Some doubt on Daishinkan's manga scaling

[ArachDusa]

This is going to be a short post, mostly because I'm making it in response to a short amount of evidence used to scale the Grand Priest to Low 1-C in the manga based on Whis' statement that he's the strongest in the cosmos. The wiki considers this proof that the Grand Priest is above Zeno, but there's one reason it's not as clear-cut as you might think: The manga also has a conflicting statement that goes against this interpretation.

Just like in the anime, Shin states that Zeno is the most powerful and cannot be defeated by anyone when Goku questions if he's alive or not. This contradicts the idea that the Grand Priest is more powerful than Zeno. Is this a contradiction? Maybe, but the easiest way to reconcile these statements in my opinion is that Whis' implicitly excludes Zeno since despite being more powerful than the Grand Priest, Zeno is not a warrior. This at least makes more sense than Shin's statement excluding the Grand Priest, and of course it's far from conclusive.
For this reason, I believe the Grand Priest's rating should be changed to "At least 2-C, possibly Low 1-C" as opposed to a straight Low 1-C. I'm looking forward to see if anyone wants to argue otherwise.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I heavily agree with this thread. If you didn’t do it yourself I was probably gonna do it in the future, icl.

I think GP shouldn’t scale to Manga Zeno at all, but if people think that it should be possibly it’s whatever.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Not even a possibly. This scaling was always incredibly dubious. Axe it

 

[Hasty12345]

Agreed

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Based thread, disagree with so much as a possibly rating though.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Not even a possibly. This scaling was always incredibly dubious. Axe it

Tbh I don’t even think it’s dubious the manga clearly had very different scaling from the anime. When it literally called the GP the strongest. Bare minimum it should be possibly.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Tbh I don’t even think it’s dubious the manga clearly had very different scaling from the anime. When it literally called the GP the strongest. Bare minimum it should be possibly.

Not at all. If anything it just means the GP is the strongest warrior, which is consistent considering that Zeno doesn't fight

Also keep in mind, the manga and the anime followed the same storyboards, so I highly doubt there'd be a difference in who's the strongest between them

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Not at all. If anything it just means the GP is the strongest warrior, which is consistent considering that Zeno doesn't fight

Also keep in mind, the manga and the anime followed the same storyboards, so I highly doubt there'd be a difference in who's the strongest between them

In the manga he’s just straight up called the strongest After Zenos introduction meaning it’s not a knowledge claim. If it was talking about fighting skill then it would’ve said Daishinkan is the most skilled fighter or the mightiest warrior.

And the Manga and the Anime don’t follow the same storyboards one to one case in point Zamasu I’m the Anime is much stronger than in the manga. They follow similar story beats but they’re not one to one copies of each other.

 

[CloverDragon03]

In the manga he’s just straight up called the strongest during Zenos introduction meaning it’s not a knowledge claim. If it was talking about fighting skill then it would’ve said Daishinkan is the most skilled fighter or the mightiest warrior.

And the Manga and the Anime don’t follow the same storyboards one to one case in point Zamasu I’m the Anime is much stronger than in the manga. They follow similar story beats but they’re not one to one copies of each other.

This changes nothing. When contextualized by the fact that Zeno is the strongest being by the setting of DBS (such as with what the OP has shown), inferences like this can be made

Also, Zamasu's strength isn't a key storyboard. But Zeno being the King of Everything that is far above everyone else in the setting? That absolutely is. This is a reach to me, and my agreement with the removal remains

 

[ChoursDropoff]

This changes nothing. When contextualized by the fact that Zeno is the strongest being by the setting of DBS (such as with what the OP has shown), inferences like this can be made

What the OP contextualized by the fact the GO doesn’t resist Zenos EE thus would win in a fight. You yourself admitted he’s not a fighter. Zenos EE requires HGR Historical to come back from. The GP EE simply can’t affect a timeline.

Also, Zamasu's strength isn't a key storyboard. But Zeno being the King of Everything that is far above everyone else in the setting? That absolutely is. This is a reach to me, and my agreement with the removal remains

It was in the Original draft Zamasu wasn’t intended to be as strong as he was even Toyotarou commented on how the anime story board boosted his strength. It’s why I’m the original he’s comparable to two ssj blues and in the anime he’s comparable to ssj blue Vegito which is a huge difference.

