zap Cannon is fine with one boost of Amnesia. Captivate needs that both are from different genders to work, given the fact that both have high chance of being Male, i don't think that it is really into play

 

[Abstractions]

Blastoise has only ever had it in the games, so attempting to cut them out of the equation is silly.

Encore still having an effect is well more than enough though.

Genders are not specified and thus we can assume Captivate will work.

Zap Cannon's damage is fairly minimal at +1 Sp. Def, let alone +2. I honestly think you are overestimating it.

 

[GyroNutz]

It's perfectly fine to 'cut the games out of the equation' when said games are plagued with game mechanics that otherwise misrepresent how a move would act in an actual battle.

It's an 87.5% chance that either are male, we can assume this is the case here via overwhelming odds.

Zap Cannon is still a very powerful electric type move that's super effective on Primarina, even with a single boost. Plus the paralysis means that Blastoise can fire off at least 2 attacks for Primarina's one.

 

[Drite77]

Blastoise has only ever had it in the games, so attempting to cut them out of the equation is silly.

I was showing that Zap Cannon is depicted more with a normal accuracy than a poor accuracy. It doesn't matter if it is from the games or other source, it is clear that most depict the poor accuracy as a game mechanic

 

[HenryWong122]

Blastoise FRA!

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

6 for the Turtle

 

[Abstractions]

It's perfectly fine to 'cut the games out of the equation' when said games are plagued with game mechanics that otherwise misrepresent how a move would act in an actual battle.

It's an 87.5% chance that either are male, we can assume this is the case here via overwhelming odds.

Zap Cannon is still a very powerful electric type move that's super effective on Primarina, even with a single boost. Plus the paralysis means that Blastoise can fire off at least 2 attacks for Primarina's one.

Even in games apart from the main series such as Mystery Dungeon Zap Cannon's accuracy isn't perfect. You simply deciding that it is a game mechanic when two out of three sources (which evidence on the third has not been provided) point to it being inaccurate is wrong. You need to provide justification for this.

It does not matter, they are not specified.

Blastoises arguments all hinge on Zap Cannon, a single move that it received once and never again in all generations, and has never made use of it in the manga or anime, so it even coming into play here before he is crippled by Encores and STAB Moonblast is unlikely.

It being a powerful move is fine, but Primarina's special defenses outclass Blastoise's offensive output, even without the +2 the damage isn't remotely life threatening, which we know again, Misty Terrain exists.

 

[GyroNutz]

I don't need to prove anything; your proof for Zap Cannon not being game mechanics was another game. Look at any battle with Zap Cannon in it, for example Brandon vs Paul, and you won't see it randomly miss half the time (or much of the time at all). And btw, in Mystery Dungeon, Zap Cannon has lower accuracy than tackle, and the same accuracy as Hydro Pump.

Your argument is that captivate can work because they could be different genders. My argument is that captivate can't work if they're not different genders. The argument that is more likely is mine, so until the OP specifies otherwise, we should assume the most likely outcome (by a good amount).

I provided arguments for Blastoise before Zap Cannon was brought up, Zap Cannon is not a vital part of Blastoise's arguments, it's simply a nice supplement. Misty Terrain is nice for helping out with the paralysis, but it's one of many moves that Primarina can choose from, whereas Blastoise has more helpful versatility.

 

[Drite77]

I think that you confused Captivate's effect Gyro

 

[GyroNutz]

I'm tired

 

[Drite77]

I feel you mate

 

[HenryWong122]

Without looking it up, can anyone tell me what the effect of Captivate is?

 

[Drite77]

Lower the special attack of the target by 2 stages if it is the opposite gender

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

I think it reduces one of the attack stats but only of the opposite gender.

 

[HenryWong122]

The exact wording is: "Captivate lowers the Special Attack stat of the target by two stages, if it is the opposite gender of the user. It targets all adjacent opponents. Genderless Pokémon and Pokémon with the Ability Oblivious are unaffected by this move. It always does nothing if the user of Captivate is genderless."

 

[The_Impress]

Switching vote to Turtle boi. Grace begins

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

Yay