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SMT Revisions 2.0

Also, Nyarlathotep (Persona) needs to be completely redone since they are no justification for feats. It also should one of the strongest demon the entire verse with its level being at least 65. It should comparable to Vile Demon like Baal.


Devil Survivor 2
Nyarlathotep appears as the strongest member of the Vile race.

Devil Survivor Overclocked
"A god of the Cthulhu mythos. He came to Earth in ancient times from outer space and is known as the Crawling Chaos. He acts as a proxy to his masters such as Azathoth, who have no intelligence to make their desires manifest in our world. Because he can assume various forms, he is known as a faceless god. He is particularly known as the Haunter of the Dark, and he seems to have other guises on Earth as well."

—Devil Survivor Overclocked Compendium

Known as Nyalatotep. In the 8th day, God vs Hero, Nyarlathotep is one of Naoya's demons when he appears to help during the final battle against Okuninushi.
 
Baal is only Vile in MT1.

I would say Nyarly's tier is "at least 2-C" with the justification being that he's typically stronger than likes of Thor. Aside from that, it's uncertain.

EDIT: SMT Nyarly, not Persona Nyarly
 
Jaakuace44 said:
Baal is only Vile in MT1.
I would say Nyarly's tier is "at least 2-C" with the justification being that he's typically stronger than likes of Thor. Aside from that, it's uncertain.

EDIT: SMT Nyarly, not Persona Nyarly
Click to expand...
I agreed. I checked Baal profile and he is absurdly strong for a Deity. I think 2-C or At least 2-C is fine for now
 
I am really unsure about giving High-Godly Regenerationn to Kagutsuchi, considering that Lucifer explicitly says that after its destruction, the Cycle of Amala which it represents and administers is no longer possible, and is gone forever, implying that Kagutsuchi itself is dead for good too. He isn't like other Demons who consistently resurrect after being killed in previous games, like Mara and Lucifer.
 
I would think being tied to YHVH gives him some chance of returning.

I think just to be on the safe side, it would be better to list his regen as 'Mid-Godly, possibly High-Godly.'
 
I've noticed range with spells isn't terribly consistent. For example, 8-C Nanashi gets hundreds of meters on his spells while 8-A Demi-fiend gets just tens of meters when realistically, they should be getting roughly the same amount of range. Nanashi's Range stat also doesn't account for all of his tiers.
 
Yeah, they should have roughly the same Range with spells, I just never got around to updating the profiles.
 
Speaking of Tier 8s, I tried to propose this another time, but shouldn't most low tier demons be 8-C+ via being able to cast Zio, which is very similar to natural lighting?

I kind of got lost after the whole Lighting revisions, so the tier necessary to being able to tank them =/= the Tier necessary to be able to use them, and so on.
 
DMB 1 said:
Speaking of Tier 8s, I tried to propose this another time, but shouldn't most low tier demons be 8-C+ via being able to cast Zio, which is very similar to natural lighting?
I kind of got lost after the whole Lighting revisions, so the tier necessary to being able to tank them =/= the Tier necessary to be able to use them, and so on.
Click to expand...
I think this is fair
 
Ultima Reality said:
Yeah, they should have roughly the same Range with spells, I just never got around to updating the profiles.
Click to expand...
I think it should consistent
 
Jaakuace44 said:
On an unrelated note: Pixie could use an update. Her regen's still listed as Mid-Godly, it seems.
Click to expand...
I will fix it. Her last key should 2-A instead of 2-b, because the 2-B key scale to the archagel who were 2-B but now are update 2-A.
 
Jaakuace44 said:
I've noticed range with spells isn't terribly consistent. For example, 8-C Nanashi gets hundreds of meters on his spells while 8-A Demi-fiend gets just tens of meters when realistically, they should be getting roughly the same amount of range. Nanashi's Range stat also doesn't account for all of his tiers.
Click to expand...
Shouldn't the range be hundread of meters too? I can fix Nanashi's Range stat.
 
Be sure to add Chaos Manipulation to Demi-fiend as well if you haven't (can't very well be King of Chaos if you aren't able to manipulate the concept in some fashion).
 
Jaakuace44 said:
Be sure to add Chaos Manipulation to Demi-fiend as well if you haven't (can't very well be King of Chaos if you aren't able to manipulate the concept in some fashion).
Click to expand...
Chaos Manipulation is a really weird ability to quantified. It is usually associated with beings causing disorders with the law of physics. It can add it though.
 
