So...Superman

[LordNidhoggr]

Ok, let me start by saying I'm a bit apprehensive about this one. I've looked up and down the site and the forum and I haven't seen this brought up, but if I'm wrong I apologize. So...

Post-Crisis Superman's tier is...contentious. He has many individual feats that would put him above 4B, but they're mostly inconsistencies and outliers. However, he has a feat that might support some of those outliers: Superman is able to interact with and, to a limited degree manipulate, the Bleed, the inter-dimensional stuff that all of the universes and planes exist in that connects them, like an ocean to various islands. In Final Crisis, Lois is dying and can only be saved by an infusion of Bleed, so Superman goes to obtain it. When he reaches the Monitor/Overmind level, Mandrakk taunts him with a vial of the stuff, claiming that it is impossible to "bottle or consume, except by us," referring to himself and the other Monitors. Mandrakk is ultimately beaten by the Thought Robot and Superman carries a piece of Bleed back into his universe and returning to Lois, where his kiss transfers the Bleed to her. This is noted as a significant feat because, as the narration says, "They said nothing could hold or contain the Bleed, they said. They were wrong. Superman can."

So, the question is what would this actually constitute tier-wise? The Monitors are Tier 4, but the Bleed exists outside of the 4D universes that populate the Multiverse. Some other feats considered dubious or outliers could be supported with this, such as Superman surviving Aztek's "4D Explosion," surviving the Big Bang Imperiex set off, and destroying the "reality-blitzing missiles" of Mandrakk's ship. To go on a tangent to cover something about that last feat, in the debunks I read the primary reason this was considered an outlier was that Superman was still in Limbo and/or still in "boom tube" mode/level of existence. However, I think there's good evidence that it did take place in the lower multiverse, primarily because of the line: "This infinitesimal object from the Monitor World, gigantic in our own...," which to me sounds like it the confrontation with the carrier and its missiles happened below the Monitor/Limbo level of existence.

So...what do you guys think? Is there something to this, or am I horribly mistaken about how this should scale? Let me know...nicely.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think this was agreed to just be conceptual manipulation resistance, but it's not a feat that would scale to Superman's tier. Some people have tried to use this as a Tier 1 feat a long time ago. But I forgot which one who refuted this, but I know FanofRPGs is one of the main people who often refutes Superman being any higher than Tier 4.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Post-Crisis Superman's tier is...contentious. He has many individual feats that would put him above 4B, but they're mostly inconsistencies and outliers. However, he has a feat that might support some of those outliers: Superman is able to interact with and, to a limited degree manipulate, the Bleed, the inter-dimensional stuff that all of the universes and planes exist in that connects them, like an ocean to various islands. In Final Crisis, Lois is dying and can only be saved by an infusion of Bleed, so Superman goes to obtain it. When he reaches the Monitor/Overmind level, Mandrakk taunts him with a vial of the stuff, claiming that it is impossible to "bottle or consume, except by us," referring to himself and the other Monitors. Mandrakk is ultimately beaten by the Thought Robot and Superman carries a piece of Bleed back into his universe and returning to Lois, where his kiss transfers the Bleed to her. This is noted as a significant feat because, as the narration says, "They said nothing could hold or contain the Bleed, they said. They were wrong. Superman can."

About this, I have really weird feelings when it comes to this, despite that I agree with Superman tier 1, I dont think that this is a good reason to scale, there has no way that base superman could sustain the Bleed that only characters like Mandraak could, this is the definition of outlier itself, because it will be like Base Superman = Mandrakk = Cosmic Armor Superman

 

[LordNidhoggr]

@DarkDragonMedeus:
Well, if he did address it, it wasn't in any of the "debunk" threads linked to Superman's profile (that I saw/showed up when doing a word search, it is possible that I missed it though), or anywhere in the forums. And I must admit I'm confused as to why it counts as resistance...hope that doesn't come across as patronizing. Wouldn't it better qualify it as some kind of reality-warping hax? The Bleed is an extra-dimensional substance that is essentially storylines given form. To be able to withstand and manipulate (which I would qualify transferring it to Lois as manipulation) that kind of meta-narrative substance is a feat. Especially when you look at it where the Bleed itself, the collection and condensation of stories that make up the DC multiverse, says that Superman cannot manipulate it. Superman literally broke the meta-narrative of his multiverse by doing something literally impossible (which is kind of a continuation of his time as the Thought Robot, who was a self-assembling hyper-story able to manipulate the metanarrative so that it would always win).

