Smite Revisions?

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

But the pantheon war comic is canon to the game lore. I wouldn't personally disregard it when the smite game's story is literally a continuation of that specific comic.

The modernism was NOT about the speed itself but the fact that you are trying to put old world values into a verse that clearly has new world values thrown into it. Again, look at Sol. Medusa. In myth Medusa wasnt a giant snake lady. My point was take some things from the true myth with a grain of salt, like "they didn't have the same understanding of time as we do". And as I also said, the contradiction is sort of invalid given that, according to the legend of camelot plotline, the gods were formed from human thought and desire. Whether all their stories are true matters not when they were MADE to be capable of doing those things.

Also I'm sorry for not giving the feats properly, but my day has been hectic while also trying to help with a verse I care for. When I get some time I'll try and give you the feats proper ok? I was just hoping maybe to avoid trying to do that and work on some irl issues at the same time. So I apologize on that front.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Is there any progress going on?

I find the argument about mythical cosmologies to be quite silly when the Earth has been depicted as a realistic globe many times throughout SMITE, and we have the "Galaxy-spanning" Yggdrasil among other elements that point to a realistic universe.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

And the Cerberus downplay. He used MORE than poison. He used brute force to push and pin down the new god king. Yet all he is focused on is poison. Yes poison is dura negation. But that doesn't remove the physical bullying of Olorun.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

> The modernism was NOT about the speed itself but the fact that you are trying to put old world values into a verse that clearly has new world values thrown into it.

> Back to speed, remember this is a game world made by a modern civilization.

Also what? I didn't try anything like that lol. I am not working with the actual real world mythologies, I'm working with what the game itself says, I've said that multiple times already.

As for Cerberus, it isn't downplay to look at it and say "hm, Olorun got poisoned and was then overpowered, clearly Cerberus is weakening him since that's both a million times more likely than everybody is Low 2-C and also accounts for how poison works".

If you have nothing new to say then I'm for putting through revisions now.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Even though Olorun had to, BEFORE getting poisoned, catch Cerberus' jaw and keep himself from being bitten. Again, showing Olorun was taking the power of Cerberus seriously.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

And whatever. I don't have the time to argue atm so just do whatever. Even though I also said if you gave me some time to ******* finish work, I'd give you the stuff you needed. And ignoring other entire points to focus on a few that requires those other points to make sense and thus cherry picking what I said. But whateves.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Matthew Shroeder Looks like Bambu's system is going to be applied. But if Gaara can show his stuff, i'd suggest we let him some time though i hope it won't take days for it, i wish to end this now so we can edit the current profiles and add more. But again, if Gaara has something, we should let him explain.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

I tried. I linked all the stories that are fillednwith feats and scaling. But, here we go. Links to the stories are above.

Pantheon War: Hades and Anubis fight over some souls. Ares and Athena spar to a draw. Loki, Ao Kuang, and Hel murder Zeus. Ares raids egypt, kills Anhur and brutally beats Ra down. Loki, having stolen Zeus' thunder bolt, stomps Hel, and fights a three vs one fight against Neith, Aphrodite, and Mercury and kills mercury in the scuffle. Hel kills Ao Kuang, bringing his castle down on top of him. Hel fights Sun Wukong while Loki fights Thor and Athena.

Fall of war: Anubis is mentioned to have fought Camazotz. Ares murders Chaac, frees Izanami, uses Chaac's axe to stop He Bo's river leaving him for dead, tracks Anubis to Ganesha's temple, where Ganesha prevents him from entering until Izanami attempts to burn it down, where Anubis tries to flee and is murdered by Ares. Elsehwere Athena is bodied by a frost giant andis saved by Nox. Athena and Ares soon Square off again as Hades prepares his ritual.

Ragnarok vid: he merges with part of Ragnarok, forcibly merging his underworld into the living realm, causing the skies to darken and the dead all over to become restless.

Divine uprising:: Bellona fights against Chernobog, has a sword swing casually blocked by Baron Samedi, fought Pele, and later she beats the tar our of Ragnarok amped Hades and Pele takes the ragnarok from him and all over the world and shoved it into the ground.

Hera's Odyssey: Hera recreates Argus, who's power and her own scares Loki. She travels to Asgard, saving Odin from giants along with Argus, then helps thor against an army of them. They then fight Fenrir and Hel. Thir breaks Fenrir's fangs and both of are beaten. They then go to Hera's arena where Ra, having been recovred, was in a fight with Bellona. The group, now with Ra, travels to an island where Jormungandr, now amped with the FULL power of Ragnarok, yes there is a difference between how much if it he had as opposed to Hades, and Thor buys the others time and...is brutally thrashed and unable to harm his foe.

Legend of camelot: merlin, unable to harm Jormungandr, was the one who sent him back to his world, to the spot where Pele had sealed the ragnarok power. Oops. They travel to "Avalon" aka the smite world proper, and Ra blinds them so the groul can save Thor and retreat. They, along with Odin, travel to Asgard where its revealed Merlin crafted Excalibur from the left over power of his fellow gods from the last cycle. And, having robbed Jormungandr of Ragnarok, Excalibur deals a devastating blownto him. But he gets away.

Council of the gods: nothing noteworthy here, other than the murder of Osiris by Set.

Battle for Olympus: Thanatos, Discordia, and Set get intk a major fight with Hera, Argus, Horus, Ra, and Kukulkan. And it's surprisingly an even one, until Olorun comes down and forcez Thanatos, Set. And Discordia to run with their tails between their legs. Also there was a mention of Bellona fightinf Ares, but it was not elaborated on.

Underworld Odyssey: keep in mind this is sti ongoing, but Olorun's power is compared to Zeus and Odin. And later on, Olorun, Samedi, Horus, Athena, and Argus go into the underworld, narrowly surviving Persephone's traps. And later get ganged up on by Cerberus and the armies of the underworld, with Cerberus taking on Olorun. And FFS, Cerberus and Olorun DO scuffle a bit BEFORE Olorun gets poisoned. He isnt fighting the ENTIRE fight poisoned. And durability decreasing isnt even how his poison works. His poison paralyzes, and apparently burns like hell. What probably DID do some temporary durability decreasing is his ghastly breath, which TEMPORARILY reduces magical protections. Temporarily being the key word. Going by in game it lasts a couple seconds at most. and then Yemoja saves them all before they die. oh, almost forgot Hades and Cerberus referencing Hercules' shenanigans in the underworld.

