"...the lore states both that leaders of gods, such as Odin, Zeus, and Olorun, have such power that it is pretty astonishing to everyone else..."
"...how wildly inconsistent the comics were, such as Ares beating a character he is canonically wildly inferior to..."
The very fundamental problem, with this entire argument, is that people presuppose that having astonishing power relative to everyone else in the verse automatically means that they are
insurmountable to everyone else in the verse. We have exclusively been shown that they have
not been, and not been given any instances in which they have.
Let's take a look at the track record-
> Olorun, Newest Pantheon Leader, was harmed both separately by Cerberus and by Persephone's minions, as already shown (and meaningfully benefited from Baron Samedi's and Yemoja's support abilities, which would not have been the case had their magical ability to aid him been <<<<<< the scale he operates on), as has been discussed already.
>> Furthermore, Cerberus
physically overpowered Olorun, at least for a time-
Argus flew past him to crash into the Styx. Olorun turned to see Cerberus loping towards him, jaws agape. He flung his hands out, catching the jaws of the central head before they could close abut him. He braced himself, but Cerberus' momentum drove him back. "You are not the first god to storm the gates of the underworld," Cerberus snarled, forcing Olorun towards the water.
And, also, hurt him with his noxious breath, specifically noted in this very scene to be distinct from his poison.
"Cease this madness," Olorun said. "You cannot stand against us." Cerberus' reply was a billowing cone of noxious breath. Olorun gagged as the miasma enveloped him. Through tear-stung eyes, he saw Cerberus' serpent headed tail rise up over the hound's back, and undulate towards him, tongue flickering. Olorun was forced to release Cerberus' jaws in order to avoid its strike. The snake darted towards him again, and he caught it by the head. "I do not wish to harm you, hound," Olorun said. "But I will if I must." The snake spread its jaws and spat poison. Olorun roared as the stinging venom spattered over his head and shoulders. The pain was unlike anything he'd ever encountered. He flung the tail away, and Cerberus pounced, slamming him into the ground. Blinded, choking, Olorun loosed a blast of light, driving the beast back. He tried to get to his feet as the hound retreated, head spinning.
(Note: This is
eve consistent with
Cerberus as we see him in-game, in which "spitting venom" (his 1st Ability) is distinct from his "noxious breath" (his 2nd Ability.))
>> Furthermore, Olorun was harmed by, and took seriously, Persephone's summons-
"As if sensing his momentary weakness, the dead pounced. They tore at him with fingers and teeth, trying to pull him down. He brought his hands together with a crash, releasing a burst of light that sent the corpses flying. He slumped. His strength was waning."
>> And from the beginning, confirmed that he considered Cerberus powerful enough to consider a threat.
Cerberus was waiting for them when they reached the other side of the river. The gigantic hound paced back and forth, heads lowered, fangs bared. Olorun stopped a respectful distance away and studied the creature. The beast was not a god, but it was powerful nonetheless. "Step aside," he said. "I have no wish to harm you."
(By the by, that Olorun never wanted to harm Cerberus in the first place, and held back offensively at first- and that this was an ambush, against dozens if not hundreds of Persephone's minions- was rather explicitly stated to be why they were losing.)
"Fight," Olorun said, grimly. He'd miscalculated - assumed that Hades and Persephone would see sense, and give in once he arrived at their threshold. And now he'd inadvertently led his allies into an ambush. He had only one recourse. "Agemo - awaken," he whispered. "Awaken, my messenger." He raised his hand, and one of his bracers shimmered as something heretofore invisible became visible - the tiny form of a golden chameleon. It blinked its bulbous eyes at him, awaiting his command. "Go Agemo - find Yemoja," Olorun murmured, as the dead pressed close about him. "Tell the goddess of rivers that I require her aid." The chameleon blinked and was gone a moment later. The dead closed in. He spun, light flaring from his fists, reducing the closest corpses to ash.
