Small Revision for Tensura (Light Novel)

[Mizuki67]

Additions

Now, we know that Ultimate Skill users are not bound by the laws of the world.- Light Novel Volume 15- Chapter 1 and Causality is included in the Laws of the World - Light Novel Volume 4, Chapter 3 . As for Magic they do have Causality Manipulation to some extent because Causality is also included in the Laws of the world as well and Magic uses Law of the world to turn nonphysical phenomena into real life - Light Novel Volume 4, Chapter 3

Conclusion
Causality Manipulation for Magic ? Idk

Downgrade
Time Travel to the End of Space and Time
Now I don't know about you guys but I feel like Spiritual Lifeforms travelling to the end of time is kind of hyperbolic. The thing is we never seen anyone go to the end of space and time except for Rimuru or probably Vega since he got BFRed to a place beyond space and time. Let's say Chloe who was a digital lifeform, a step above spiritual lifeforms is able to reach the end of space and time, however she can never travel back in Time with her Time Travel skill so yeah it is not in character for spiritual lifeform to also go there

So the part where spiritual lifeforms could time travel to the end of space and time should be removed as that has never happened in the first place. Their Time Travel will still remain because they are able to cross travel worlds with different time axis. Though I am not sure if this can be considered Time Travel so I would like some input.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Now, we know that Ultimate Skill users are not bound by the laws of the world.- Light Novel Volume 15- Chapter 1 and Causality is included in the Laws of the World - Light Novel Volume 4, Chapter 3 . As for Magic they do have Causality Manipulation to some extent because Causality is also included in the Laws of the world as well and Magic uses Law of the world to turn nonphysical phenomena into real life - Light Novel Volume 4, Chapter 3

Conclusion
Causality Manipulation for Magic ? Idk

Neutral

Time Travel to the End of Space and Time
Now I don't know about you guys but I feel like Spiritual Lifeforms travelling to the end of time is kind of hyperbolic. The thing is we never seen anyone go to the end of space and time except for Rimuru or probably Vega since he got BFRed to a place beyond space and time. Not even Chloe who was a digital lifeform, a step above spiritual lifeforms was able to reach the end of space and time with her Time Travel skill

Should rephrase that a bit; its not that she couldn't reach EoST, its that if she were to be in the same scenario as Rimuru[at EoST], she wouldn't be able to go back to the past

So the part where spiritual lifeforms could time travel to the end of space and time should be removed as that has never happened in the first place. Their Time Travel will still remain because they are able to cross travel worlds with different time axis. Though I am not sure if this can be considered Time Travel so I would like some input.

Agree with this. But the statement itself about the EoST thing can still be used as a "they can retain their form at the end of space and time" because we see Mai and Vega surviving there

 

[Mizuki67]

Should rephrase that a bit; its not that she couldn't reach EoST, its that if she were to be in the same scenario as Rimuru[at EoST], she wouldn't be able to go back to the past

We have never seen any spiritual lifeform reach to end of space time. Vega only ended up there because someone bfred him and Mai she probably has a skill that can dimension travel

You can argue they can survive at that place but other then that no.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Astral Trinity makes sense to me.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Causality Manipulation for Magic ? Idk

Not really, unless the causality of a magic or type of magic can be shown to be specifically manipulated. Magic itself is already a force that ignores conventional causality. Ordinary people need to complete a certain process of lighting a fire but a magician can bypass this process.

Now I don't know about you guys but I feel like Spiritual Lifeforms travelling to the end of time is kind of hyperbolic

Absolutely hyperbolic is trying to say that the connection will not be broken even if they somehow go to the end of space-time.

But the statement itself about the EoST thing can still be used as a "they can retain their form at the end of space and time"

Yes, this part can remain.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

This is a special case that can only happen in Tensura's World

which still doesn't mean it should be outright removed, imo. We can just make it in the description, or at best make it non-combat applicable, but removing it seems too far fetched

Not really, unless the causality of a magic or type of magic can be shown to be specifically manipulated. Magic itself is already a force that ignores conventional causality. Ordinary people need to complete a certain process of lighting a fire but a magician can bypass this process.

Which itself, I don't think, is causality manip as well, unless one wanted to make it a really Limited case.
However, if we put it in a specific way, it might actually warrant [maybe limited] Causality manip:

“Everything has a cause and an effect, and if you figure out the laws behind all that, you might even be able to find a way home…is what you’re saying?”

I was familiar with the World Language. My skill, the Great Sage, used the term when talking to me. It was my familiarity with it that led me to that conclusion.

“…Right. That’s very good, Rimuru. I’m surprised… You understood a concept that I had to spend years researching.”

Take the concept of “returning home,” render it into a set of laws, and translate it into the World Language. Easy for me to say, but trying to discover those laws would take a lifetime of research. Even with that much effort, it may not be possible at all.

But if you were able to interfere with the World Language on a deeper level…

Magic functioned on different principles from natural phenomena. You could use it to create the effect you had in mind, but it was difficult to derive a standard rule set based on that. For example, let’s say you had a candle burning inside a closed glass container. The oxygen would quickly be replaced with carbon dioxide, snuffing out the flames—but if it was magically created flames, it would keep on burning forever. As long as the force and magicules instilled by the caster didn’t run out, the flames will never disappear—although, of course, no caster had infinite power.