There. You have the links to the stories, amd every major fight and power scaling in the main story. Shall I go into god lore bios, or is all the fights these gods are in, and how many are shown to be on some kind of comparable level to the likes of Zeus, Odin, Olorun, and Ra, among others. And with how many that are SHOWN to scale around each other, for those who aren't in the stort YET, is is likely they will scale to. Admittedly until we see them, the likes of Medusa, Arachne, and Kuzenbo have nothing to go off of. But the majority of the cast CAN be put into a similar tier. Not saying EVERYONE is 100% equal. There are clearly stronger characters compared to others. But look at dbs with how many universe+ tiers they have, yet some can body others in their same tier.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Sorry for this last word wall, hopefully, but I hope this proves my point. and for the last time, the Pantheon war comic IS canon. The OTHER comic, the one made before it, isn't and has been ignored by Hi-rez and their current story. When you say "ignore the comic" be mindful as to which one you are talking about. Unless he confused the comic for the magazine which is hella noncanon.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Ok then.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

First thing, Olorun catching Cerberus jaw is a sign of initial physical superiority. Him even bothering to catch it is probably still because Cerberus still breathes poison and eats souls.

I didn't ignore any of your points, everything you brought up as of that message has been responded to. I asked you to say your mind and bring me your evidence and such. You failed to do that and instead chose to repost a lot of the same evidence already discussed previously. I apologize that you take this badly and apologize if you perceived my actions as rushing you- I just wanted the answers to my questions and I have yet to get them.

As for your next wall, this is a vast improvement over your last posts. I'll look through it when I'm not at work but do keep in mind that we have discussed the comics and currently disregard them.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Don't know who agreed too disregard the literal canon comic? It's the direct prequel to the odyssey. You can't just arbitrarily pick and choose.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Idk, I saw it as him not wanting to get bitten. Granted I feel that if Olorun hadn't expended a ton of energy prior, he likely would have won without as much struggme, but I think he took Cerberus' power seriously. Olorun isn't boisterous like say...Odin. Also the poison is from the snake tail, not the dog heads. It's not really said what the noxious breath IS exactly. Even the game description is vague, so I can't give an argument for that being poison. But in my view: Cerberus = a worn out Olorun. Olorun at peak power without having to deal with those traps set by Persephone? Yeah Olorun would likely have won. My point though was that Cerberus is a bit stronger than it felt like he was given credit for and deserved a spot in the scaling tree. Not that he'd dominate Olorun in every fight.

And for my part I apologize to. I was trying to help with this reviison, while taking my dad to the dentist, then at a doctors appointment, and while at work myself. So I didn't have a LOT of time to get into the nitty gritty. And, look. I did kind of take it the wrong way. I LOVE Smite, it's story, and it's characters. I have spent a LOT of time repeatedly combing over god bios, the story chapters, god reveal videos, etc, to form my own personal scaling on the gods, get an understanding of how they scale as a collective, and how their immortality and power functions in relation to the humans who inadvertently made them, and worship them. It's a verse I'm clearly passionate about and, in tandem with being rushed around a lot today, and wanting to see the verse get a rating I felt it deserves, with examples of a baseline and a possible high ball or two depending on how others felt about what I had. And...I took things the wrong way.

And why? The comics, again, the Pantheon war one, not the other comic, is considered canon. Events in it are referenced repeatedly. Loki killed Zeus. Ra had his shit kicked in by Ares. Hel freed her brother. We can't pretend it didn't happen, cause Hi-rez specifically chose to continje this comic's story in the main game, ditching their previous story of the "old order vs the elysian uprising" which the original comic was about. Those and the magazine I'd agree as being left out for good reason. But...can't say I agree about ignoring the comic that clearly is canon...but that may just be me.

Anyways, I hope things are cool between us. And again, for my part, I do apologize.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Don't know who agreed too disregard the literal canon comic? It's the direct prequel to the odyssey. You can't just arbitrarily pick and choose.

Yeah that bit is confusing me to. Hi-rez had dark horse make it, and then later they ditched the original premise for the game to continue this specific story. Feels weird to disregard it when hi-rez clearly made it canon on purpose and have followed up on and continually reference it.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Gaara "And for my part I apologize to. I was trying to help with this reviison, while taking my dad to the dentist, then at a doctors appointment, and while at work myself. So I didn't have a LOT of time to get into the nitty gritty. And, look. I did kind of take it the wrong way. I LOVE Smite, it's story, and it's characters. I have spent a LOT of time repeatedly combing over god bios, the story chapters, god reveal videos, etc, to form my own personal scaling on the gods, get an understanding of how they scale as a collective, and how their immortality and power functions in relation to the humans who inadvertently made them, and worship them. It's a verse I'm clearly passionate about and, in tandem with being rushed around a lot today, and wanting to see the verse get a rating I felt it deserves, with examples of a baseline and a possible high ball or two depending on how others felt about what I had. And...I took things the wrong way."

You really don't have to give an excuse for that. In fact, you weren't even forced to explain why. I don't really agree with anything you say (Bambu's system seems to be the better option we have) but it's clear that you really love this verse and we all make mistakes (i did on this thread and Bambu can confirm it). Don't need to apologize for that haha.

For the rest, i agree with one thing, the poison came from Cereberus's snake tail. Now we can say his breath is poisonous in itself of coures but that doesn't change the fact Cerberus first hit him with his tail before attacking..

Sigurd the comics thing was discussed above due to all the inconsistencies it causes with the game. But i agree, we can't ignore the prequel comics, it's the starting point of the netire game.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Sigurd Way up above, me, Matt, and Aldamore all pointed out how wildly inconsistent the comics were, such as Ares beating a character he is canonically wildly inferior to. Beating him like a ragdoll, for that matter. I get that the story is linked, but the story of the MCU is also linked to the comic books, that doesn't justify the inconsistencies. If we're not scaling everyone to Low 2-C because we acknowledge the inconsistencies then we need to make this distinction. Something something either they're all okay or none of them are okay. So no, I didn't "randomly pick and choose".

