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SMITE tier revision

Well he's definitely extremely powerful and a very important deity but he doesn't seem to scale to Pantheon Leaders. Loki might have killed Zeus but he cannot be truly compared to Zeus in terms of raw might so Heimdallr might not be comparable to gods like Zeus. As for Persephone and Hera, they're very strong (though Hera should be stronger) but they're obviously weaker than their husband.

Nevertheless, i really appreciate how they're portraying Hades and Persephone. And yeah, Heimdallr's fight was really cool and he's really stronger than her. And his control over the Bifrost makes him a really versatile combattant. I'm definitely working on him.

I also note that Yemoja could have Astral Projection.

Then again, we'll have to wait for Bambu's final word.
 
I'm just throwing in the Loki bit as supporting evidence. If Heimdallr is supposed to hold such a major and important role, and I was Odin, I'd probably make sure he was well above the average god. Sure maybe NOT AS strong as myself, but strong enough to deter most foes if necessary. And to be fair, Persephone's plants and minions gave Hera, Olorun, Argus, Horus, and Samedi one hell if a time and she was far away at that point. She's clearly a lot more vicious in direct combat given how much Heimdallr had to give. And yeah, he is stronger physically, and a bit faster to, but her plant manipulation and necromancy more than made up or that gap.

And I'd say both he and Persephone are versatile as hell. Though question. Ratatoskr hijacked his own god reveal trailer. Should he have 4th wall breaking abilities on the wiki?

True. At least the compromise allows us to use both our scalings even if we disagree on the exact power of the gods. Personally I'm still sticking to my scaling, which is why I'm more than happy I still have that option.
 
My idea is that both Hera and Persephone are at high-level of regular gods even if not comparable to their husbands. They're still "At least High 4-C, possibly Low 2-C" but to a higher degree. Persephoen was impressive nonethless, especially in the sense that she revealed herself as being at least rather capable with a sword, though she wasn't a match for Heimdallr in the end. I would say that Persephone is what TV Tropes call a Squishy Wizard (she is rather weak or at least less skilled physically than other gods but very powerful with Magic) and she clearly knows how to use her powers in a very versatile way. Note that her plants and her dead soldiers are not necessarily an indication of HER power, they're different beings so you can't really compare her to other gods if she isn't the one who directly put the fight against them.

Not sure. If it is only a trailer thing for fun, then no i don't think but if it's clearly established he can do that sort of things (like in gameplay or story wise), then yes. He's likely very special thanks to his particular connection with Yggdrasil apparently.

The good news is Bambu said he was ok with this tier so this will likely be over soon.
 
I'd argue Hera is. Remember...we basically came to an understanding that Hades and Poseidon aren't far behind Zeus yeah? Well...Hera? Is also among that groul of siblings. As incestuous as that is, but thats greel gods for you. So I'd argue she has every right to be counted among that group in power.

As for your argument of Persephone and her power...isn't it logical that her power is channeled INTO her plants and summons? Like Poseidon or Zeus channeling their raw magical power through their elements. Water alone isn't as strong as a god. But under the control of one, it totally can be. It's likely the gods like Persephone fuse their power into their plants to make them capable of attacking and restraining gods. The skeletons are brought back via her power, and held together with her plants. Likely yeah they aren't as strong as her individually....but in numbers? Even a tree or boulder eventually gives up against the force if a river, so to would many gods find her hoard of skeletons, plants, and skeletal plant abominations difficult to deal with. And even if you don't wanna give her that courtesy for her minions, her plant manipulation with HER own power you definitely can. She and her plants were shown to be a VERY solid match against Heimdallr. Yeah, he won, but look at how brutalized and tired he was. Her elemental magic over plants and her swarms of undead are very formidable. That's part of what elemental magic is, making your element as powerful as your magical output, and then bending it to your will. Yggdrasil being a different case as it's a force of its own. And same can go for necromancy.

Then again he only had one small moment in the story so far. I'll have to see if his in game voice lines make any note of that. Although he did manage to shake the screen a bit and talk with lore lady in his trailer. So maybe it's not AS good at 4th wall shattering as Deadpool is for example.

And very true.
 
