Sniper Duel: Vindicare Assassin vs Widowmaker

[Wokistan]

Vindicare Assassi vs Widowmaker

Speed equal

Takes place in the Profaned Capital

Both start 3km away, with no line of sight. Both only knows that there's a rival sniper after the other, and doesn't know of appearances. No Vanus support for the Vindicare (40k CIA), and nothing similar for widowmaker.


Vindicare Assassi

Widowmaker

Inconclusive:

 

[Abstractions]

This is a tough match to guess.

While the Vindicare normally takes it in the range department, they've been put close enough together where Widowmaker is able to shine.

Both are incredibly skilled, given that Widowmaker is comparable to Ana, someone McCree (Someone with perfect percision through Deadeye) regards as a better shot than him, and the Vindicare being known for their perfect percision as well.

While the Vindicare does possess more destructive capabilities and more options with their technology, Widowmaker should have the mobility and scouting advantage through her Grappling Hook and Infra-Sight.

What this match truly comes down to is who locates the other first, which is why I believe this matchup favors Widowmaker.

I say this in confidence that Widowmaker is more than likely to immediately trigger her Infra-Sight to obtain the Vindicare's location and before they have the chance to hunker down and slow their metabolism to reduce their heat signature, and through the use of her Grappling Hook she will quickly obtain a favorable location in which all she has to do is wait.

But then you may ask, what if the Vindicare chooses to set up somewhere out of line of sight?

Well, Widowmaker's grapple doesn't run on a cooldown, and given that she'll have prior knowledge to the direction they would be facing, she could avoid the Vindicare's LoS and still find a location she can quickly get the shot off in, whereas the Vindicare is running off the gamble that Widowmaker is going to move within their LoS and with their enhanced senses will be able to make quick work of her. Widowmaker has more certainty in her strategy.

I'd say Widowmaker finds her mark 6.5/10.

 

[Wokistan]

I tried to set up a distance where the VA does have an advantage initially since I believe in letting characters use range advantages, but not to an extent that makes it a stomp. Widowmaker's max is attainable, considering they'll be sneaking around.

I may end up posting some vindicare quotes later, but yeah both are quite good and experienced. Personally I'm giving the VA the advantage there, but I sorta have to explain my arguments to make them so...

Grapple is definitely a boon in the Profaned Capital. However, I don't see what makes her infrasight super helpful. There's the issue with VA metabolism lowering, as we briefly touched on in chat, and I'm pretty sure synskin says no to infrared stuff. Lemme search for that. Also, the spy mask sounds better, from what I know of vindicares and what's described on widow's page.

They don't trigger their spy mask though. That's how they see. It's strapped to their face. It's always on, just not always zoomed in which they can alter at will. VA's are also very patient, given the dude who waited 6 years.

There's also the issue of the deadliness of their guns. Widow has a high 8-C rifle. Exitus rifles have that, along with Hellfire and Turbo-Penetrator dhells. Hellfires explode into an extremely potent toxin that really ***** organic material, and given that they both know a sniper is gunning for them the VA'd probably start with these. Turbo-Penetrators are like power weapons, in that they emit a field of molecular destabilization around them letting them rip through the toughest of targets with ease. They're better at destroying vehicles than light melta weaponry, which can end up tier 6. While a VA may survive a shot of Widoemaker due to durability+synskin, I seriously doubt widow would survive a hellfire.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Wok Widow's infrared lets her see things that arent alive, like omnics such as Zenyatta, Orisa, and Bastio as well as invisible characters like Sombra

Widow also has an explosive that releases a potent poison

 

[Abstractions]

Like I said, him being able to lower his metabolism is an issue but it's covered by the fact that Widow will lead with Infra-Sight before he can find an adequate position to hunker down in, making him clearly visible to her.

Their profile makes no mention of the Synskin being able to block therrmal, and I never made a remark on the spy mask having to be triggered.

The reason I said Infra-Sight > Spy Mask was because in this situation her Infra-Sight serves as an immediate locator, granting her a huge advantage regardless of the capabilities of the mask.

Which is why I mentioned that it would more than likely come down to the first shot, and if the VA does manage to survive the shot, it will undoubtedly surprise him, and as soon as he tries to hone in on Widow she will already be grappling to another position whilst shooting, given that's how she performed in Legacy.

 

[Wokistan]

Omnics still would generate heat, and being invisible never stopped infrared. I'm saying synskin has a specific statement of negating that sort of thing.

There's also how a lone vindicare held off an eldar assault including dudes with precog but let's not get into that now.

Good thing the spy mask has a potential filter, and synskin also is great against that sort of thing. From what abstractions told me in chat it wasn't even that great, despite what I remembered from playing overwatch like 3 times.

 

[Wokistan]

I don't think a VA dropped into an unknown area told they're being hunted by a sniper is going to take a chance with not abusing their bio manip, especially when infrared tech is the least of what they could possibly have to worry about.

I could be wrong about the statement, but I could have sworn something like that exists. Lemme look for it.