@Gaara Cerberus still has a breath attack though that is visually similar to his poison. "Each of Cerberus's 3 heads releases a cone of noxious breath in front of them, damaging all enemies in range 7 times over 2.4s and reducing their Magical Protections up to three times. Enemies in the center of his breath are also Slowed up to three times. This attack immediately puts all three of Cerberus's heads on Alert for Paralyzing Spit." As for the rest of that, if we can accept that Olorun was weakened then sure, I guess.

If we wanna start taking comics back into account then sure, I guess, but I get the feeling it's going to lead to the outcome Sigurd blocked before, Low 2-C scaling. Like I said at the time Perp suggested it- I'm neutral towards the idea, Perp is planning on commenting so I guess if we're gunning for a turnaround then now's the time. If we take the comics into account, Low 2-C scaling is far more likely than without them.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Don't remember exactly, is there anything that suggests Olorun was weakened before being poisoned (aside from the possible fact that the Underworld has an effect on exterior beings) ?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Gaara seems to imply Olorun was using a lot of his energy beforehand. It doesn't matter either way, in my opinion, since there's a reasonable alternative discussion.

So, basically this depends on if we want to consider the scaling of the comics, namely that everybody would be Low 2-C if we ignore inconsistencies.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Mmh i see. I don't recall anything like this though.

We could possibly explain that Ares was able to beat down Ra because he was empowered by conflict and violence and because Ragnarok was already in motion so it weakened the power of the gods except those like Ares who thrive in conflict. Not saying it is an argument, it's only a theory.

Anyway, personally, i will accept the scaling to Low 2-C if this is the path we chose in the end but i consider the 7-A, High 4-C, Low 2-C system better.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I assume he refers to fighting through Persephone's plants.

Could be. Khorne style.

I do too, but I can accept Low 2-C. Sigurd seems to be in both camps, Matt is solidly against Low 2-C, Gaara and Perp are pro-Low 2-C and I dunno about Aldamore.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

So we'll have to wait for Aldamore or more elements that could solidify one of these options.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Btw, wich characters would you put on this wiki guys (asking to everybody) ? Personally, i'm interested into Bellona, Chernobog, Set, Ah Puch, Kukulkan, Merlin and possibly Loki and Pele.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Olorun did use a lot of energy. Persephone's trap vines where bombarding everyone from every side. Argus couldn't even fight back, and if he didn't act, they were in big trouble. And after, he was on the ground panting. Showing he isn't used to using his power like this. He used a lot of enery and it drained him. Derp! I totally forgot the heads spat poison to! That said, there is a distinction between the two abilities, and just cause it's noxious doesn't imply poison itself. Granted it's vague so I guess it REALLY depends on how you look at it? Thag said, the initial attack started before the snake and breath. Also I'm rereading it now. Argus also fought Cerberus for a moment before being thrown ass over tea kettle into the styx. Argus is no weakling. And Ceberus' initial lunge at Olorun caused him to react un defense and the momentum behind the gisnt hound drove him back. And the noxious breath is only temporary,so I wouldn't say it lasted the entire fight anyways. Can't believe I forgot Argus clashing with him before Olorun did.

Ares also does draw power from war. Bellona has stated the same for herself. Times of conflict are key for war gods, and the peace Hera wanted for everyone is bad for gods like herself and Ares. Plus Ra seemed more interested in trying to talk Ares down, leaving himself open for the beating he was given. Likely if he hadn't done that, he may have stood a far better chance. But between that and Ares being amped through conflict...yeah he got wrecked. Hell Bellona also trashed Ragnarok Hades. Granted he only took in a small portion of Ragnarok compared to the boost Jormungandr got later on.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

So here is how I view the Zeus and Ra beatings.

Zeus was visibly out numbered. It's likely one on one he could take Hel, Loki, or Ao Kuang. But all ganged up, he was overwhelmed. And Loki back stabbed him. In game, Loki does much more damage from behind, and his execute ability, killing an opponent instantly bellow a certain health level, is a teleporting back stab. Clearly it's something he excels at.

And Ares, and Bellona for that matter, and gods like them like Discordia, thrive on conflict. War specifically. He was leading armies of worshipers against Egypt. He beat their war god. Ra tried to talk him down rather than fight. Ares didn't want any of it, and jumped him. Likely one on one in a neutral situation, Ra would have a FAR better chance. But here? Mid war? Ares is in his element.

 

[ThePerpetual]

"...the lore states both that leaders of gods, such as Odin, Zeus, and Olorun, have such power that it is pretty astonishing to everyone else..."

"...how wildly inconsistent the comics were, such as Ares beating a character he is canonically wildly inferior to..."

The very fundamental problem, with this entire argument, is that people presuppose that having astonishing power relative to everyone else in the verse automatically means that they are insurmountable to everyone else in the verse. We have exclusively been shown that they have not been, and not been given any instances in which they have.

Let's take a look at the track record-

> Olorun, Newest Pantheon Leader, was harmed both separately by Cerberus and by Persephone's minions, as already shown (and meaningfully benefited from Baron Samedi's and Yemoja's support abilities, which would not have been the case had their magical ability to aid him been <<<<<< the scale he operates on), as has been discussed already.

>> Furthermore, Cerberus physically overpowered Olorun, at least for a time-

Argus flew past him to crash into the Styx. Olorun turned to see Cerberus loping towards him, jaws agape. He flung his hands out, catching the jaws of the central head before they could close abut him. He braced himself, but Cerberus' momentum drove him back. "You are not the first god to storm the gates of the underworld," Cerberus snarled, forcing Olorun towards the water.

And, also, hurt him with his noxious breath, specifically noted in this very scene to be distinct from his poison.

"Cease this madness," Olorun said. "You cannot stand against us." Cerberus' reply was a billowing cone of noxious breath. Olorun gagged as the miasma enveloped him. Through tear-stung eyes, he saw Cerberus' serpent headed tail rise up over the hound's back, and undulate towards him, tongue flickering. Olorun was forced to release Cerberus' jaws in order to avoid its strike. The snake darted towards him again, and he caught it by the head. "I do not wish to harm you, hound," Olorun said. "But I will if I must." The snake spread its jaws and spat poison. Olorun roared as the stinging venom spattered over his head and shoulders. The pain was unlike anything he'd ever encountered. He flung the tail away, and Cerberus pounced, slamming him into the ground. Blinded, choking, Olorun loosed a blast of light, driving the beast back. He tried to get to his feet as the hound retreated, head spinning.