It's scaling mixed with FEATS and LORE. You need feats and lore tk even have proper scaling in the first place. Besides, a good number of us seem fine with the compromise, so YOU don't have to use the low 2-C for any of the non-pantheon heads. But it still gives someone like ME the option to use them as such. I'm fine with the compromise and I'm one of THE low 2-C scaling guys for the verse atm, cause it gives both sides soemthing to work with and ends the over a month debates on a good note. So please, just let it end on a good note for us.
 
Gaara Don't get me wrong, she definitely scales. It's just that to me, she's definitely weaker than her husband. And in any case, even if it's your magic than summon dead soldiers to fight, if you defeat your enemies via corpses, the corpses will be the one to take down your foe. But as said before, she is definitely impressive.

When i said versatile about Heimdallr, i meant that he has various and multiple abilities, including attack abilities. It's what i like about magic gods like Isis, Merlin or Thoth or gods like Chernobog or Set, they have more abilities than simple uses of their elements.

Also, it's clear i'll make a profile for Heimdallr, i just love his powers.
 
Oh I get that. I'm just stating that, given our view of Poseidon and Hades, she is among the tops of her pantheon. And pretty sure it was her vines at the end that was the biggest hurdle for Heimdallr. As you can tell, as he struggled harder, so did she. It was her magic against his physical power in that moment, and it took what he had left to break free. Her hoard wasn't the big hurdle for him, but she herself. Her surprising skill with a blade, her mobility across the battle field, helped by her plants, and her raw connection to the nature around them made her a powerful foe in her own right. She was actually able to trade blows with the man in melee combat, and hell, at one point deflected his lade with her BARE HAND. I'm just trying to make sure Persephone and her physical and magical capabilities are given proper credit lol.

And I'm not knocking his versatility any. More just saying Persephone is not just a simple plant user. And her plant alone had a fair amount of versatility to them.

And agreed. He has a very well rounded set of abilities. It's like of you took Taskmaster, gave him the most insane senses of seight and hearing, allowed him to pull weapons out of thin air, gave him a 6th sense for enemies like Naruto, combative foresight, and much much more.
 
You can politely remind him via his message wall if he does not reply in a while.
 
Yeah, we'll wait anyway. He didn't take much time to answer about the tier so hopefully he won't take much time for this one. No need to harass him.
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
Matthew Schroeder "At least High 4-C, possibly Low 2-C" is a good compromise from what we know.
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Maybe for the Top Gods as Orolun is stated to be as powerful as they were on their peaks.

Not everyone tho.
 
This has been approved and aside from waiting from Bambu's final word and some minor issues about some characters like Merlin, there is nothing left to discuss.

Hopefully, Bambu will soon answer this and this will be finally over.
 
Gaaraofthedesert801 said:
Sub gods? You mean like Arthur with Excalibur? Or are you refering to Thor? Cause Thor DID fight Jorm, but Jorm had a massive boost from the power of Ragnarok and even base Jorm is said to be a suicidal double death fight for Thor. And Arthur ripped Jorm a new one with Excalibur.
Click to expand...
Arthur is a mortal. When I say sub gods, I refer to those who simply are not divine but are still present. Achilles, Cabrakan, Bakasura, Medusa, and so on.

As for Low 2C, yes, it is indeed just scaling and nothing more. However it is left as a possibly, which means it isn't meant to be solid. Gods being High 4C, possibly Low 2C is possibly the best compromise we will get out of this. If we scale sub gods to Cabrakan at 7A then we're practically finished.

I think Gaara needs to calm down a tad and listen more calmly to Matt's side, but in my opinion this is a relatively acceptable outcome.
 
Thanks. So that means we just have to decide about the sub gods (mortals and monsters) and we're finished ? Or we can at least start to edit the current profiles and make some new ? Scaling from Cabrakan, that would give us "7-A, likely much higher" but i would propose to add a "At least" if that's ok. I would also like to say JOrmmungandr, while being a monster...technically, should be put at the same tier as regular gods due to his status in the lore and in the story.

Gaara I think Bambu is...kind of right. I understand you're tired of this (we all are) especially since you seems to really love this verse but being angry won't help. And besides the compromise has been acepted so that means
 
But...it's NOT just scaling alone...I've used lore, logic, fights, feats, AND scaling as a whole. All of which has focused around the CANON lore of the verse. I don't get this "its only scaling" argument.

And I'm only frustrated with his "nope he's wrong delete the verse" attitude without any counter arguments while ive stressed MY arguments to the point of my own frustration over and over this past month.
 
