SMITE tier revision

[ArkhamDC06]

Something weird. Jor is stated to exist from the dawn of time ("I was rendered into being at the great dawn, when time first began and all of creation took shape. Where before all was chaos, formless disorder and infinite, unending entrophy, I emerged", Chapter 4) but if it's true, how can he also be the son of Loki, one of the most recent gods to exist ?

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Actually the way he reacts to it, this Ragnarok energy thing seems new even to him. The event has happened before, but the weird energy thing had ti be bestowed to him. It's not something he pulls out of his giant scaley ass lol. He even acts like this power is new to him. So basically even in base he is capable of slaughtering pantheon heads. The big difference this time, besides Ragnarok power being in play, was Excalibur. Something he couldn't see coming, something MADE to stop him, where even the gods would fail. Keep in mind, Excalibur isn't just the power of one god, but MANY, crystalized into a singular form and forged into a blade capable of killing the world serpent.

We see gods like Olorun and The Morrigan be made up of multiple gods in one body. But Excalibur is the energies of many gods focused into one blade. Almost like the spirit sword attack from Dragon Ball Super. And it was the one thing shown to do any true damage to him. So basically Excalibur > Jormungandr >/= Olorun

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Also I think it's implied that the mortals may have included him in their legends as memory of his true nature was probably lost to the eons and they may have arbitrarily linked him to Loki. To the mortals, their stories, and maybe even the norse gods, he may be the "son of loki" but to a select few, like himself, the real truth is he is far older. Remember, Mortals create the gods subconsciously. So either they have some effect on Jormungandr to, or the link between him and Loki is flimsy at best

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Keep in mind, the place where Jormungandr had his original clash with Merlin in the last cycle is where Asgard is now. So legends and myths about him were likely spawned by mortals who witnessed him. And eventually he got tied into the story of Loki in those legends.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Mmh sound right and interesting. Though from what we know, Olorun and Chronos are still the top beings/things in the verse (and possibly with Ananke and Chaos).

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

You're forgetting a lot of other top beings in the other pantheons like Neith, Bondye (voodoo), Rod (Slavic), etc. But for all we know they could also just be beings formed from mortal minds like the rest. So it could be that Jormungandr does outrank them. Although my money is on chaos being the most supreme entity when we get to it. Although sometime this year there is supposed to be a destructive force that threatens all gods. We were suppised to get it last year hut they had to delay it. My money is on either Chaos, or Surtr. Surtr cause we have no fire giant yet, and the Ragnarok energy feels an awful lot like the fire giant boost in game. And who's the big bad boss of the fire giants? Surtr. He's the last of the Ragnarok group to. We have Jorm, Fenrir, Loki, and Hel, but Surtr is the missing piece. the destroyer who ends all things all things in norse myth. I feel his time is coming.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Surt sounds more likely to be the one who will appear because...well, Chaos isn't exactly a "true" being. Surt is a Fire Giant so he could be used as a counterpart for Ymir.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Huh. I just realized. Norse myth begins with the ice giant and ends with the fire giant. Surtr is likely gonna be this destroyer. And if Ragnarol energy comes from him, and its enough to not only allow Hades to use a small portion to start merging the realms of life and death, but also in its full power making Jormungandr even stronger than Excalibur, Surtr is likely to be WAAAAAY strong.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Well, by essence Surt should be immensly strong to be accurate with what he is in Norse Mythology.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

It's amusing how Norse myth begins with the frost giant Ymir and ends in flames with Surtr. Although I hope they move away from Greek and Norse soon. GreecoRoman gods have dominanted the lead character spot and Norse myth has dominated the theme of much of the story. Yggdrasil, Ragnarok, Fenrir, Hel, Loki, Jormungandr, the bifrost, etc. There has been slight deviations like with Olorun and Horus vs Set, but Greek/Roman and Norse has been a bit TOO prevalent. I hope Mulan changes that up a bit more.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Can't complain about it, Norse and Greek are my favorite myths lol. Btw, i would like to see the end of some fights like against Set.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

I mean...We did see Set kill Osiris, and troll Horus in his first showing.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Fun fact: something most might miss is the pictures that go with the introduction of Set and Horus show an Osiris who's already scarred up. This means this is likely his second time dying by his brother. Except this time, instead of being cut up and sending Isis on a scavenger hunt, Set just kills him flat out. Osiris just can't catch a break huh?