So, to summarize,
>>> Olorun/Horus/Hera/Baron Samedi recognized that Cerberus, alone, wouldn't stand a chance against them. However, Cerberus
plus hundreds of Persephone's/Hades' minions was recognized by Olorun to be a losing match, especially when backed up against the River Styx, which they had just got done explaining soul-haxes everything that touches it. So, he called upon an ally of his- that
also happened to be a goddess of rivers, mind- to turn the fight, since Olorun/Horus/Hera/Baron Samedi
+Yemoja, who is fighting right next to her literal domain of specialty, are able to take Cerberus +a large army of Underworld minions (many of whom were fighting right next to/using to their advantage said river.)
"A moment later, the Styx overflowed its banks. The dark waters crashed onto the shore, washing over the dead, but leaving Olorun and the other gods untouched. Cerberus howled as he too was caught in the cascade. The Styx spiralled up in a water spout that contained both the struggling hound and the dead. It spun faster and faster, until each struggling form seemed to blend into the next. As it did so a tall woman, clad in blue, stepped from the waters. Agemo crouched on her shoulder, She raised her hand and gestured,. The Styx crashed back down between its banks with thunderous force. Of Cerberus and the dead, there was no sign."
...the story is as transparent as is possible about how strong it treats its Gods relative to one another, that being that Olorun is a much stronger than normal God- but, like Zeus or Odin, nothing more.
Speaking of,
> Zeus, Comparable Pantheon Leader, was assassinated by Loki, Ao Kuang, and Hel working together (though Loki alone was swiftly going to die- again consistent with "taking on a Pantheon Head alone is
probably suicide".)
>> And, later, Loki stomps Hel in a 1v1 with both the Thunderbolt and the element of surprise (because, of course), and wins out against Neith, Athena, and Mercury. However,
vitally, note that he isn't effortlessly one-shotting them once he has to contend with multiple at once: it is only through outwitting them that he is able to kill Mercury, and even then flees after the fact.
In other words, Zeus's power is not enough to guarantee a victory against multiple "normal" Gods.
> Odin, other Comparable Pantheon Leader,
fought against, and would lost to without outside intervention, a group of frost giants.
The ground was littered with the bodies of gigantic, hideous monsters, things of slab-like muscle and crude runes tattooed upon flesh as blue as the lips of the dead.
"Frost giants," said Hera under her breath, her eyes drawn to the conflict raging within the remnants of the temple.
Not all of the creatures were dead.
As imposing as they were lying slain upon the ground, the frost giants were even more monstrous alive. A trio of the foul creatures stood at the opposite end of the temple, bellowing in rage as they sought to crush a single armoured figure opposing them. Hera could only make out the stranger in half glimpses between the walls of enraged blue flesh, seeing intricate battle armour, a helm crested by a pair of curving horns, and the brilliant flash of a shining spear blade. The warrior had faced down this horde alone, and despite the odds had winnowed his foes down to these final three.
But it was clear to Hera that his strength was waning, and the countless wounds he had suffered were beginning to take their toll. The attacks and footwork she watched were degrading into staggers, sweeps and lunges of the spear relying on momentum over skill or fighting technique. If she did not intervene, he would fall here.
And, if we're going to count Ra and Amaterasu as Pantheon Head-level on top of that as we seem to,
> Ra- as again already discussed- was punched near to death by Ares-
"Zeus, King of Olympus is dead. His surviving brother, Hades, assumed the throne and set the Olympian army upon the Kingdom of the Sun, where Anubis, the suspected murderer, was shielded by the Sun God, Ra. Unmatched in battle, Ares commanded the Olympian assault, crushed the desert city, and defeated Ra. In his rage, the God of War blinded the Egyptian King, thus blackening the sun. Anubis, however, was nowhere to be found. Meanwhile, Athena, guided by Neith, pursued Zeus' true murderer, Loki. Across the Roman countryside the Trickster God traveled, wielding Zeus' mighty thunderbolt with reckless glee."
(In case it was unclear at this point,
the Comics and the Story are the same thing. That is, dismissing the Comics as inconsistent with the story is an illegitimate argument because the comics
are the story.)