Jorm is a divine being, a child of a god. As are Fenrir and Hel. Both of them should scale, as well as Jorm. I'm speaking of totally and completely non divine creatures for the 7A key. I'm fine with At least 7A, possibly higher.

Gaara, I'd rather not have a back and forth over something unrelated when we're so close to the end of this.
 
Plus I can make a FEW arguments for a FEW of the "sub gods".

Arthur: Been over this one too much. With Excalibur he is DEFINITELY god tier.

Achilles: He, like Arthur, has divine equipment. Armor and shield forged by vulcan, and spear forged by his trainer Chiron, the same person who trained hercules. Being dipped in the river Styx made him durable to the point smite states the gods fear a man they can't harm, meaning his durability is likely higher than most gods power outputs. Plus even in myth he never used his full power as he often fought basic humans and was often cocky. And look at other demigods, Hercules, Erlang Shen, and even Rama are capable of god tier power. Speaking of Rama...

Rama: He, like a certain dwarf, is the avatar of Vishnu. But he also weilds the infamous Brahamastra, a set of arrows summoned via a chant, shown in his game as his astral arrows. These weapons were not only capable of wiping out the universe if the user so wanted, but where the one thing needed to KILL Ravana in mythology. Speaking of Ravana....

Ravana, his brother, and Bakasura: In hindu mythology demons often were as powerful as various gods. Ravana ESPECIALLY so as well as his brother. Bakasura also fought a man who was basically hindu hercules. Looking at mythology for some context, that man fought Indra. Indra being the equivalent ot Zeus in hindu myth and the bother of Agni. And Ravana was blessed by Shiva, a definite high tier as he and his trio are the ones in hindu myth responsible for the creation, destruction, and maintenance of the universe, with invulnerability against divine and demonic beings.

Erlang Shen: demi-god infamous for his defeat of Sun Wukong, and should scale to the monkey king.

Kuzenbo: while idk if this is the case in smite, often the difference between a Yokai and a Kami, gods, were their relationship and disposition to mortals. Kappa were known full well for riding both sides of that line, and Kuzenbo is their king.

Cerberus: story and lore feats definitely put him in that god tier range.

Hercules: has both wrestled and fought Hades on several occasions as well as his fight with Cerberus.

Cu Chulainn: Clashed with The Morrigan and defeated her in his lore. And she is THREE goddesses in one body.

Also we should WAIT to rank "sub gods" to some extent as we don't know the full effects of what Persephone did to Yggdrasil and her plan was to swap things around for gods and mortals. Plus with MULAN coming out, and Baba Yaga, we dont know if she is just a witch or if the goddess version of her is used, things may not be so simple.
 
Arthur: Still contentious.

Achilles: Not really any reason to be higher at all. Herc and Chiron both don't have any reason to be higher, either, though Herc probably has other stuff. Achilles just has Invulnerability.

Rama: I mean. Okay? But I didn't suggest Vishnu's avatars weren't God level. Since in Hindu mythology they just ARE gods. Ignoring the bit about Bakasura and such since it relies on real life mythology and you should frankly know why we don't use that here.

Erlanger Shen and Sun Wukong don't have god tier feats, do they? I have never played either so could be wrong.

No. Real. Life. Mythology. Can't say that enough, stop bringing it up.

I can look into Cu.

No. That's stupid. If we wait for every update to finish then we may as well wait for the game to die off to ensure no more updates ever come out. We do this now or we don't and at this point with this much stonewalling I don't really care which.
 
Why are we giving Gaara any time of day. He's the reason this isn't getting nowhere in the first place. I'm sorry but being "nice" here is just being detrimental.
 
How is Arthur contentious? Just curious.

I guess that's fair. Just figured it should be mentioned that perhaps his equipment could be considered god tier.

Well Ravana and his brother can be argued for considering they DID threaten the gods for the most part.

As for Kuzenbo and Bakasura, just felt like SOMETHING could be argued for them. I only use real myth for context or supporting evidence. Not as the full argument. But I'll concede there.

As for Cu, his lore directly mentions a fight with the Morrigan. A fight that also took place in mythology.

Oh amd for Erlang Shen and Wukong, Wukong was made into a Buddha, which basically makes him a divine being. And he has fought gods in the story. And Erlang Shen directly fought him in combat.