(Note: This is eve consistent with Cerberus as we see him in-game, in which "spitting venom" (his 1st Ability) is distinct from his "noxious breath" (his 2nd Ability.))

>> Furthermore, Olorun was harmed by, and took seriously, Persephone's summons-

"As if sensing his momentary weakness, the dead pounced. They tore at him with fingers and teeth, trying to pull him down. He brought his hands together with a crash, releasing a burst of light that sent the corpses flying. He slumped. His strength was waning."

>> And from the beginning, confirmed that he considered Cerberus powerful enough to consider a threat.

Cerberus was waiting for them when they reached the other side of the river. The gigantic hound paced back and forth, heads lowered, fangs bared. Olorun stopped a respectful distance away and studied the creature. The beast was not a god, but it was powerful nonetheless. "Step aside," he said. "I have no wish to harm you."

(By the by, that Olorun never wanted to harm Cerberus in the first place, and held back offensively at first- and that this was an ambush, against dozens if not hundreds of Persephone's minions- was rather explicitly stated to be why they were losing.)

"Fight," Olorun said, grimly. He'd miscalculated - assumed that Hades and Persephone would see sense, and give in once he arrived at their threshold. And now he'd inadvertently led his allies into an ambush. He had only one recourse. "Agemo - awaken," he whispered. "Awaken, my messenger." He raised his hand, and one of his bracers shimmered as something heretofore invisible became visible - the tiny form of a golden chameleon. It blinked its bulbous eyes at him, awaiting his command. "Go Agemo - find Yemoja," Olorun murmured, as the dead pressed close about him. "Tell the goddess of rivers that I require her aid." The chameleon blinked and was gone a moment later. The dead closed in. He spun, light flaring from his fists, reducing the closest corpses to ash.

So, to summarize,

>>> Olorun/Horus/Hera/Baron Samedi recognized that Cerberus, alone, wouldn't stand a chance against them. However, Cerberus plus hundreds of Persephone's/Hades' minions was recognized by Olorun to be a losing match, especially when backed up against the River Styx, which they had just got done explaining soul-haxes everything that touches it. So, he called upon an ally of his- that also happened to be a goddess of rivers, mind- to turn the fight, since Olorun/Horus/Hera/Baron Samedi +Yemoja, who is fighting right next to her literal domain of specialty, are able to take Cerberus +a large army of Underworld minions (many of whom were fighting right next to/using to their advantage said river.)

"A moment later, the Styx overflowed its banks. The dark waters crashed onto the shore, washing over the dead, but leaving Olorun and the other gods untouched. Cerberus howled as he too was caught in the cascade. The Styx spiralled up in a water spout that contained both the struggling hound and the dead. It spun faster and faster, until each struggling form seemed to blend into the next. As it did so a tall woman, clad in blue, stepped from the waters. Agemo crouched on her shoulder, She raised her hand and gestured,. The Styx crashed back down between its banks with thunderous force. Of Cerberus and the dead, there was no sign."

...the story is as transparent as is possible about how strong it treats its Gods relative to one another, that being that Olorun is a much stronger than normal God- but, like Zeus or Odin, nothing more.

Speaking of,

> Zeus, Comparable Pantheon Leader, was assassinated by Loki, Ao Kuang, and Hel working together (though Loki alone was swiftly going to die- again consistent with "taking on a Pantheon Head alone is probably suicide".)

>> And, later, Loki stomps Hel in a 1v1 with both the Thunderbolt and the element of surprise (because, of course), and wins out against Neith, Athena, and Mercury. However, vitally, note that he isn't effortlessly one-shotting them once he has to contend with multiple at once: it is only through outwitting them that he is able to kill Mercury, and even then flees after the fact.

In other words, Zeus's power is not enough to guarantee a victory against multiple "normal" Gods.

> Odin, other Comparable Pantheon Leader, fought against, and would lost to without outside intervention, a group of frost giants.

The ground was littered with the bodies of gigantic, hideous monsters, things of slab-like muscle and crude runes tattooed upon flesh as blue as the lips of the dead.

"Frost giants," said Hera under her breath, her eyes drawn to the conflict raging within the remnants of the temple.

Not all of the creatures were dead.

As imposing as they were lying slain upon the ground, the frost giants were even more monstrous alive. A trio of the foul creatures stood at the opposite end of the temple, bellowing in rage as they sought to crush a single armoured figure opposing them. Hera could only make out the stranger in half glimpses between the walls of enraged blue flesh, seeing intricate battle armour, a helm crested by a pair of curving horns, and the brilliant flash of a shining spear blade. The warrior had faced down this horde alone, and despite the odds had winnowed his foes down to these final three.

But it was clear to Hera that his strength was waning, and the countless wounds he had suffered were beginning to take their toll. The attacks and footwork she watched were degrading into staggers, sweeps and lunges of the spear relying on momentum over skill or fighting technique. If she did not intervene, he would fall here.

And, if we're going to count Ra and Amaterasu as Pantheon Head-level on top of that as we seem to,

> Ra- as again already discussed- was punched near to death by Ares-

"Zeus, King of Olympus is dead. His surviving brother, Hades, assumed the throne and set the Olympian army upon the Kingdom of the Sun, where Anubis, the suspected murderer, was shielded by the Sun God, Ra. Unmatched in battle, Ares commanded the Olympian assault, crushed the desert city, and defeated Ra. In his rage, the God of War blinded the Egyptian King, thus blackening the sun. Anubis, however, was nowhere to be found. Meanwhile, Athena, guided by Neith, pursued Zeus' true murderer, Loki. Across the Roman countryside the Trickster God traveled, wielding Zeus' mighty thunderbolt with reckless glee."

(In case it was unclear at this point, the Comics and the Story are the same thing. That is, dismissing the Comics as inconsistent with the story is an illegitimate argument because the comics are the story.)

> And, finally, Amaterasu was beat out by Xing Tia, and would have died without Susano'o's intervention (err, "died". As Gaara's pointed out, the concept of death doesn't really apply to Gods and the like properly, which we've seen now in more detail with the Underworld odyssey.)

...

So, back to "the comics are inconsistent with the story"... no they are not? They, again, are the story to begin with. They depict exactly the same events that are referenced in the Gods' Lore, that occur in the Odyssey (which is the ongoing story of the verse as a whole as the introduction of new Gods shapes the story), etc.