On top of the fact that Shins word when it comes to scaling is Dubious at best considering he unironically scales Vegito above Beerus.

 

[Hasty12345]

What the OP contextualized by the fact the GO doesn’t resist Zenos EE thus would win in a fight. You yourself admitted he’s not a fighter. Zenos EE requires HGR Historical to come back from. The GP EE simply can’t affect a timeline.

Don't we treat GP as faster than Zeno or is that an anime only thing?

Because then Zeno would never win in an actual fight.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Don't we treat GP as faster than Zeno or is that an anime only thing?

Because then Zeno would never win in an actual fight.

Would make no sense if Daishinkan wasn’t Low 1-C and as I’ve illustrated Zeno would win via hax.

 

[Hasty12345]

Would make no sense if Daishinkan wasn’t Low 1-C and as I’ve illustrated Zeno would win via hax.

Zeno doesn't win if GP speed blitzes and is stronger

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Zeno doesn't win if GP speed blitzes and is stronger

Zeno doesn’t get damaged if GP doesn’t scale. And why would weaker characters than him be scared of Zeno if he doesn’t scale?

 

[DivineAura44]

Zeno doesn't fight

What makes you say this?

 

[CloverDragon03]

On top of the fact that Shins word when it comes to scaling is Dubious at best considering he unironically scales Vegito above Beerus.

Manga Vegito Blue being Beerus level is accepted btw so this isn't even very dubious

 

[CloverDragon03]

What the OP contextualized by the fact the GO doesn’t resist Zenos EE thus would win in a fight. You yourself admitted he’s not a fighter. Zenos EE requires HGR Historical to come back from. The GP EE simply can’t affect a timeline.

No, from the wording it's clear that Zeno literally can't be killed by anyone. Which means the Grand Priest can't be stronger than Zeno, otherwise that falls apart

It was in the Original draft Zamasu wasn’t intended to be as strong as he was even Toyotarou commented on how the anime story board boosted his strength. It’s why I’m the original he’s comparable to two ssj blues and in the anime he’s comparable to ssj blue Vegito which is a huge difference.

Which supports the fact that Zamasu's strength isn't a key storyboard if the anime's buffing his strength that much compared to the manga. Whereas we have much more reason to believe Zeno's strength is a key plot point. He's the King of Everything that no one is able to surpass. That's a big deal

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Manga Vegito Blue being Beerus level is accepted btw so this isn't even very dubious

It’s controdicted by basic scaling

No, from the wording it's clear that Zeno literally can't be killed by anyone. Which means the Grand Priest can't be stronger than Zeno, otherwise that falls apart

If you wanna play the wording game the scan says he can’t be defeated by anyone not that he can’t be killed. And you yourself admitted he’s not a fighter if that’s the case it means his hax are what put him ahead of the GP. Nothing falls apart.

Which supports the fact that Zamasu's strength isn't a key storyboard if the anime's buffing his strength that much compared to the manga. Whereas we have much more reason to believe Zeno's strength is a key plot point. He's the King of Everything that no one is able to surpass. That's a big deal

Considering he’s a main villain his strength has to be a plot point literally. Otherwise the story wouldn’t go out of its way to emphasize it as much. And this is also deviating from my original point that both manga and anime have different scaling.

On top of that why would you even assume the GP strength isn’t a key plot point?

 

[Hasty12345]

It’s controdicted by basic scaling

make a CRT to change it then.

 

[CloverDragon03]

It’s controdicted by basic scaling

I see no contradiction but it's not my problem, nor is this the thread to try and change the accepted scaling

If you wanna play the wording game the scan says he can’t be defeated by anyone not that he can’t be killed. And you yourself admitted he’s not a fighter if that’s the case it means his hax are what put him ahead of the GP. Nothing falls apart.

So... an admission that no one can beat him, not even the Grand Priest. Also, this was said in response to Goku asking if Zeno was still alive, meaning that yes: being killed is the implication here. Thus, no one can kill him

Considering he’s a main villain his strength has to be a plot point literally. Otherwise the story wouldn’t go out of its way to emphasize it as much. And this is also deviating from my original point that both manga and anime have different scaling.