@Bernkastelll
I don't think that's quite right, or at least that's not how I see/intend to portray it. As noted above, the Bleed is essentially a condensation of the ongoing stories and meta-narratives that make up the DC Universe. Crucially, though, it's the stories of everything below the Monitor dimension; the Monitors tend to and feed on the Bleed to sustain their higher-level existence. Mandraxx and Thought Robot Superman scale even higher than the Monitors. The difference between what Superman does, in getting a piece of Bleed to Lois, and what Mandrakk and the Thought Robot do, in surpassing the Bleed such that it is a mere substance to them that can be manipulated or ignored, being that they are creating self-assembling stories that surpass and change all tiers of reality below the Monitor Overmind rather than be subject to any narrative causality the Bleed would encompass. Superman being able to contain and use the Bleed should thus scale him higher than Tier 4, due to the Bleed being a 4th-dimensional state, but much lower than Mandrakk or Thought Robot Superman, who can treat it as something no different than water to us.

I would also like to bring up a separate thing that stuck out to me from the debunk pages, that being Superman's encounter with the Tesseract Swarm. @Firestorm808 and @FanofRPGs question how it scales to universal tier. The answer, from what I've seen, that it scales to universal because Tesseracts in DC contain universes inside them, being 4th-dimensional objects. The Tesseract Swarm cut Superman into pieces by interacting with him in a higher dimension, and he was able to pull himself back together, which would necessitate either some form of hax or operating at least partially in the 4th dimension. 4D tiering, even at lowball, would put him around universe level.

At least...that's how I see it. It's very possible I'm wrong, but I do think that some changes might be warranted even if it isn't to the extent of changing his tier. But I think at this point I should just see what the consensus is, so I probably won't post unless directly addressed. Thanks, guys!

 

[Bernkastelll]

@Bernkastelll
I don't think that's quite right, or at least that's not how I see/intend to portray it. As noted above, the Bleed is essentially a condensation of the ongoing stories and meta-narratives that make up the DC Universe. Crucially, though, it's the stories of everything below the Monitor dimension; the Monitors tend to and feed on the Bleed to sustain their higher-level existence. Mandraxx and Thought Robot Superman scale even higher than the Monitors. The difference between what Superman does, in getting a piece of Bleed to Lois, and what Mandrakk and the Thought Robot do, in surpassing the Bleed such that it is a mere substance to them that can be manipulated or ignored, being that they are creating self-assembling stories that surpass and change all tiers of reality below the Monitor Overmind rather than be subject to any narrative causality the Bleed would encompass. Superman being able to contain and use the Bleed should thus scale him higher than Tier 4, due to the Bleed being a 4th-dimensional state, but much lower than Mandrakk or Thought Robot Superman, who can treat it as something no different than water to us.

I see, and the fact that its the narrative itself that stated that Superman can countain it can make it consistent

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Not sure but this seems like some sort of ability/hax rather than a feat of raw power, though if I’m wrong Superman jumping from 4-B to Tier 1 would require extraordinary evidence and justifications beyond this one feat.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

Not sure but this seems like some sort of ability/hax rather than a feat of raw power, though if I’m wrong Superman jumping from 4-B to Tier 1 would require extraordinary evidence and justifications beyond this one feat.

Well...yeah. That big of a change would need a lot more justification. I don't think Post-Crisis Superman is Tier 1, or even Tier 2; I think he's a Tier 3B-to-low-3A based on more than one piece of evidence that he can work, at least partially, in 4D space, which would be right about Universal to maybe Universal+ tier.

Bernkastelll:​

I see, and the fact that its the narrative itself that stated that Superman can countain it can make it consistent​

Pretty much. The narrative says he can't do it, he does it, and the narrative auto-corrects so that this impossibility is now possible for Superman. It's not really an outlier that Superman can change the narrative: "the story of Superman" is actually one of his meta-powers/hax that can make the impossible possible, or overwrite the current bad ending of the narrative with an ending where justice prevails. The Story of Superman is integral to the DC uni/multi/omniverse, so much so that it can be said to the single most important component of DC, with all of reality built on it as a foundation. This was literally weaponized, too: the Thought Robot is essentially the Story of Superman anthropomorphized, or maybe it would better to call it the avatar, as the full importance and influence of the Story could only kind of be contained, even at the level of the Thought Robot and Monitor Overmind.