So what, exactly, is any of this occurring inconsistent with? We have multiple years of material showing over and over that Pantheon Heads are formidable relative to normal Gods, but can be overcome, that they ca be overcome is vital to the ongoing story, and that said story received an adaptation to comic book format.

Meanwhile, we have yet to see a single statement, feat, or anything of the sort that gives us any reason whatsoever to assume that SMITE characters would not scale to one another for such ceaselessly frequent feats of fighting on-par with one another, in the same manner that any other character/s in fiction would. If there is such a statement- if there's something, anything at all that says "oh, hey, such and such reason is why Gods that are supposed to be infinitely stronger than other Gods yet have failed to demonstrate such, to the point of regularly being contested by even the minions of said Gods", then by all means share.

I offered such a way out with the Lore/Prime Self Distinction from their current incarnations, but even if that were to be accepted,

> We're still flatly told outright that Gods were, at their peak, beings that inhabited a higher plane of existence relative to mortals.

In other words, even if we were to assume that their currently incarnate selves on Earth couldn't replicate their Lore feats, and thus Olorun's lore feats are to remain separate from everyone else's, the Gods' true/prime selves would still be Tier 2 of some kind.

The main counter-argument against this that I have seen is that the comics are to be ignored, on account of their contradicting the main story, which again does not work because they are the story. So, why negate these statements? Sigurd, at least, pointed out that there has been a serious lack of elaboration on this point in the lore, and that seems to be a valid concern. Flatly ignoring them because you claim to be unable to make sense of the story, meanwhile, does not hold basis in anything.

...other notes:

> Yggdrasil is not galaxy-sized, as is claimed. It is the trunk, specifically, that spans the size of a galaxy- the branches, meanwhile, span the nine separate realms of existence.

"Yggdrasil, the world tree; upon those mighty boughs are held the nine realms of existence, and nests the wise Eagle. Far below, across the galaxy spanning trunk, and beneath the roots, coils Nidhogg, the deplorable serpent."

Which, again, makes sense. In fact, from the looks of things what we may have is more corroborating evidence for the broader multiverse in play (remember King Arthur coming from a parallel reality?), with the mention of multiple realms:

"At the beginning of time, the Realm of Fire, Muspell, and the Realm of Ice, Niflheim met at the place called Ginnungagap; the void of space. Steam rose and froze again, and from that primordial mixture, Ymir, King of the Frost Giants took shape. From his body dripped other beings that would become the ancestors of Gods, Men, Dwarves, and of course, Giants. Even the mighty Odin must claim Ymir as his grandfather. Yet Ymir, like all giants, was an evil creature and led his Giant brethren against the Gods. After ages of warfare, Odin and his brothers slew the Giant-King and forged the world from his remains."

Note that "the world" is used independently of "all creation", and that realms are described as independent of one another... which I suppose is best to interpret for now as simply space, but Hel's lore describes Niflheim as a place that souls specifically are thrown into.

With Heimdallr coming soon, I suppose, we should receive elaboration on the way in which the realms relate to one another...

> "The whole point of his (Olorun's) existence is that he's > other Gods"

Based on what, an Inside Look from the design team on his general aesthetic and feel? Yeah, they wanted to make him "feel" like... well, essentially the closest to capital G God we're likely to see in the game any time soon, so they went into detail with the themes of "distance", "dignity", "holy light", etc.

However, we're also flatly told that, if he's stronger than Zeus or Odin, it's not by a noticeable amount, and their actual showings of power relative to the rest of the verse back this up.

And, as already explained, more things make a ruler than simply power (which was even a plot point in the newest Odyssey-)

> "No." Olorun paused. "But I hoped." He sighed. His claim to the throne was still tenuous...

"Who is this pretender to Zeus' throne? That is the question you ask yourselves, even as you partake of my hospitality. Nor are you alone in asking it." He smiled, and the light around him turned warm and comforting. "I do not begrudge you the question, my friends. You have every right to ask it. You have every right to ask it. You have every right to question my right to lead. As yes, I have given you no reason to trust me ― or follow my commands." His smile faded, and the warmth with it. "But I will. That is why I have requested your presence, especially."

...""Indeed," Izanami said, her voice as cold as the grave. "Such a command smack of hubris. We are not lackey, to be ordered about thus." Her eyes flashed with rage as she pointed a rotting talon at Olorun. "Did you call us here just to flaunt you strength?""

So no, I don't think that the loosely-interpreted authorial intent of people that aren't even in charge of writing the actual story is grounds for ignoring what it is that actually happened in said story.

> Vamana still has a Universal-at-minimum feat, are we just going to ignore that?

"Bali offered Vamana an island but Vamana stuck to his request, which Bali granted against the wishes of his advisor. Immediately, Vamana grew to cosmic proportions, crashing through the ceiling of the palace and filling the sky. With one colossal step, he engulfed all the Earth and the Underworld. With a second step, he consumed the heavens. Now, with everything under his two feet, Vamana had nowhere to place his third step. He challenged Bali to go back on his word or offer somewhere else for him to step."

(Note that, in Hindu cosmology, the Underworld, or Patala, is one of three entirely separate realms of existence that make up their "universe".)

So, in other words, Vamana's Lore states that in two steps Vamana was able to span the entirety of all of Hindu mythology's known creation, which seems again to constitute multiple realities.

And Vamana is a normal God.

In summary-

Prem.: Claims that the Comics are inconsistent with the story are incoherent because the comics are the story- that is, they depict the same events as and are taken as seriously by the ongoing narrative as anything in the Odysseys or the Gods' Lore entries,

Prem.: Olorun was somewhat-evenly contested by Cerberus even before he was hit with poison, just as every one of the multiple Pantheon Heads before him had been contested by other Gods and their minions (and almost universally, too, with obvious extenuating factors that explains why the more powerful God lost- Ra is the sole exception, and Ares in SMITE seems pretty consistently able to curb most any God. He even got a Tier 5 skin for that, if you'll recall. Personally, I'm partial to Gaara's explanation on how this bit would make sense, but whatever the case may be it happened all the same),

Prem.: No statement exists that internally reconciles these showings with the notion that Pantheon Heads are so vastly superior to normal Gods that they cannot be contested, even if it were an actual notion that existed in the verse;

Conc.: Thus, all Gods and the like should be taken to be on a relatively even power keel, as we have no reason to believe otherwise in the face of years of evidence demonstrating that they are such.