No not really, both continuities follow the plot points of: Goku Black and Zamasu fused, Merged Zamasu cleans up house, Vegito pulls up and beats the tar outta him before defusing, then Trunks comes in for the kill before Infinite Zamasu forms, resulting in Zeno appearing and nuking the timeline

Zamasu's strength would just be whatever's needed to get the job done for these plot points. It's more flexible compared to Zeno's position as being this being that's above all others

On top of that why would you even assume the GP strength isn’t a key plot point?

Because it was only mentioned in an off-handed statement and never brought up again, in both continuities. The Grand Priest doesn't need to be the strongest, just in that upper echelon

 

[DivineAura44]

Completely ignoring my question as if wasn't worth his time was so based that I'm gonna have to agree with Clover on this subject.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

I see no contradiction but it's not my problem, nor is this the thread to try and change the accepted scaling

I’m the Broly arc it’s confirmed the potara fusion is compatible to the fusion dance.

So that’s arguing Gogeta Blue scales to Beerus. Even though I’m the next arc Goku scaled to Moro - 73. Who Piccalo doesn’t even even believe a Fussion of either would be comparable. So with this logic Vegito Wouldn’t be able to beat characters he logically scaled above.

So... an admission that no one can beat him, not even the Grand Priest. Also, this was said in response to Goku asking if Zeno was still alive, meaning that yes: being killed is the implication here. Thus, no one can kill him

An admission of what kind? Because even with your logic of arguing from a position of “speed blitz” or “not being a fighter” it would still mean the GP is comparable.

This would even include any arguments of a hypothetical “speed blitz” because how is he undefeatable if he can be perception blitz? It doesn’t make sense.

Unless your trying to argue Zeno has some form of Invulnerability/Indescribablity

No not really, both continuities follow the plot points of: Goku Black and Zamasu fused, Merged Zamasu cleans up house, Vegito pulls up and beats the tar outta him before defusing, then Trunks comes in for the kill before Infinite Zamasu forms, resulting in Zeno appearing and nuking the timeline

Infinte Zamasu is Blatantly different in the manga than he is in the anime also according for stuff like the area of Zamasu immortality being different. This is just glossing over all those details.

Zamasu's strength would just be whatever's needed to get the job done for these plot points. It's more flexible compared to Zeno's position as being this being that's above all others

Same point as stated above.

Because it was only mentioned in an off-handed statement and never brought up again, in both continuities. The Grand Priest doesn't need to be the strongest, just in that upper echelon

Even with your interpretation of just saying he’s in the Upper echelon of power it’s not an indictment of the tier. Zeno being undefeatable and the GP having the capability to blitz runs in opposition with your point. Hence why I said Possibly is warranted because at this point you’re arguing against the plot.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I’m the Broly arc it’s confirmed the potara fusion is compatible to the fusion dance.

So that’s arguing Gogeta Blue scales to Beerus. Even though I’m the next arc Goku scaled to Moro - 73. Who Piccalo doesn’t even even believe a Fussion of either would be comparable. So with this logic Vegito Wouldn’t be able to beat characters he logically scaled above.

...What? This is just completely misunderstanding what Piccolo said

He's saying that fusion techniques would be useless against Moro because he could simply undo them via Forced Spirit Fission

An admission of what kind? Because even with your logic of arguing from a position of “speed blitz” or “not being a fighter” it would still mean the GP is comparable.

This would even include any arguments of a hypothetical “speed blitz” because how is he undefeatable if he can be perception blitz? It doesn’t make sense.

Unless your trying to argue Zeno has some form of Invulnerability/Indescribablity

It simply means that Zeno is statistically far superior to the Grand Priest - not any of this other stuff. The Grand Priest isn't implied to even be able to speed blitz Zeno so idk why you're bringing this up

Infinte Zamasu is Blatantly different in the manga than he is in the anime also according for stuff like the area of Zamasu immortality being different. This is just glossing over all those details.

Yeah, because the specifics of how Infinite Zamasu is handled was left up to the writers. That part's not a part of the shared storyboards, clearly

And yes, I'm glossing over specific details on purpose. Because the storyboards are very general by nature

Same point as stated above.

A refuted point, yes

Even with your interpretation of just saying he’s in the Upper echelon of power it’s not an indictment of the tier. Zeno being undefeatable and the GP having the capability to blitz runs in opposition with your point. Hence why I said Possibly is warranted because at this point you’re arguing against the plot.