Actually, VA reaction speed is pretty insane. There's the 6 years wait guy, a guy who rapid fired his pistol when ambushed with each bullet killing s separate guy, and the fact that these dudes can process an amount of information able to overwhelm veteran astartes with ease. Veteran astsrtes can end up with hundreds of years experience. Grappling just gives them an easier shot, because it locks her motion into far more predictable arcs and patterns. Spy mask also AIDS in returning fire.

 

[Wokistan]

Apparently the anti infrared stuff is said on some rulebooks I don't have on my phone (Rouge Trader and Only War), so no direct quote of that rn. However I just noticed that the spy mask itself also has thermal capabilities.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

What good would their bio manip do here exactly? BTW, Widow's infra-sight works by detecting electromagnetic radiation, not just heat. It also works on other Widowmakers despite Widow herself being clod-blooded

 

[Wokistan]

It let's them slow their metabolism so they can wait for really long amounts of time and such a thing would throw off infrared even more than usual.

There's also bio manip in the bullet I guess.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

But...sitting still and doing nothing wouldnt throw off her infra-sight at all seeing as she can use it to see things that dont even have biological components and it works by viewing electromagnetic radiation, not heat signatures.

 

[Wokistan]

Do you happen to have a quote or place I can find a quote for that, because that directly contradicts the profile and the name of the ability.

I think it working on herself is game mechanics, and that you'd need a story scene of something like that.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Do you happen to have a quote or place I can find a quote for that, because that directly contradicts the profile and the name of the ability.

Here ya go, its from the official source guide for the verse

 

[Wokistan]

You don't need to be biological to give off heat. An engine capable of powering a high 8-C robot is gonna be getting real hot.

Source on the electromagnetic stuff? I don't think that's really something constantly exhuded by living beings anyways.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Here ya go, its from the official source guide for the verse

 

[Wokistan]

Wait, infared light (what thermal sensors detect) is a form of electromagnetic radiation. This doesn't differentiate it from standard thermal.

 

[Abstractions]

Yes, but their bio manipulation is reliant on them being still, as it specifically mentions that it allows them to adjust their metabolism to occupy the same location without moving, hence my point that she will spot him before he finds an advantageous spot to camp.

Ana also had enhanced senses and had troubles keeping sight with Widow while she grappled and as I mentioned, she wouldn't have to readjust her position if the VA is killed by the shot, which we aren't too certain on yet.

If she has to readjust after shooting, the VA will have already been staggered by the first shot to the head, granting her a thin window to move to a different spot that doesn't necessarily have to be right through his LoS.

 

[Wokistan]

That doesn't mean it's reliant on being still, that means that being able to remain perfectly still for extreme periods of time is what it's usually used for. There's also the synskin stuff but I'll see if I can get the direct quotes from the books tomorrow.

Are they enhanced to the degree provided by the spy mask and all the assassinorum training though? Ana missing a shot also doesn't really change how widowmaker's path of flight is locked down due to the nature of how a grapple works, as widow can't fly.

Not necessarily. One shot a shot thst would have killed Horus if he wasn't Horus midway through freezing to death in open space, and synskin is noted to completely absorb the impact of bolter shots so them being really super hurt is in question. There's also how much of the profsned capital is pretty open after Yhorm accidentally immolated most of it, so widow doesn't really have much place to grapple to unless they're in a building or something. If that's how it is, blind grenade/melta bomb/pistol spam GG.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Widow cant fly but she can use her grappling hook in succession as shown in the Overwatch cinematic and iirc her own cinematic as well

 

[Wokistan]

The issue is, a grappling hook is still a grappling hook, causing her motion to be locked to relatively simple arcs that assassin trainees could easily predict in their head without the mask helping them out.

 

[Abstractions]

Except that is exactly how it is used, as slowing his metabolism is used for the scenario where he has to wait.

Should the Synskin have the ability to block thermal, there would also be no reason for the VA to use his bio manipulation that way.

Not necessarily, but it clearly helps her alude fire from people who are considered superiors to those who can aimbot.

If your intention was to strip Widow of any advantage there may be by putting them in an open area with someone who has multiple methods to one-shot her with if she cannot return the same in a sniper fight, then why bother here?

That strategy implies he's not using his metabolism abilities to do what he usually does with them, and knows her location, which she is good at concealing.

 

[Wokistan]

The fact that that's the most common uage does not mean that it is totally unusable by others. However me just finding and posting the direct synskin quotes would be best.

I'll just post VA skill feats tomorroe

I realized the durability issue after the fact, though I have no idea where the space marine calc assassin's scale to is so if widoe has a decent number we can probably ignore that. Profaned capital is underground and mostly in a cave. There's some burnt out buildings in some places, and a cave system, but there's also massive crevaces and chasms. It's not like a flat plains, and having a grappling hook in such a verticalty based area is certainly helpful, bit it's not an absolute get out of jail free every time.

Wym by the latter part of this?

I'm gonna go to sleep. Good debate so far.