Prem.: We could make a Current Self/Lore or Prime Self distinction, and give SMITE characters two keys. However, even that Current Self/Lore or Prime Self distinction would not escape this, due to repeated statements of the Gods' Prime Selves all having occupied a higher plane of existence from a believable source in the canon,

Conc.: So, even were such a distinction to be made, their prime selves would all still be Low 2-C, at least.

So, the only real question I find is left, in light of there being no evidence that refutes the feats or scaling, is whether the Gods' current incarnations should possess a Current Incarnation key of any kind, or not.

There's a bit more ground to cover, but that ought to do it for now. A nice, easy logical-argument format, lined up to make it easy to attack if one has a way in which one of the premises doesn't hold water or necessarily entail the conclusion that succeeds it.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Where did you get the Xing Tian vs Amaterasu thing? That was never in the main story in fact Amaterasu was only JUST added into it, a d it was at a gathering of gods at the request of Olorun.

Also this higher plane thing. That's only really seems to be shown for SOME pantheons. Olympus, where gods like Zeus, Hera, and Athena live, meanwhile is implied as being on earth. Not really in some heavenly realm. Not that it really changes the yeara of consistent power scaling. Just thought I'd bring it up as I don't see the need for multiple keys UNLESS you wanna try and scale their skins, the one's who have an alternate story/world behind them.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Amaterasu going to fight Xing Tian was like, essentially the first Odyssey that was actual storyline as opposed to just establishing the setting. Apparently, she is considered a pantheon head- that is, on an even power keel with Zeus, Olorun, Odin, Ra, etc. So, yet another instance of a Pantheon Head losing to a normal God once weakened (in her case, due to the absence of the sun) demonstrates that this was the intention for such Pantheon Heads since nearly the game's inception, is the idea, which reinforces the later cases to come.

The higher-planes thing was explained by Homer, in one of the side comics- essentially, all Gods and Pantheons, in all mythologies, had that much in common. I understand that such isn't a comic book adaptation directly of what occurred in the Odyssey, but seeing as they have the same publisher (Dark Horse), one was published within a year of another (January 2015 for the former, vs. December 2015 for the latter), and that the end of the one that was published first leads directly into the narrative of the next? I don't see how it would be inconsistent, no.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Wait, then why didn't hi-rez make a bigger case about this? They only made a big case for the story when Fall of War came about, the Odyssey after this one. I had ZERO idea any of this storyline was a thing. But I have issues with it. Why would Anubis be in egypt? He FLED Egypt, when Ares came for him. Yeah he fought Camazotz, according to Chaac, but yeah...Neith was also not there for the war, but with a dying Mercury at the end of the comic. I'm just a bit confused about some things here....unless I'm missing something as to how this connects between "Pantheon war" and "Fall of war". I'm just totally lost from not having known about this one. I'll have to give it a more in depth reading later, when I have time. Likely after work.

Idk, it seems to align more with the story they abandoned, old order vs elysian uprising. So I'd agree THAT specific comic feels iffy.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Perp's wall... right.

1. It isn't an assumption that being more powerful is insurmountable and indeed, this isn't how scaling works. I'm sure creators of verses don't intend for the inconsistencies to occur, but by our standards they still happen. So in verse, Low 2C and High 4C might make sense even if theoretically that's an infinite gap. No presumptions were made in reaching the conclusions above.

2. Olorun is very explicitly berated by Cerberus' has when he's actually harmed, being pushed back is just LS. Dunno why you consider this relevant.

3. It states that his strength is waning, not that he was actually wounded by Persephone's minions. In fact the opposite seems true considering it mentions his waning strength after using his power to get them off, not after being bombarded by them. So his waning strength appears to be a result of using more powers. I've already spoken on how being literally poisoned can make a dude weaker as well- so all of this is still consistent with High 4C normal gods.

4. This stuff with Loki still has me get the impression that you don't understand that the game revs and writers probably don't understand how powerscaling works? Of course they're going to make it seem like a real fight even if by their own lore an infinite gap in AP exists. Hell, you've played DnD, the creators of that assume a horse of 100 9Bs pose legitimate harm to a Low 6B, you should understand this stuff. Regardless, Loki killing Zeus is a solid enough point but it also uses Hel and Loki to do it. I dunno if Loki is among those who benefitted from this, but Loki's children ostensibly became more powerful during the Ragnarok.

5. A separate point to the above. The reason your Low 2C E V E R Y B O D Y suggestion was denied above was because it took the highest possible feats and scaled it to everybody with little regard to the game's own actual statements on scaling. The game has 1 super solid Low 2C feat from Olorun, and more if you count being the physical manifestation of time. Meanwhile it has double digits of Tier 4 feats. The inconsistency argument for the comics isn't debunked because the game considers the comics canon because that has nothing to do with the argument.

6. epic hidden insults seeded in there, with the whole "can't understand the story" bit, I'll hold my tongue at this part due to the spikes coming off of it

7. Regarding Ygdrassil, Matt claims the nine realms are still part of the Earthrealm. Not full on universe spanning. Plus going by your own logic it would be impossible for a 3-B construct to span infinite distance in the same way that it's impossible for a High 4C to harm a Low 2C, eh?

8. Vamana's feat isn't inherently Low 2C at all, not do we reference real world religion, Perp, point is invalid.

In summary: a lot of what you say either has already been considered or cc'd an be debunked by basic common sense. With that said, I'm still fine if we use the comic books, I have been working under the assumption since they were last rejected (and nobody battled the point after that so it seemed like they were truly rejected). I can still consider them fine and thus Low 2C scaling fine, but you guys need to come to a decision.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Well I'm all for low 2C. Yeah not ALL the gods are 100% even. But many charachters can exist in the same tier in a verse and be stommped by someone else in the tier from the same verse, examples being Goku's ability to beat the tar out of many TOP combatants with only a handful capable of being a real equal, but said combatants pushing others who are in a similar tier as goku, just to a lesser degree. Or how Jyggalag was implied to be the strongest Deidra in the Elder Scrolls, forcing the ither deidra to curse him into madness, less they risk being invaded, despite them being in the same tier as him.