To be fair, if you're going to add it to Neutral Hero and Aleph, it would stand to reason that Demi-fiend gets it too.

Sanat also has Chaos Manipulation listed on his page, so I figure it's only logical.
 
I don't think the Demi-Fiend can nullify the Demons' Regenerationn. Observation as a weaponized ability used to perma-kill them wasn't really a thing back in the times of Nocturne, and even in the Messiahs on the Diamond Realm DLC, Nanashi is portrayed as the only Messiah who can actively use his Observation.

This applies to Kazuya and Aleph too.
 
Jaakuace44 said:
To be fair, if you're going to add it to Neutral Hero and Aleph, it would stand to reason that Demi-fiend gets it too.
Sanat also has Chaos Manipulation listed on his page, so I figure it's only logical.
Click to expand...
I added them as resistance to demons' abilities.
 
Ultima Reality said:
I don't think the Demi-Fiend can nullify the Demons' Regenerationn. Observation as a weaponized ability used to perma-kill them wasn't really a thing back in the times of Nocturne, and even in the Messiahs on the Diamond Realm DLC, Nanashi is portrayed as the only Messiah who can actively use his Observation.
Click to expand...
Rip, if this is the case. So, Kagutsuchi (Shin Megami Tensei)'s regen goes back to Mid-godly?

Aleph and Flynn (Shin Megami Tensei) are listed as Messiah so they don't get as it well?
 
OH my bad. Must have misread that, I did.

As for the regen negation, I don't recall Nanashi being explicitly stated as the only one to be able to do so. That said, it is rather uncertain. I'd downgrade it to 'Mid-godly, possibly High-Godly,' just in case. He was able to negate Kagutsuchi's regen, at the very least.

I kind of have to wonder why Steven would even bother bringing back Demi-fiend just to beat Luci (well, I know WHY, but I mean in-lore).
 
About Mot and Anat? Mot can kill Baal and Anat his sister/wife kill mot and its an cycle

64px "The Mesopotamian god of death. He lives in the netherworld.
Mot lured the storm god Baal and killed him, but was in turn killed by Baal's sister Anat."
~ —Devil Summoner: Soul Hackers Compendium​
64px A Syrian goddess associated with love and sex. She's the sister and wife of the Canaanite deity Baal. She avenges her brother by killing Mot and bringing him back from the land of the dead. The continuous cycle signifies the changing of seasons.
"The goddess of birth and death. She is Baal's sister and wife.
It is said that even her father El in the heavens feared her power. She is known for bringing Baal back from the land of the dead by going there herself and defeating its ruler, Mot."
~ —Shin Megami Tensei IV Apocalypse compendium​
?
 
@Jaakuace

It isn't explicitly stated, but Stephen specifically chooses Nanashi to be the one to restore Kazuya to his former self using Observation, while the other Messiahs stay behind. I think that pretty clearly indicates that he is the only one capable of willingly using the power.
 
...Or, you know, because protag status was in his hands at the moment. Diamond Realm DLC wasn't the most well-baked in terms of writing (again, why bring Demi-fiend back just to fight Lucifer and MAYBE incapacitate YHVH? And how is Kazuya taking hits from actual singularities when he can't even tank a nuke? WHY DOESN'T DEMI-FIEND HAVE-- *cough, cough*)

...Anyhow! Not sure why Nanashi in particular would be the only one capable, aside from maybe the fact he was appointed as Godslayer (which, if that's all it really takes, why didn't anyone else do it by then?)
 
I am not particularly fond of dismissing aspects of the plot just because of "lolbadwriting", so I think that Nanashi being the one Messiah able to willingly use Observation among them is pretty reasonable, especially considering how, again, Observation as an active power which can be weaponized and used to perma-kill Demons wasn't really a thing before Apocalypse, so I'd rather not retroactively scale anything, much like how we don't suddenly upgrade SMT II Satan to 1-C based on his appearance in Apocalypse.
 
Well, if that's how the cookie crumbles.
Leaving the regen/regen negation listed as 'Mid-Godly, possibly High-Godly' would make it so retroactive scaling on that matter wouldn't be such an issue. While weaponized Observation is seemingly exclusive to Nanashi, the concept was also only recently introduced in Apocalypse to begin with, meaning the older games can't very well account for it without major plotholes cropping up (why only one Messiah was able to use it to such an effect, for instance).
 
Why only one Messiah was able to use it to such an effect, for instance - is a question, I always had since it meant Nanashi is likely a literal in the mary sue in the verse.
 