> And, finally,
Amaterasu was beat out by Xing Tia, and would have died without Susano'o's intervention (err, "died". As Gaara's pointed out, the concept of death doesn't really apply to Gods and the like properly, which we've seen now in more detail with the Underworld odyssey.)
...
So, back to "the comics are inconsistent with the story"... no they are not? They, again,
are the story to begin with. They depict exactly the same events that are referenced in the Gods' Lore, that occur in the Odyssey (which is the ongoing story of the verse as a whole as the introduction of new Gods shapes the story), etc.
So what, exactly, is any of this occurring inconsistent
with? We have multiple years of material showing over and over that Pantheon Heads are formidable relative to normal Gods, but can be overcome, that they
ca be overcome is vital to the ongoing story, and that said story received an adaptation to comic book format.
Meanwhile, we have yet to see a
single statement, feat, or anything of the sort that gives us any reason whatsoever to assume that SMITE characters would not scale to one another for such ceaselessly frequent feats of fighting on-par with one another, in the same manner that
any other character/s in fiction would. If there is such a statement- if there's something,
anything at all that says "oh, hey, such and such reason is why Gods that are supposed to be infinitely stronger than other Gods yet have failed to demonstrate such, to the point of regularly being contested by even the
minions of said Gods", then by all means share.
I offered such a way out with the Lore/Prime Self Distinction from their current incarnations, but even if that were to be accepted,
> We're still flatly told outright that Gods were, at their peak, beings that inhabited a higher plane of existence relative to mortals.
In other words,
even if we were to assume that their currently incarnate selves on Earth couldn't replicate their Lore feats, and thus Olorun's lore feats are to remain separate from everyone else's, the Gods' true/prime selves would still be Tier 2 of some kind.
The main counter-argument against this that I have seen is that the comics are to be ignored, on account of their contradicting the main story, which again does not work because they
are the story. So, why negate these statements? Sigurd, at least, pointed out that there has been a serious lack of elaboration on this point in the lore, and that seems to be a valid concern. Flatly ignoring them because you claim to be unable to make sense of the story, meanwhile, does not hold basis in anything.
...other notes:
>
Yggdrasil is not galaxy-sized, as is claimed. It is the trunk, specifically, that spans the size of a galaxy- the branches, meanwhile, span the nine separate realms of existence.
"Yggdrasil, the world tree; upon those mighty boughs are held the nine realms of existence, and nests the wise Eagle. Far below, across the galaxy spanning trunk, and beneath the roots, coils Nidhogg, the deplorable serpent."
Which, again, makes sense. In fact, from the looks of things what we may have is more corroborating evidence for the broader multiverse in play (remember King Arthur coming from a parallel reality?), with
the mention of multiple realms:
"At the beginning of time, the Realm of Fire, Muspell, and the Realm of Ice, Niflheim met at the place called Ginnungagap; the void of space. Steam rose and froze again, and from that primordial mixture, Ymir, King of the Frost Giants took shape. From his body dripped other beings that would become the ancestors of Gods, Men, Dwarves, and of course, Giants. Even the mighty Odin must claim Ymir as his grandfather. Yet Ymir, like all giants, was an evil creature and led his Giant brethren against the Gods. After ages of warfare, Odin and his brothers slew the Giant-King and forged the world from his remains."
Note that "the world" is used independently of "all creation", and that realms are described as independent of one another... which I suppose is best to interpret for now as simply space, but
Hel's lore describes Niflheim as a place that souls specifically are thrown into.
With Heimdallr coming soon, I suppose, we should receive elaboration on the way in which the realms relate to one another...
> "The whole point of his (Olorun's) existence is that he's > other Gods"
Based on what, an Inside Look from the design team on his general aesthetic and feel? Yeah, they wanted to make him "feel" like... well, essentially the closest to capital G God we're likely to see in the game any time soon, so they went into detail with the themes of "distance", "dignity", "holy light", etc.