As I stated, Loki ganged up on him with two others. Zeus would have likely won one on one. But in numbers, you can overwhelm and beat a stronger foe, like Sonic, Classic Sonic, and The Avatar needing to team together to beat Eggman in forces. And Loki DID attack him from behind, where Loki exceeds at doing damage if his abilities in game tell us anything. He is a trickster and assassin. No duh he'd loose in a direct head to head brawl one on one against Zeus. Thus, likely same tier, but on a lower rung.

 

[ThePerpetual]

1. That certainly seems to be the assumption.

2-3. Because the clear portrayal, again, is that they are on an even keel. Olorun moves to dodge and react to his physical strikes (that being the bite, the claws, etc.), which he wouldn't bother with if Cerberus didn't pose a clear threat to him, and was harmed by attacks of his that were not inherently Durability-Negating to our knowledge (the Noxious Breath.) I find that such a portrayal, when consistent with everything else in the verse as established, holds real value to it.

4. Comparing a horse to an epic level adventurer, demon lord, or what have you is a false allegory- Loki is not alike a horse, or even 1000 horses, relative to an epic-level character or whatever else reaches Low 6-B in D&D in that way. In those cases, no matter the numerical difference, the Low 6-B possesses an attribute: "Character did X", or "Character is demonstrably on an even keel with person who did X", or even "We have sufficient reason to believe that Character is on an even keel with person who did X" that motivates their scaling, and no number of 9-Bs do.

This is the way in which Gods would be comparable to one another. "Olorun did X", (assorted Pantheon Heads) plus anyone with the screen-time that proves for certain that they are comparable are demonstrably on an even keel with "Olorun who did X", and everyone else, we are given ample reason to believe are comparable to "Olorun who did X" on account of the group who are demonstrably comparable including even some of the supposedly weakest relevant characters in the verse.

(Hel and Loki's assassination attempt, important to note, involved Ao Kuang- in fact, Ao Kuang is the one who does most of the heavy lifting in the fight, from deflecting and redirecting Zeus's lightning bolts, to dodging them himself, to then electrocuting him with his own. Again, Ao Kuang is a "normal" God, with little connection to anything else in the world, who then got punked by Hel and was in lore punked by Wukong- this lore is clearly established and referenced within the story itself, too.)

5. On the contrary, the game has no statements on scaling, which is precisely the problem. That is, aside from Hera's remark that taking on a Pantheon leader in a 1v1 is near-equivalent to suicide on account of the power difference, which... yeah, that checks out! Pantheon leaders have lost, even 1v1s, but again only with the extenuating circumstances, barring the ambiguity of Ra vs. Ares' case.

6. Hidden insults? I am not the one who made the claim that they found the narrative incoherent, they were. I do find it to be coherent, and that claims to its in-coherency relative to oneself are not a viable reason to ignore what is otherwise obviously occurring in some fashion or another, and stated such. If that constitutes an insult...

Well, at any rate, I find "It's bs lol" without further elaboration (at least without having to go out of my way to extract it) as to why that's so or what the reasoning is, to much more denigrating and condescending. Anyone who bothers to gather the evidence and put it forward deserves to be taken seriously, on this site and otherwise, and my first actual interactions with these people being as such is unwarranted.

7. Be that as it may, if we want to confirm such for certain we will need actual evidence for it. I made no claim that the opposite was, for certain, true- only that there clearly exist feats on some form of cosmic scale as a relatively commonplace occurrence in the verse, and that this particular feat is worth keeping an eye on, as a God whose nature might elaborate on SMITE's iteration of Norse Mythology is just around the corner (namely, Heimdallr.)

8. We don't? Even when the verses are clearly stated to exist in SMITE itself, and are described as functioning in much the same way? It was established in the very first Odyssey that Hindu mythology within the boundaries of the game's verse, even, believes in a multiverse, an eternally reincarnating reality of the same sort that actual Hinduism believes (if you haven't noticed, being unfaithful to actual Hindu mythology has been a very gigantic no-no for Hi-Rez in the past.)

If an explicit statement is what you need to infer that much, then that still leaves the fact that everything- the world, the heavens, the underworld- was covered within two steps. And, furthermore, we already know that Hindu cosmology understands that there is a universe... so... in what way is that not Universal, still?

The only actual point being made, again, is that this isn't a one-off feat that only Olorun possesses.

In Summary: "Common" Sense, or that sense which is commo, is fallible, and its not at all apparent that these concerns have been "debunked." Who decides when something has been debunked?

I don't think that asking that the talking points be taken seriously is asking much. Gaara and Sigurd were, and that was fine! In fact, if we are able to divorce the story of the stand-alone Jan. 2015 comic from the other three that are clearly an adaptation of the odyssey as Gaara suggested, and then make the Lore Self/Prime Self distinction, we can overcome everyone being L2-C entirely, here and from now on, and all is right in the world.

If not, and we cannot find a way to escape any of the other premises/sever them from the conclusions...

Well, then I would ask the room how they think the rest of the Odyssey is going to go, because I'm... I don't know, 95-98% certain that there will be a confrontation of Persephone and Hades involved, that it will involve some form of direct fighting/trading blows, that Olorun will be there for it, as will incoming God Heimdallr, and that everyone involved will then scale to one another. And then, we're back where we started.

And what of the next time a Pantheon Head fails to one-shot/is harmed by some random character in one of the pantheons? And the time after that? Will we still maintain that there's no scaling entailed?

So no, I'm afraid I cannot budge based on the evidence provided so far, and I cannot believe that an argument for "some are vastly more powerful than others, even in spite of their constantly facing one another in direct combat and the clear portrayal being that they can harm one another" succeeds.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

MrBambu "The game has 1 super solid Low 2C feat from Olorun, and more if you count being the physical manifestation of time." Maybe i'm missing something but Olorun isn't the manifestation of time. He has POWER OVER TIME, the personnification of time is Chronos.

Also, is it me or this thread started as a way to make better profiles fro SMITE to a fight between people's opinions ?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am with Bambu over Perp here.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Holy giant wall of words batman! And I thought MY word walls were huge lol. That said, this prime/lore key thing I don't FULLY agree with. Given the gods all come from literally the SAME place and draw power deom the SAME source, and have all had constant scalings. But, to each their own on that regard I guess

 

[Mr. Bambu]

First lemme address the smaller bit of text... @Arkham Yeah, if we take that as a truly Low 2-C feat then yeah that's great. But Low 2-C is space and time. Not just time. So we could leniently refer to Chronos as a Low 2-C feat, I think that's fair, but the only super solid Low 2-C feat comes from Olorun.