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Seems so lol.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

I'm still debating on the events of the "2017 Odyssey" and if it's canon or not. It was made after the comic yes. But was also BEFORE Hi-Rez made this big push for emphasis on story events. Some events, if canon, would have VERY wonky timeline placement, yet a few do line up with the rest kf the story. In Falm of War, we hear about Anubis having a fight with Camazotz. And in "2017 Odyssey" we see that exact fight go down. So...point for canonicity there, but other events seem off and aren't mentiones by anyone. Characters like Thor never mention having been manipulated by The Morrigan or being saved by Susano'o. But then back to the could be canon section, we see Hades on the throne of Olympus, which, yes, he WOULD be on the throne at this point in time. But then going back, we see a NOT DEAD Ao Kuang causing havoc via Morrigan manipulation. But...he died in the comic and has been treated as dead up until recently with his revival. So I'm not sure how canon this storyline is. I mean hell, it wouls be cool for it to be, cause it actually gives us some action involving Arachne and Scylla.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Granted...said action was against Susano'o who is a pantheon head tier god, given his VERY close relation to Amaterasu. So he kind of wrecked them both. Scylla, for her part was able to keep pace with him before being one shotted back into the ocean. And Arachne's webs were strong enough to cause even Susano'o trouble...before he yanked back hard enough to pull the poor spider lady right into a fist aimed for her jaw. But this IS the man who killed Orochi so I'm not too shocked.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Don't know what to think about it lol. Though i like they actualluy gave Morrigan a bigger role than simply being mentionned or being a playable character. Though i wish she had more abilities as a Goddess of Magic. Btw, do we know when Odin will have his redbuild ?

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Sometime next year, same for Bastet and Ratatoskr. And yeah she some weird abilities and illusions in the story. Was pretty interesting. So while I'm not fully sure on its canonicity, it does have stuff worth potentially looking at.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Fenrir is stronger. Before he was unable to break the chains, he was able to do so by Ragnarok. We have confirmation that Ragnarok energy is linked to creatures that are related to Ragnarok, something Fenrir invariably is. Let's not get pedantic. Susano'o isn't a pantheon head tier either, and I'm not sure how to interpret his lore. Dude got sent to earth as punishment where he fought and struggled against a theoretically mortal creature.

So I'm not sure I'd be using Susanoo to defend super solid scaling ties, all things considered.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Again, that's not what happened. First of all, the chains were made specifically to bind him. They needed to he broken by a particularly powerful artifact like the mystic cudgel of wukong or Zeus' lightning bolt, which Hel got hols of one and did the deed. Ragnarok itself didn't free him.

Also the energy of Ragnarok's qualities have never been fully stated nor has that statement of their connection to Fenrir. The stort never says anything about him getting stronger from it. In fact the only time he grows visibly stronger is through his own ability to grow in size, which he uses against Thor.

And first off, if we are treating Hades and Poseidon as a similar tier to their brother Zeus, isn't it only fare other pantheon head siblings, like Susano'o, get that same treatment?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

We aren't inherently treating Hades and Poseidon as equal to Zeus. Since Zeus is the strongest among them and every god is possibly Low 2-C anyways.

Susano'o, even outside of this fact, was sent to the mortal world as a punishment on his transit to the underworld. So like... he isn't even inherently a god tier anymore anyways.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

I could have sworn that was an understanding we had come to that the brothers were pretty close to him in power. Huh.