No, this is just arguing a possibly rating for the sake of it. He doesn't scale at all to Zeno when Zeno is the supreme being of the Dragon Ball verse

 

[ChoursDropoff]

...What? This is just completely misunderstanding what Piccolo said

He's saying that fusion techniques would be useless against Moro because he could simply undo them via Forced Spirit Fission

This is misunderstanding the point if Vegito is physically stronger then these characters then there’d be no situation where the ability would come into play. Spirit Fission is not a passive hax.

It simply means that Zeno is statistically far superior to the Grand Priest - not any of this other stuff. The Grand Priest isn't implied to even be able to speed blitz Zeno so idk why you're bringing this up

You literally said a few comments ago that Zeno is not a fighter and the oppositions argument was the GP is physically faster than Zeno. This is back peddling.

Yeah, because the specifics of how Infinite Zamasu is handled was left up to the writers. That part's not a part of the shared storyboards, clearly

Then it shows that there are clear differences between the manga db anime when it comes to the plot evens of the story. We can’t picks choose what parts of the narrative we pay attention to.

And yes, I'm glossing over specific details on purpose. Because the storyboards are very general by nature

While leaving out context of the story

A refuted point, yes

A contradicted argument

No, this is just arguing a possibly rating for the sake of it. He doesn't scale at all to Zeno when Zeno is the supreme being of the Dragon Ball verse

No the story blatantly stated GP was stronger that’s not arguing for the sake of it. It’s paying attention to literal dialogue. You can be the top of the verse and not be Infinitely stronger than anyone below you.

 

[CloverDragon03]

This is misunderstanding the point if Vegito is physically stronger then these characters then there’d be no situation where the ability would come into play. Spirit Fission is not a passive hax.

That's not the case. Moro activates Spirit Fission and Vegito defuses, rendering the fusion pointless. That's all it is. You're extrapolating something that's not there

You literally said a few comments ago that Zeno is not a fighter and the oppositions argument was the GP is physically faster than Zeno. This is back peddling.

I'm backpedaling from... an argument I never made? Lol

Do you think that the opposition is one big monolith that all has the same arguments? No, I never once claimed anything about speed, so please don't put words in my mouth. Zeno not being a fighter is also irrelevant to the speed stuff

Then it shows that there are clear differences between the manga db anime when it comes to the plot evens of the story. We can’t picks choose what parts of the narrative we pay attention to.

None of this is related to the storyboards, which are all general stuff that the anime and manga then get to be creative with. And you know what's something general and not a specific offhanded thing? Zeno being the undisputed supreme being of the DB verse. That's consistent across both media, and the only potential refute is an offhanded statement that's contradicted by the narrative you're arguing for

While leaving out context of the story

Aka uber-specific stuff that's not relevant to my point about the storyboards that are shared between the two media - you know, the general plot points

No the story blatantly stated GP was stronger that’s not arguing for the sake of it. It’s paying attention to literal dialogue. You can be the top of the verse and not be Infinitely stronger than anyone below you.

Again: an offhanded statement that's contradicted by the overall established narrative of Zeno being above everyone. He can have anything or anyone erased if he wants. You know who "anyone" includes? The Grand Priest. The narrative is evidently that Zeno is above everyone

It's clear that I'm not gonna convince you, no matter what, so if this is gonna be the same back-and-forth with nothing new then I'll just defer to the staff here

 

[ArachDusa]

For once everyone agrees with me. While we're at it, if everyone agrees to remove the Low 1-C scaling completely, I feel like this is the main thing that differentiates it from the Grand Priest's anime profile, so if we remove it, we should also merge the profiles into a composite like the wiki did with the rest of the Angels.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves...

 

[Nierre]

LMAOOO

 

[Killerdrone123]

Grandpriest should be low 1c but for different reason so I agree

 

[ArachDusa]

Grandpriest should be low 1c but not for that reason so I agree

What's the reason then?

 

[Killerdrone123]

What's the reason then?

Eh he should be capable of destroying a timeline not to mention the fact that his children could also affect the entire timeline but that's via hax him just scaling to only two macrocosms just doesn't sit right with me not to mention he stopped two full power G.O.D just with his pinky and is way superior to his children who could you know one shot the said characters while being heavily suppressed but that's just me this wiki doesn't work on assumptions so..

But I agree he is not superior to zeno

 

[ChoursDropoff]

The removal of the tier completely is dumb but there’s no point on going back and forth with it if I’m out numbered.