Jaakuace44 said:
Well, if that's how the cookie crumbles.
Leaving the regen/regen negation listed as 'Mid-Godly, possibly High-Godly' would make it so retroactive scaling on that matter wouldn't be such an issue. While weaponized Observation is seemingly exclusive to Nanashi, the concept was also only recently introduced in Apocalypse to begin with, meaning the older games can't very well account for it without major plotholes cropping up (why only one Messiah was able to use it to such an effect, for instance).
Click to expand...
Leaving the regen/regen negation listed as 'Mid-Godly, possibly High-Godly' might a good solution. Aleph, Protagonist (Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor), Demi-Fiend were confident in the abilities in going to war against YHVH.
 
It's also possible that Nanashi could only use Observation in such a way because he was the only one who knew how - or rather, because Stephen had taught him how to when he entered his dream, before the final dungeon. Stephen may have went through that whole trial in the Diamond Realm not just to bring the other Messiahs back from the brink, but to impart that knowledege to them by giving them a demonstration, having Nanashi fight him so that Kazuya may 'observe' their bout, while also having it so the other protags jump in just as Kazuya takes shape.

Then again, that's getting neck-deep into speculation and headcanon. Kazuya and Aleph sure as hell don't use Observation to that effect (then again, Kazuya might have just been for the demonstration, and Aleph... well... you know how Apoc is with retcons). Who even knows with Demi-fiend, honestly. Flynn went on to fight alongside Nanashi anyway, so. (shrug)
 
I may be wrong but why is Lucifer should be comparable to Satan in Devil Survivor 2 even if even afraid of him. With help, he was confident that he could fight YHVH who is At least High 2-A. "However, while Yamato acknowledges Hibiki, he refuses to give up in order to protect his dignity, summoning Nebiros and Zaou-Gonge, and using the fusion app to fuse them into Sata. Facing this new demon, Hibiki is easily outmatched, even with the power of the Dragon Stream, and appears to have been defeated before Black Frost suddenly appears to defend him. Hibiki receives demons from each of his friends. He uses the fusion app to create demon after demon until he eventually ends up with the fallen angel Lucifer. Both summoners engage in one final clash before a large explosion occurs. Hibiki is then seen holding Yamato's body moments before his death, saying that he doesn't need to shoulder everything alone anymore and they'll meet again. Polaris then appears from above as Hibiki asks for his wish."


 
I don't think the Demons summoned in DeSu2 are the real things, if I recall correctly, they are just materialized Data from the Akashic Records and are pretty much just Stands with no personality, save for a select few such as that group of Jack Frosts who mention the Demon World
 
Ultima Reality said:
I don't think the Demons summoned in DeSu2 are the real things, if I recall correctly, they are just materialized Data from the Akashic Records and are pretty much just Stands with no personality, save for a select few such as that group of Jack Frosts who mention the Demon World
Click to expand...
The app is more or less described as a demon summoning device. In "demon inquiry" and other events, Fumu described the summoning system to work similar to the "teleportation" terminal. The data part could be an allusion to the Administrators can control the world and view everything as data including its concepts from the Akashic Records.

https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Akashic_Record
 
Demons in SMT are materialized data to begin with. DDS is a prime example of this. In SMT IV, they show up as huge blobs of garbled information.

If I recall directly, in Strange Journey Redux, there's a Dantalion in the Womb of Grief who describes himself as "little more than data derived from the Great Will."

I can go and try to grab the screenshot, but I believe I've made my point anyway.
 
Jaakuace44 said:
Demons in SMT are materialized data to begin with. DDS is a prime example of this. In SMT IV, they show up as huge blobs of garbled information.
If I recall directly, in Strange Journey Redux, there's a Dantalion in the Womb of Grief who describes himself as "little more than data derived from the Great Will."

I can go and try to grab the screenshot, but I believe I've made my point anyway.
Click to expand...
We do have these for demons anyway:

(As a Demon, X is not a physical being, and is a thought-form made of pure information and data)

I would appreciate the scans for non-corpereal:

Demons are acausal in any case, so the multiverse rewrited won't affect them hence summoning is more possible.

Also, https://imgur.com/a/mRCh2fR
 
Likewise, https://imgur.com/a/LfS1w this looks like Type 5 Acausility instead of Type 4.

Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.

Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality transcend the normal boundaries of cause and effect, existing outside of the causality of a system. Even interacting with them normally may prove virtually impossible.

Their acausality should be Type 5 instead of Type 4 like I thought. I could apply the update.
 
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