Also the punishment didnt take amy power from him though. If anything, its like a child misbehaved, so his dad, Izanagi, sent him to a god tier time out lol. Nothing implies he grew weaker from it, and putting a kid in time out doesn't make the kid any weaker. If anything else, you could also say it was like he got kicked out of the heavens, not unlike someone getting kicked from their home/apartment for being a jackass. Which Susano'o certainly was.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean. I'd argue that having to trap a mortal creature was an implication of not really being equatable to the mightiest gods around anymore. Which was more the point of my post. But okay.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

I'm kind of willing to consider Hades and Poseidon to be comparable to Zeus even if weaker.

The Ragnarök obviously has an effect on Fenrir, as he is linked to it in a very specific way so yes, he gets stronger with it.

And while i'm not really interested to Susanoo, he isn't a pantheon leader and doesn't seem to be a superior god on the same rank than Hades and Poseidon so regular god tier for him is fine to me.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

On the note of Susano'o: The inverse of your point Bambu isalso just as likely, that Orochi is simply VERY strong for a non-god, like how Cerberus is capable of matching Hercules or Olorun in battle. Some "non-gods" Are much stronger than others and should be viewd case by case. I mean...Look at Scylla. Smashes boats and eats people....vs Cerberus who has several fights against legitimate gods under his belt. Then we have gisnt 8 headed dragon monster who eas known to be feard by the gods. A being who had to be tricked into a passive state before being killed. Plus, Amaterasu, Tsukoyomi, and Susano'o are a trio of god siblings not that dissimilar to the Greek trio. And Amaterasu, and Tsukoyomi back when he was her husband, ruled the pantheon, seriously whats with gods and incest, lol. If two of them are pantheon head material, Susano'o is more than likely not that far behind. Of course the greek trio is likely just a LITTLE stronger since the verse treated Zeus as the KING of the gods in general and even Ra and Odin respected that point. So I'd say ita fair to argue Susano'o as among that upper tier. And before you bother to knock me for using some irl myth material in reference to Tsukoyomi....he is literally coming out this year, so pretty sure implying him is fair game.

As for Fenrir: again, nothing is ever stated about it outright making him stronger during Ragnarok. Yes his ultimate is NAMED ragnarok, but its just an ability name of a creature with natural size shifting abilities. But yeah. His lore, the comic, and even the events like Hera's Odyssey, points where he played major roles in, never once state him to have a drastic boost during this time. Especially considering that, by Hera's Odyssey, all the Ragnarok energy, yes ALL of it, was shoved into the earth by Pele when she ripped what Hades had of it from him, and gathered the rest from across the globe and shoved it into a fissure. The story even states that it was all of it, so Fenrir couldn't have had any of it in him. And his lore outright states him to be an Odin killer, if given the chance. And it did take the combined efforts of Thor and Argus ro bring him down, with Thor shattering his teeth, which, as someone who knows what a broken tooth is like....kind if made me flinch from the thought of it lol.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Orochi isn't introduced as this very strong creature. The default is that he's a mortal creature, since he's expressly encountered in the Earth realm. Cerberus also is a divine creature, and comes from the Underworld. Tsuko isn't inherently head of pantheon level either. Since I wouldn't consider Hera to be Zeus' equal. So neither is Susano'o.

Named Ragnarok. Does the thing Ragnarok energy did to Jorm (makes him bigger and stronger). Looks like a duck, acts like a duck, sounds like a duck, it's probavbly a duck.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

My point is that, as Ark also agreed, Hades and Poseidon are likely close to Zeus in power. And Tuskoyomi and Susano'o, in that same regard, are just as likely to be close in power to their own pantheon head sibling. Just seems like a logical argument to make.