However, we're also flatly told that, if he's stronger than Zeus or Odin, it's not by a noticeable amount, and their actual showings of power relative to the rest of the verse back this up.
And, as already explained, more things make a ruler than simply power (which was even a plot point in the newest Odyssey-)
>
"No." Olorun paused. "But I hoped." He sighed. His claim to the throne was still tenuous...
"Who is this pretender to Zeus' throne? That is the question you ask yourselves, even as you partake of my hospitality. Nor are you alone in asking it." He smiled, and the light around him turned warm and comforting. "I do not begrudge you the question, my friends. You have every right to ask it. You have every right to ask it. You have every right to question my right to lead. As yes, I have given you no reason to trust me ― or follow my commands." His smile faded, and the warmth with it. "But I will. That is why I have requested your presence, especially."
...""Indeed," Izanami said, her voice as cold as the grave. "Such a command smack of hubris. We are not lackey, to be ordered about thus." Her eyes flashed with rage as she pointed a rotting talon at Olorun. "Did you call us here just to flaunt you strength?""
So no, I don't think that the loosely-interpreted authorial intent of people that aren't even in charge of writing the actual story is grounds for ignoring what it is that
actually happened in said story.
>
Vamana still has a Universal-at-minimum feat, are we just going to ignore that?
"Bali offered Vamana an island but Vamana stuck to his request, which Bali granted against the wishes of his advisor. Immediately, Vamana grew to cosmic proportions, crashing through the ceiling of the palace and filling the sky. With one colossal step, he engulfed all the Earth and the Underworld. With a second step, he consumed the heavens. Now, with everything under his two feet, Vamana had nowhere to place his third step. He challenged Bali to go back on his word or offer somewhere else for him to step."
(Note that, in Hindu cosmology,
the Underworld, or
Patala, is one of three entirely separate realms of existence that make up their "universe".)
So, in other words, Vamana's Lore states that in two steps Vamana was able to span the entirety of all of Hindu mythology's known creation, which seems again to constitute multiple realities.
And Vamana is a normal God.
In summary-
Prem.: Claims that the Comics are inconsistent with the story are incoherent because the comics
are the story- that is, they depict the same events as and are taken as seriously by the ongoing narrative as anything in the Odysseys or the Gods' Lore entries,
Prem.: Olorun was somewhat-evenly contested by Cerberus even before he was hit with poison, just as every one of the multiple Pantheon Heads before him had been contested by other Gods and their minions
(and almost universally, too, with obvious extenuating factors that explains why the more powerful God lost- Ra is the sole exception, and Ares in SMITE seems pretty consistently able to curb most any God. He even got a Tier 5 skin for that, if you'll recall. Personally, I'm partial to Gaara's explanation on how this bit would make sense, but whatever the case may be it happened all the same),
Prem.: No statement exists that internally reconciles these showings with the notion that Pantheon Heads are so vastly superior to normal Gods that they cannot be contested, even if it were an actual notion that existed in the verse;
Conc.: Thus, all Gods and the like should be taken to be on a relatively even power keel, as we have no reason to believe otherwise in the face of years of evidence demonstrating that they are such.
Prem.: We could make a Current Self/Lore or Prime Self distinction, and give SMITE characters two keys. However, even that Current Self/Lore or Prime Self distinction would not escape this, due to repeated statements of the Gods' Prime Selves all having occupied a higher plane of existence from a believable source in the canon,
Conc.: So, even were such a distinction to be made, their prime selves would all still be Low 2-C, at least.
So, the only real question I find is left, in light of there being no evidence that refutes the feats or scaling, is whether the Gods' current incarnations should possess a Current Incarnation key of any kind, or not.
There's a bit more ground to cover, but that ought to do it for now. A nice, easy logical-argument format, lined up to make it easy to attack if one has a way in which one of the premises doesn't hold water or necessarily entail the conclusion that succeeds it.
in fact Amaterasu was only JUST added into it, a d it was at a gathering of gods at the request of Olorun.