 

[Antvasima]

@Firestorm808

WOuld you be willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[Planck69]

Well...yeah. That big of a change would need a lot more justification. I don't think Post-Crisis Superman is Tier 1, or even Tier 2; I think he's a Tier 3B-to-low-3A based on more than one piece of evidence that he can work, at least partially, in 4D space, which would be right about Universal to maybe Universal+ tier.

Working in 4-dimensional space isn't 3-A or Low 2-C in and of itself. It's just Unknown.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

Working in 4-dimensional space isn't 3-A or Low 2-C in and of itself. It's just Unknown.

That's fair, but I think it's less having the power/ability to affect the 4D in and of itself and more about how it makes some of his outlier feats more plausible. For example, Earth 2 Superman/Golden Age Superman was able to punch his way into the primary DC universe and Superman was equal to him when they fought, and it's specifically noted that they're causing weird stuff to happen in local space-time. Punching through the wall is already a temporal 4D, and it's counted as a 2C feat for Golden Age Superman. Since Post-Crisis Superman was able to match E2 Superman, his demonstrated 4th-dimensional hax/manipulation means that it isn't just E2 Superman causing those space-time anomalies on his own and also suggesting that PC Superman should scale at least somewhat to E2 Superman.

Other feats like circumnavigating the entirety of his universe to destroy all of Mandrakk's reality-blitzing missiles in the time between two of Lois Lane's heartbeats, carrying the Bleed in his body (which should count as pretty serious hax even if it isn't a power-displaying feat, given that it's technically meta/plot manipulation), and surviving Imperiex's big bang support this because when looking from the perspective that being able to operate, to any significant degree, on a higher dimension provides an explanation and justification for the argument that those feats aren't one-offs to be ignored when assessing his tier.

If I'm making an unreasonable conclusion from flawed interpretation, I'm OK with that, but I really do think that having higher-dimensional abilities is a good way to explain PC Superman's multiple high-tier one-offs as things other than "the plot said so" or "depending on the writer" type stuff.

 

[Firestorm808]

Regarding 4D statements, we need more context into what that means with the feat in question.

• Claim: Superman surviving the Big Bang Imperiex set off
  • Action Comics Vol 1 #782 | October 2001
    • Superman didn't stay at the dawn of time when the big bangs went off.
• Aztek's "4D Explosion"
  • JLA Vol 1 #41 | May 2000
    • We are told that 4D energy was released, but how are we quantifying that?
    • We see that the explosion caused Maggedon pain, but none of the structures inside are significantly affected.
    • Maggedon's battery only contained energy enough to destroy half a galaxy.
    • Additionally, Tier 2 would be inconsistent with the era at the time.
• Superman destroys the "reality-blitzing missiles" of Mandrakk's ship
  • Final Crisis: Superman Beyond Vol 1 #2 March 2009
    • This still takes place in Limbo because we are shown that the destroyer ship is actively attacking Limbo. It's also clear that they aren't in normal space.

 

[Bernkastelll]

• We are told that 4D energy was released, but how are we quantifying that?

Wdym? 4-D is 4-D

 

[Planck69]

Ignoring how energy has no dimensionality so saying something like 55-dimensional energy means absolutely nothing, just releasing energy that can ambiguously affect a 4-dimensional area isn't tierable with anything beyond Unknown.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Ignoring how energy has no dimensionality

It has, Chaos Force is a 5-D energy, and 4-D in DC already fits with our current standards of tier 2

 

[Planck69]

It has, Chaos Force is a 5-D energy, and 4-D in DC already fits with our current standards of tier 2

Chaos Force transcends space and time and is Low 1-C, it has no actual dimensionality. I'm talking about actual dimensionality not "affects Tier 1 area so X-D" that we use as a quick way to refer to said tier.