As for thy ability, ability names and ability functions are two different things. Or is Boros' collapsing star roaring canon star buster just cause it has star in the name? Or is the Big Bang Attack universe level cause it has Big Bang in the name? Besides, Hades never changed size, and Jorm, like Fenrir, is also shown to have a level of size changing natural to him. And besides, Fenrir was never given a Ragnarok Skin. A skin thats given to those who have had that form in canon.....and Hera. Cause idk why they have one to her of all characters when it never happened in story. Also, if you wanted to argue "he was all glowy with a fiery essence" he was like that when he was chained up. Also going back to size changing, the Ragnarok energy increased the base size of Jormungandr. But he can change his own size at will. And what Fenrir does is by his own will, and he doesn't have sone dramatic change in his form like Jormungandr or Hades.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Also any word from our friend?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Aarkam was willing to see them comparable... but weaker. Given that everybody is already "possibly Low 2-C", this doesn't change their ratings. And no, it doesn't. Siblings are not inherently created equally. Furthermore I'm not speaking of Susano'o when in the heavens or whatever, I'm speaking expressly about what he does when he was cast out and on transit to the Underworld. It also doesn't help that Amaterasu ostensibly isn't the one in control of the Japanese pantheon, her father is.

True. But I'm not saying it's anything other than an implication supported by other stuff. I really don't care so hey, why not, let's consider him weaker. Doesn't matter to me at this point.

Perp responded but he seemed upset, seems like he has finals stuff still. If he doesn't respond by tomorrow night we can make this official and finish these revisions.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Actually...and I HAVE to apply mythology for this, she IS in control. We know this cause of her sacred treasures. The magatama bead she has was passed to her from her father when giving her control. The very bead she has is a symbol of that. Heck, even her sword is something she would, in the future, pass onto her decendant as the ruler of Japan. She as of right now is THE head god with contextual evidence in game pointing to that fact. Doesn't mean Izanagi is gone of course, but Amaterasu is the current big boss. And I did say that they were weaker. Susano'o is likely comparable but weaker to her in the same way Zeus' brothers are to him. Plus, again, nothing is stated about Susano'o having gotten weaker. Nothing says he had any power stripped from him. Even if that was the case in mythology, which even then I doubt it was, it has no context here in the way Amaterasu being pantheon head does.

I'm not saying he is weaker though. His lore flat out lables him an Odin killer, and nothing supoorts that Ragnarok arbitrarily made him stronger. So...he's just odin tier.

And I hope you know, I know we still have a solid idea of the tier system, I'm just training to nail some finer points. Refine it a little if that makes sense. I'm not arguing for the sake of it, just giving some thought and discussion on some points that could effect how the gods are viewed. Especially since I've, admittedly, spent waaaaaaay too much time with this verse lol. Just think abit of discussion on those fine details is not only healthy for the verse, but also helps refine our new found system.

Also damn, hope things go well for him.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

I know the facts about Amaterasu from Gaijin Goombah. A very excellent youtuber who studies cultures and mythologies across the world, with a japanese focus as he lived Japan for many years as a teacher, and he did a study on Amaterasu in smite. He also did Raijin to, but we aren't discussing him lol. Even outside of this I'd recommend giving him a watch. Very educational.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You don't have to apply mythology. Because this departs from mythology. It doesn't really matter to me, since I am in the camp of Amaterasu being Low 2-C anyways. I'm merely pointing out flaws in your arguments. Susano'o has no reason to be considered outright Low 2-C, is the idea.

I'm also working on finer points, even though I don't think I'll be adding any pages (except maybe Artemis since she's my first main).

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Well let's agree to disagree then I guess. Cause I feel given how we have Poseidon and Hades as lesser but close to Zeus, same should logically apply to Susano'o. Plus your own arguments aren't without their own flaws. Like implying odd downgrades and upgrades where neither was implied in lore or the story. And true while it does depart from mythology in SOME manners, it's still heavily based on and themed around it. I see using mythology for smite more as supporting evidence/supporting argument or to be used for context where smite might skip over things. Like the "astral arrows" Rama has. Why they just danced around calling it the Brahmastra is beyond me when his special arrows literally are that. Heck, even the blurb about him in the magazine, the "who is this god" sections being the only material I'd ever use from the magazines as they actually give context to things and aren't random ass mini stories, make mention of this powerful weapon. You just have to be careful not to use the mythology as a crutch to base the entire argument around, that is something I'm sure we can both agree on. But that's my thoughts. I mean...Smite can only cram in so much into a few paragraphs, audio lines, and abilities, that somethings don't get much attention despite kind of being very important in a lot of cases. That's sadly a flaw the verse has.