Based on this experiment, magical flames clearly ran on different rules from scientific phenomena. It was thus difficult to take one magical procedure and apply it successfully to something else. That, I guess, was why nobody thought about connecting magic to physics in this world before now.

However, the magic in this example is so-called elemental magic.

It seems as if they are basically rendering the concept into the law of causality, rendering what they want into "cause" or "effect" to achieve the other. They basically figure out the first cause and the last effect[such as how to produce a fire, and the production of the fire itself], and then skip the entire process in-between such [skipping the in-between causality]. A Magic user basically makes it so that something they "cause" turns into a specific effect. While normally, the cause of fire being enclosed in glass makes it vanish, magic ignores that "effect" and has its own unique and different effect, aka it continues burning. Which is what the Causality manip page says:

The user can redirect any cause to any effect, undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect, or even separate them entirely, making a specific effect impossible to be caused or a specific cause not producing any effect.

This allows one to achieve virtually anything by redirecting the selected cause to the desired effect. A finger snap that normally causes sound and kinetic force could instead cause a sun explosion or a massive resurrection. The user could also instantly erase anything from existence, by making its existence the cause of its own nonexistence. Another possibility is the instant rewriting of a whole reality, by making Reality X (the current reality) the cause of Reality Y (a tailor-made one).

 

[CodeCCLL]

cross travel worlds with different time

Wait a minute, you confused me too.

Spiritual Lifeforms cannot travel to different timelines on the same world, they can only travel to different worlds. This is just dimensional travel.

which still doesn't mean it should be outright removed, imo. We can just make it in the description, or at best make it non-combat applicable, but removing it seems too far fetched

Now I think time travel is completely irrelevant, why would traveling to different Worlds be time travel?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Now I think time travel is completely irrelevant, why would traveling to different Worlds be time travel?

Because a different world has a different axis of time and its own set of timelines, where the Time Axes are not synchronized.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Because a different world has a different axis of time and its own set of timelines, where the Time Axes are not synchronized.

This has nothing to do with time travel, time travel is traveling to the future or past in the space-time continuum.

Many fictions talk about temporal differences while talking about different space-time continuities. For example; "the time of the world of the living is 1 hour ahead of the time of the world of the dead", but traveling between the worlds of the living and the dead does not mean time travel since they are a different space-time continuum in the first place.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

This has nothing to do with time travel, time travel is traveling to the future or past in the space-time continuum.

Many fictions talk about temporal differences while talking about different space-time continuities. For example; "the time of the world of the living is 1 hour ahead of the time of the world of the dead", but traveling between the worlds of the living and the dead does not mean time travel since they are a different space-time continuum in the first place.

Hmm, I thought that since a world essentially has a different "time", it could work, but reading the time travel page again, I can agree to that, it seems its limited to travel in time of your own space-time, rather then just travelling to a different space-time

Although, should check this part of my reply as well:

Which itself, I don't think, is causality manip as well, unless one wanted to make it a really Limited case.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Although, should check

I checked but my thought is still the same. This is covered by the magic's definition.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Hum they manipulate the laws of the world, including the laws of causality but they do not manipulate causality itself.

 

[Wikisource]

Fine with OP.

 

[Mizuki67]

Wait a minute, you confused me too.

Spiritual Lifeforms cannot travel to different timelines on the same world, they can only travel to different worlds. This is just dimensional travel.

Now I think time travel is completely irrelevant, why would traveling to different Worlds be time travel?

Yeah, I agree with you. I am just not sure if we could completely remove Time Travel

Additions

Now, we know that Ultimate Skill users are not bound by the laws of the world.- Light Novel Volume 15- Chapter 1 and Causality is included in the Laws of the World - Light Novel Volume 4, Chapter 3 . As for Magic they do have Causality Manipulation to some extent because Causality is also included in the Laws of the world as well and Magic uses Law of the world to turn nonphysical phenomena into real life - Light Novel Volume 4, Chapter 3

Conclusion
Causality Manipulation for Magic ? Idk

Downgrade
Time Travel to the End of Space and Time
Now I don't know about you guys but I feel like Spiritual Lifeforms travelling to the end of time is kind of hyperbolic. The thing is we never seen anyone go to the end of space and time except for Rimuru or probably Vega since he got BFRed to a place beyond space and time. Let's say Chloe who was a digital lifeform, a step above spiritual lifeforms is able to reach the end of space and time, however she can never travel back in Time with her Time Travel skill so yeah it is not in character for spiritual lifeform to also go there

So the part where spiritual lifeforms could time travel to the end of space and time should be removed as that has never happened in the first place. Their Time Travel will still remain because they are able to cross travel worlds with different time axis. Though I am not sure if this can be considered Time Travel so I would like some input.

Immeasurable speed for Tensura

vsbattles.fandom.com

I have already made it clear here that no one had used time travel to reach the end of space and time except for maybe Mai or Velgrynd because they are able to time Leap anywhere, it was only shown that it is possible when they were sent out by Feldway or got sent out by the subspace when traveling to other dimensions.