Energy itself is scalar so yes, it doesn't have dimensionality.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Chaos Force transcends space and time and is Low 1-C, it has no actual dimensionality.

if it transcend space and time and its rated as Low 1-C, it have a dimensionality, and the 4-D in DC already transcend space in a way that grants tier, it is really well explained

 

[Bernkastelll]

if it transcend space and time and its rated as Low 1-C, it have a dimensionality, and the 4-D in DC already transcend space in a way that grants tier, it is really well explained

 

[Bernkastelll]

Source Justice League (2018) issue 19

 

[Bernkastelll]

Source Justice League (2018) issue 19

Another proof of things like ''4-D energy'' or ''5-D'' energy is valid in DC, Mxy explains that he gives Fifht Dimensional energy to protect superman from the madness of Sixth Dimension, so, things like 5-D energy or 4-D energy indeed have some kind of dimensionality and enough power

Source: Justice League 2018 issue 19

 

[Planck69]

if it transcend space and time and its rated as Low 1-C, it have a dimensionality, and the 4-D in DC already transcend space in a way that grants tier, it is really well explained

Do you understand what I'm saying? Energy itself has no dimensionality. It can affect dimensional structures yes, but there isn't such a thing as 5-dimensional energy in and of itself.

It being called 5-dimensional means it's Low 1-C. That's really it. I have no idea why you bothered throwing scans at me when that's not even the focus of what I'm saying.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Do you understand what I'm saying? Energy itself has no dimensionality. It can affect dimensional structures yes, but there isn't such a thing as 5-dimensional energy in and of itself.

In DC it does and I sent scans proving it

 

[Planck69]

I....can't even be bothered anymore.

 

[Bernkastelll]

In DC it does and I sent scans proving it

thats what im saying

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Planck and Firestorm. Thank you for helping out.

We should preferably close this thread.

 

[Teezar]

The bleed revolves around the 5D. It ain't 4D.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

Huh...this got a bit crazy. Ok, so some thoughts.

@Firestorm808 Welp, yeah, went back and looked and the big bang thing definitely isn't a feat. I don't know how I missed Supes leaving, but I did. The reality missiles thing...honestly, I think that it's still viable because it does talk about manifesting in the lower multiverse, and the background is just the Bleed, which is between all realms, so traveling through it shouldn't automatically discount it. However, I don't think it's worth arguing about, so it can be left too. The "4D energy explosion"...well, I'll get back to that one.

Right now, as a matter of fact. It seems there is a disagreement about whether or not energy is dimensional, and I have some thoughts. Energy obviously doesn't have dimensions of its own because it isn't a physical construct. That said, I don't think it precludes the existence of "dimensional energy," instead of looking at it from the energy side, look at it from the dimensional side. Higher dimensions are more complex than lower dimensions, so it would make sense that some kinds of energy can only be made/exist in these higher dimensions. When Mxyzptlk infuses Superman with 5D energy, what he's doing is giving Superman the ability to expend energy once he's in said higher dimensions, as well as the energy acting like a pressure suit when diving: it keeps 5D energy from flooding Superman's body due to equalization.

Superman's ability to interact with 4D and 5D (assuming the Bleed is 5D like @Teezar said) should at least affect his AP, as acting upon and interacting with higher dimensions requires energy be expended in that context. Superman simply surviving in the Bleed is a pretty impressive feat given the measures other characters have to use in order to do the same, most notably is probably The Authority, who use a living ship made from a Bleed-native species. Superman's body adapts to this higher plane on its own, and quickly, giving him 4D vision in addition to being able to physically exist without being victim to higher dimensions destroying his physical makeup.

But maybe the best way forward isn't to change PC Superman's tier directly, but instead create a new key for it: Boom-Tube Superman. PC Superman has used Boom Tubes and other similar boosts many times, including every time he visits New Genesis or Apokolips, as well as his trips into Bleed-realms like Limbo. Superman easily scales to Universal in these circumstances and has feats like managing to hurt Soulfire Darkseid, holding the infinite book (Ultraman does actually move it and he is equal to, if not weaker than, Superman), and destroying Mandrakk's reality-blitzing missiles (if considering them being in Limbo/the Bleed as opposed to real space).

Let me know if that's a terrible idea. If the topic is closed...eh, OK.