 

[Abstractions]

Wym by the latter part of this?

I'm not sure what this is meant to be a reply to, so I'll provide reasoning for two things.

If she was unable to use her abilities effectively, and didn't have the means to one-shot her opponent when they have more than enough ways to do so, then the match isn't exactly in good taste.

He uses his metabolism for waiting traditonally, that's its use, meaning if he was planning on going on an assault through the builiding he would first have to know she was in there and secondly be potentially endangering himself for the sake of going on the offensive, which wouldn't be smart given how fast she can readjust her position for a clear view of her target.

His best bet is hunkering down in an area with no blind spots, provided she doesn't find him first.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Doesn't Assassin hold like an absolutely insane skill advantage over Widowmaker? I don't doubt Widow's ability to assassinate homeboy, but IIRC he's got a pretty high level of skill.

 

[Wokistan]

Ok actually gonna sleep after this.

That was a response to your last segment.

That was because I forgot the durability was "absorbed bolter fire" as opposed to "they weren't turned to a bloody mist when a boltet shot them but were still badly hurt". I'm assuming theyre baseline because iIhave no idea where the calc they scale to is, so if widow has a good calc we can just assume that it's strong enough to mitigate that. If you've got an idea for a better location I'm down for suggestions.

That's fair, but going on the offensive as a vindicare can happen and work out. Their pistols are just cut down versions of their rifles, and they have stuff like blind nades to make use of in closer quarters.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Widow is 4.7 Tons

 

[Mr. Bambu]

From where? I don't doubt it, just interested.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

From this

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Honestly, Widowmaker's Infra-Sight doesn't really stand up to the Spy Mask, IMO.

He sees much of what Widowmaker sees and more. He has a built-in Auspex, which are used to detect motion, invisible gases and energy emissions across a wide band of the electromagnetic spectrum. So on top of everything else that mask does, the Vindicare has the type of scanner that the Imperium uses to find hidden enemies.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I mean

the majority of what you described wont even come into play in this match so him having it really doesnt make a difference

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah as far as scanning tech goes the two may as well be equal, they both have what would be needed to find their target.

 

[Abstractions]

Honestly, Widowmaker's Infra-Sight doesn't really stand up to the Spy Mask, IMO.

It doesn't have to overall, it's just in this scenario Infra-Sight is much more useful as I've stated before.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

My point is with the Auspex is that, it's built to detect hidden troopes and enemies by triangulating their position. It gives him the higher propability of finding her before she finds him. This is on top of the fact that the Vindicare can shoot through any obstacle in his way due to the nature of his weapon. This is on top of his own level of skill, which I'd say is arguably higer than Widow's just by the dent on what it takes to be an Imperial Assassin. I'd say more but I need to get some rest.

 

[Abstractions]

My point is with the Auspex is that, it's built to detect hidden troopes and enemies by triangulating their position. It gives him the higher propability of finding her before she finds him. This is on top of the fact that the Vindicare can shoot through any obstacle in his way due to the nature of his weapon.

And my point was that Infra-Sight was an automatic immediate locator, that's how it functions.

What is the range on the Auspex? Because if Widow finds a good position before she hits its range, its motion tracking would have a harder time locating her.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

What is the range on the Auspex? Because if Widow finds a good position before she hits its range, its motion tracking would have a harder time locating her.

Ok, one last post, then bed.

Depends on the Auspex and the quailty. Standard ones given to rank and file are only around 50 meters, but higher grades can reasonably cover entire sections of a city. One Vindicare even had one built into his scope of his rifle so that he could detect lip movements and read them.

Auspexes also don't just detect motions but also the various energy emissions the body gives off, can tell if a being is pure flesh and blood or has cybernetic/mechnoid traits. Others include energy scanners to detect even the emissions given off by weapons or psychic phemonema.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Reviving this because reading through Ana's comic, Widowmaker was able to consistently avoid Ana in her prime, who had vision 6x greater than a normal human and 600x greater with her sniper rifle and was considered one of the best snipers in the world, to the point that she couldnt get a beat on her despite Widow constantly letting off shots, with Ana only getting a clear view of Widow because Widow basically stopped moving and let Ana see her.

Ana also believed that Widow alone was actually multiple snipers working from several different locations simultaneously

 

[ZellTemplar55]

Widowmaker FRA

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Don't really know if that'd be enough to shake a Vindicare. Their spy masks feed them a constant stream of extremely precise information, including the perfect position for their shot based on essentially everything, from enemy to specific environmental conditions. The information they process is supposed to be enough to overwhelm a member of the Adeptus Astartes, who will often demonstrate microsecond to nanosecond mental processing.

As impressive as Ana is, I don't think her vision and mental processing power really compare to a Space Marine, let alone a Vindicare assassin.

 

[Metalija]

Vindicare assassin hit a target that was on the moon. He oneshots Widow with zero difficulty.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Regardless of range, handing skill advantage to Vindicare. Widow is great in her own right but the Vindicare has some insane skill feats.