1. It isn't, it came from the Low 2-Cs being the ones with the actual Low 2-C feats. What we laid out as lower tier gods were those that could only reach Low 2-C via significant scaling chains that ignore other bits of context, such as "this god will commit suicide if they fight this guy in open combat". An assumption means it has no basis, whereas this has actual things it is based on.

2-3. Olorun countering bites are an easily explained thing when you consider that Cerberus still breathes noxious gas. We've been over this one. Every time Cerberus explicitly harms Olorun (not just knocks him around, again, that's just Lifting Strength) he does so via poison or after Olorun has been weakened by poison. I don't see the point to arguing Cerberus scaling to Olorun to begin with, you have other far more undeniable pieces of evidence to support this claim. Ares bodying Ra is a perfect example, it just requires discussion over whether we use comics. But there is no bit of Cerberus vs Olorun that doesn't involve Olorun being weakened by poison from the offset.

4. And yet they do. For narrative purposes, and this was in a narrative bit of lore, they would send 100 9-Bs to be an actual threat to a Low 6-B, who then sent another 100 9-Bs to be a threat to a High 6-A. This is called plot induced stupidity and while it isn't always stupid it is always overlooked for the purposes of scaling. That's the point here, that if it was an inconsistent showing for the purpose of creating a dramatic fight, then that isn't valid.

5. That's absolutely not true though lol, it mentions gods battling quite a lot. The Odyssey stuff is an obvious example of in-game scaling statements, where Olorun is stated to be equal to those like Odin or Zeus. Nemesis' lore states she is feared by those like Zeus as well.

6. The idea isn't that the story is incoherent, the idea is that the scaling is. The story lays out that this is the order of the gods, battling gods like this is a suicidal act for most. Then the story goes on to contradict itself. If you aren't looking at it from a VSBW point of view, the story is fine, but we are, and it isn't. Just saying "oh yeah it's super clear about this" doesn't actually help when the story is obviously contradictory with the information its putting out (through statements it claims this character would rofl stomp this other character, through portrayal it shows the supposed rofl stomp-ee becoming the rofl stomp-er).

7. You did though? In the Vamana bit you claim that his feat clearly spans multiple Low 2-C realms, so you really did make the claim of a wider cosmology. It's just that your reference for this is real world mythology which we have explicitly not been using.

8. We can use it only as far as SMITE uses it. Translation: we don't. We aren't here to tier religion because "lol it's in a game now it's allowed". We're here to tier Hi-Rez take on real world religion and nothing else- no implications or references to real world religions, only explicitly what Hi-Rez has released. If you cannot get a statement proving Vamana's feat is Low 2-C purely from the context of the game (and I must state this again, without the context of actual real world Hindu mythology') then the feat isn't Low 2-C. Simply calling a place "the heavens" isn't proof of a Low 2-C feat.

So my point being made is that Perpetual sense, e.g., the sense that is Perpetual's, is also fallible. It uses basis on what is effectively another verse altogether (the various Mythologies) that end up not making sense in the context of the game.

What are you even talking about here? If I didn't take your posts seriously then I wouldn't get on my shitty laptop every time you decided to type words to both respond to your extensive wall with my own extensive wall and also remind you that I am neutral to the idea and am merely trying to show how many of your ideas simply do not hold water. If you believe that I'm not taking you seriously then I suppose I could just type "lol no" at everything you say and it wou;d have the same effect as, ironically enough, you clearly are not taking my points seriously and merely wish to be correct. As for the alternative comic: we are already doing that, I have typed this multiple times and you aren't regarding what I'm saying, see previous point.

Allow me to explain the actual problem with your idea as far as this thread goes. I would like to reiterate at this point that I do not care. I am not some big bad evil man coming to rain hell upon you, most of this has been me trying to get you to understand. Moving on... the issue with your scaling is that while it has feats to support it, it largely ignores the omniscient narrator feats and openly accepts using what is effectively one solid feat to scale to even the lowliest creatures. This is called inconsistency. The suggestion I made takes the exact opposite approach and instead embraces inconsistencies and takes them into consideration, but ultimately ignores all of the valid scaling points. We must take one or the other, some seem to lean towards one, others seem to lean towards the other. This is the issue as of right now, Cerberus and other feats like him obviously exist, we have been aware of this forever, that isn't the problem. Try to understand me here, please.

If you can't budge, oh well. I honestly don't care at this point, I see this going on until it becomes nothing and everybody leaves with a sour taste in their mouths because this is being made into more of a problem than it needs to be. I'm acknowledging your points faults as well as my own, I find it childish to see someone I had previously expected to be reasonable to stand there like a child and say "NO I AM RIGHT I WILL NOT CEDE ANY POINTS"

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Well you know my opinion. Atm I have work to do, so hopefully you all can come to some kind of conclusion. Low 2-C for GODS and the nongods shown directly or stated of being able to fight them. Unknowns like Kuzenbo and Da Ji, I'd leave as that. Unknown. At least until they are shown to scale. Anyways ttyl, it's packed here at work. See yall in three hours.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

To reiterate for posterity: I'm fine with Low 2-C scaling if we take into account the scaling and say to hell with the inconsistencies. I've said this since I read the initial argument. Most of my post is pointing out how this isn't a perfect solution to at least try to make it understood that the other ideas are also acceptable.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Personally, as i said, i don't really think scaling everyone to Low 2-C is a really good idea but i'm ok with this if it is accepted. The only solutions we currently have are this one and Bambu's system and both have good points for themselves so i guess we'll have to decide wich one should be used for more consistencies. Doesn't seem we have any ideal solution for that verse considering the mess it is anyway.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Same, I prefer the less extreme approach but I can see the point to Low 2-C scaling.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Well like i said, there is apparently no real ideal solution for this. Evene the original tiers are a mess. I mean, the 4-A thing was discussed but even without talking about the whole Primordials thing and Nox again, some (Nemesis, Nox, Janus, at least) are stated to be 3-C and i don't know where that comes from. The good news is that it seems we will finally reach some kind of conclusion.