Also dude, same. She was my first god I used ever in the game to. You got good taste! Granted my first game with her was....garbage to say the least lol. I got owned horribly. But it was also my first game in general soooo....

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Lesser but close is what we have all gods as right now. "At least High 4-C, possibly Low 2-C".

Yeah I got ****** on pretty hard to begin with on Artemis, nowadays I try to space it out with characters. Skadi, Ra, and Bellona are my first picks.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Touche. Although I am curious as to your thoughts on my "mythology as a supoorting argument or for additional context only" view. Cause in some cases there ia next to no context with this verse. Like Achilles. "Gift ofnthe gods!" Is his passive. But the game says NOTHING about Vulcan being the one whk crafted that armor and shield. Or again, Rama's arrows.

Admittedly im not the best with many close range characters except guardians and a FEW warriors or assassins. I typically prefer mages and hunters. Discordia is just the BEST to troll entire teams with. That Ult makes me die every time from laughter. If you haven't used her, go into Arena, get into a big team fight and throw her ult and watch the hilarity. Its the best! XD

 

[ThePerpetual]

(I will not really be able to get back to this in a satisfactory way within the time frame given to me, what with Finals Week and all.)

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

(I will not really be able to get back to this in a satisfactory way within the time frame given to me, what with Finals Week and all.)

Hey man, it's understandable. School can be a stressful *****. Just do what you can, we can settle things here.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

We just really can't unless the implications are already heavily there, in which case we can use the game itself. SMITE =/= Mythology. It's loosely based on Mythology but that comes with tons of addendums and caveats.

And yeah, a friend mains Discordia/Hera. I played strictly Hunters for like the first few months of SMITE gameplay, then shifted into my current characters.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Idk I find it helps in SOME situations. Granted they are specific situations and as stated, I'll never base my main arguments on mythology. Smite story and lore and THEN mythology if applicable. Which admittedly is in very few instances. Like Rama. Granted Smite's Brahmastra is...definitely not AS insane as the mythology version. Think of the smite version as...a rapid fire charged shot from Megaman or Samus. The mythology version? Depending on what you focus on, you have universal attack pot3that can destroy everything from the universe itself to far more condenced localized areas, and wherever is strikes, no new life xan grow and things become infertile. It's literally a GOD NUKE in the form of an arrow. The Smite version....is lacking to say the least. So while I may reference mythology for small details or context to add support to my points... I can't in good conscious give Rama THAT version of the arrows....even if its the far more badass and powerful version.

Hera is awesome. I love the interplay between her and Argus. Its very satisfying to gang up 2 vs 1 on someone with him. Small question...is Argus getting jis own profile...or is he ginna be treated as a summon or tool for Hera? And if that's the case will he get his own power key if they they share a page? Cause both have DRASTICALLY different strengths and weaknesses.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

So to me, Hades and Poseidon can be put at "At least High 4-C, possibly Low 2-C". They are somehow comparable to Zeus but rather weak. At least when Hades is not Ragnarok-amped. Also, i agree with Bambu, we can't use mythology when the game doesn't support it. Though i still have some issues with not counting the Primordials stuff but still.

As hurry as i am to finally end this, if Perp has finals and school issues, it's understandable that he didn't answer immediatly. Especially since i have some myself lol.

I haven't played for some time now but personally, my favorite characters are Ares, Chernobog, Set and Bellona. I also like Hades.