And actually I only suggested waiting on the non gods a bit cause Mulan is like, literally a patch or two away. She's THE next got and Baba Yaga after her. But I guess we can update them accordingly.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Why are we giving Gaara any time of day. He's the reason this isn't getting nowhere in the first place. I'm sorry but being "nice" here is just being detrimental.
Click to expand...
I can ask the same for you. I'm at least TRYING to give constructive criticism and input. Im not the one spout out that we should delete rhe verse, and claiming people are wrong without ANY counter argument. In terms of the verse, I have been here giving evidence, scalings, counter arguments and so on, trying to help scale these gods to a proper level and have conceded to a compromise. If its MY fault you think this has dragged on, I apologize, but at least I'm contributing.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Why are we giving Gaara any time of day. He's the reason this isn't getting nowhere in the first place. I'm sorry but being "nice" here is just being detrimental.
Click to expand...
Suggesting we delete a verse is similarly a lack of progress. Both of you have stalled this into the dirt but we're close.

I'll respond to the rest of this (if I remember) following my shift. Night lads.
 
Suggesting we delete a verse is similarly a lack of progress. Both of you have stalled this into the dirt but we're close.

I'll respond to the rest of this (if I remember) following my shift. Night lads.

Ok. Ttyl my dude. And for what its worth, if you feel I stalled things, then I apologize. Twas not my intent. Just wanted to see a verse I love and its characters get the proper treatment. If that means I stalled things then all I can do is apologize for it.
 
Suggesting we delete a verse is similarly a lack of progress. Both of you have stalled this into the dirt but we're close.

I'll respond to the rest of this (if I remember) following my shift. Night lads.

Mr. Bambu seems to make sense here. Thank you for helping out.
 
I'm fine with Arthur being only Tier 7. The thing with him is that has Excalibur so yeah, he can fight the gods...except that's precisely the reason for why he can't scale to me. He HAS Excalibur, wich means it's the sword's power, not his, that allows him to perform such feats.

The only thing that can bother me is Merlin, who is stated to be one of the oldest and strongest gods
 
Perhaps we can list him as "low 2-C WITH Excalibur"? Cause it's kind of hard to seperate him and his infamous sword. So you could make note on his page just how powerful the sword ITSELF is? and we can edit it later if anything major happens with him.
 
Don't think so. However, can still put him to "At least 7-A, possibly much higher, much higher with Excalibur". And we can also make a specific page for Excalibur itself if there is enough stuff to say about its power. Or we can simply make a list of Excalibur's powers in Arthur's special abilities. Besides, i must admit Arthur doesn't really interest me so i'm not gonna make a profile for him (as i said before, i'm interested into Bellona, Chernobog, Set, Ah Puch, Kukulkan, Merlin and recently Heimdallr and possibly Loki, Izanami and Pele and all their profiles are ready aside from minor elements to modify or add).
 
But that ranking makes no sense when 1: The sword carved up friggin Jormungandr, and 2: was forged by Merlin using the essences of who knows how many gods that the big snake murdered. It's basically an OP blade made of dead gods that cut open a gaping wound in the chest of a pantheon murdering serpent. Merlin made it SPECIFICALLY for that purpose to.

Speaking of Merlin and Arthur, I hope they eventually add Morgan Le Fay. Just as long as they can distinguish her from The Morrigan.
 
Again, the thing is it's the swords that gives its power to Arthur. Without it, he would still be a very powerful skilled warrior but he couldn't stand against the gods. It's the same thing than Loki with the Lightning Bolt. It's the weapon that makes him capable of such feats.

I hope so to. They put Arthur and Merlin so i think they will put her to in the future, she is more or less as famous and legendary as they are and is a key figure for the Arthurian mythos.
 
Which is why I suggest making part of his tiering the swords power. List his power without the sword and his power with the sword. Or at least mention HOW powerful the sword is in contrast with himself. Not that anyone is likely to use him for a vs battle without the sword, but you get my point.

And not to mention that gives them an excuse to dip their toes into crazy fae lore with not one but two pantheons, cause celtic stuff.

I don't see why not.
 
Well, it's obvious the sword's power should be mentionned in his profile of course.

Well i would still want a definitive confirmation from Bambu to know if everything is ok in general.
 
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