Simplifying Intelligence Ratings

[The_Impress]

So Intelligence ratings have always had the notion, they're arbitrary af and kinda unclear. A reasoning for that comes from our really weird write-ups for them, where they give up a bunch of hypotheticals what a certain level of intellect CAN do, but never clearly stating what distinguishes them, and many factors which feel immensely arbitrary, as such I've decided to rewrite them as such, based on the principle that intelligence ratings are a degree scale rather than independent ratings:

1. Above Average: Characters that show greater cognitive ability than the norm.
2. Gifted: Characters that can hold complete mastery over individual intellectual, creative, or academic fields, and can make breakthroughs within them, with years upon years of research and practice. To put into perspective, this makes them equivalent to real-world experts in their respective fields. Keep in mind that those noted Gifted, can create what may be considered technologies and similar advancements that are impossible with respect to our worlds, albeit with either years to decades of work, by being assisted by the works of others that came before them, or assisting them along.
3. Genius: Characters that can greatly expand upon the fields they possess mastery over, even creating new frontiers within them, even if they may not have had proper training, guidance or even time to reach these conclusions beforehand. To put into perspective, this makes them equivalent to real-world figures regarded geniuses, such as Albert Einstein, S. Ramanujan and Leonardo da Vinci.
4. Extraordinary Genius: Characters that can make humanly impossible advancements, be it the pace they did so in, the explicitly-stated complexity of the task, or the amount of assistance they had in making what'll be considered said advancements. To put into perspective, these characters are incomparable to any real-world figures, and will be considered superhuman by human standards.
5. Supergenius: Characters that are able to affect states of being higher than what our real-world physics can define as, and perform feats of intellect unfathomable or undefineable, from our real-world perspective. This is considered by our standards, the highest level of non-omniscient intellect.

A quick explanation of the choices:

• I have decided to leave out any polymath standards from the ratings, as I feel that isn't relevant to 99% of the characters we'd consider Extraordinary Genius and whatnot, and it's moreso a "range" of intelligence, not a "potency" of it. You can describe their versatility in the intelligence description, and that is where it should belong, and as such you're also able to list multiple intelligence ratings for different fields, as there is no risk of extension.
• A lot of the focus had been on the "technologies made", which makes any non-engineering display of intellect really hard to decipher, so I've chosen to word it as "advancements in their field", which is more versatile and includes the past focus on tech.
  • Additionally, the technology wording put past-era and future-era characters at a laughable disadvantage and advantage respectively, as if the former is making present-day analogues for a computer in the 1100s, it's immensely impressive, but the way the ratings mafe it sound, it wouldn't even hit EG.
• You may note there is overlap in certain higher fields, where they may include lower ones' definitions. This is on purpose, as of course, if you're a Genius you're likely to be able to do things a Gifted-rating character can do in the same field.
• I have decided that making sci-fi tech and similar is NOT genius automatically, it's Gifted, as many times in verses the notion of "advantaged by their era and environment" and "centuries of work" is a common theme present, and it's not tough to extend that if our real-world humanity was given same resources it'll be able to make equivalent tech.
• Genius definition comes from the fusion of ideas by Kant, Schopenhauer and Bertrand Russell, of the ideas of someone able to intrinsically formulate revolutionary concepts regardless of their training, but with the burden reduced for our purposes, I've allowed speed to reach this advancement, as well as the era they've reached it in, a valid factor to argue for a Genius rating, and Extraordinary Genius is just a superhuman extension of the criterias for a Genius rating.
• I'll be blunt, I actually have been having a tough time defining what Supergenius is, the page is kinda attention-deficit at defining it (the infamous "reality-warping fantasy technology even with just household items") and some claims given seem to equate it to just, make tier 1 stuff, which is a hella low burden for alot of verses not listed Supergenius. So help will be needed there.

Hopefully these proposals are agreeable, if not I'll ask for betterment within this thread alone, because the current ones are too poorly stated to be left alone, I feel.

 

[Confluctor]

I think giving examples of each type - certain feats from fiction - might simplify these ratings further. Two would be even better (like one for starting point and other for where it ends)

 

[Antvasima]

My apologies, but I extremely strongly disagree with adjusting our current Intelligence ratings to what you suggest.

I think that we should continue to stick by real world standards for Gifted and Genius intelligence, that Extraordinary Genius should continue to be a wide spectrum far beyond what is humanly possible, and the Supergenius category should continue to have our current extremely strict requirements of being able to warp reality to a ridiculously extreme and varied degree with one's inventions.

I spent a lot of time carefully considering and contructing these ratings and definitely do not want to see them hastily or shoddily overhauled.

Making our current definitions a bit easier to understand is fine, but drastically changing them is definitely not.

 

[Confluctor]

Maybe, but what about adding more examples - feats instead of people who has that rating - to simplify the current page?

 

[Antvasima]

That is obviously fine, yes.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I think the proposals are fine. Finding the intelligence rating for characters who weren't science based was absolute hell and frankly extremely arbitrary. The fact that the tier for intelligence on characters' pages were constantly edited without the feats changing shows how much guess work ad interpterion went into the original tiers.

 

[The_Impress]

My apologies, but I extremely strongly disagree with adjusting our current Intelligence ratings to what you suggest.

I think that we should stick by real world standards for Gifted and Genius intelligence,

...I don't see what I listed deviates from real world standard. I listed real-world equivalents even.

that Extraordinary Genius should continue to be a wide spectrum far beyond what is humanly possible

Yes, I did write that.

the Supergenius category should continue to have our current extremely strict requirements of being able to warp reality to a ridiculously extreme and varied degree with one's inventions.

I genuinely can't decipher what Supergenius entails though, it is filled with buzzwords and irrelevance even according to the definition you gave rn.

 

[The_Impress]

I think giving examples of each type - certain feats from fiction - might simplify these ratings further. Two would be even better (like one for starting point and other for where it ends)

Eh sure

 

[Tllmbrg]

Is it feasible to implement the change?
You’d need to look through most current pages and see where they’d land on the metric no?

Sounds like a lot of work which isn’t simple editing so

 

[The_Impress]

Is it feasible to implement the change?
You’d need to look through most current pages and see where they’d land on the metric no?

Sounds like a lot of work which isn’t simple editing so

I mean the same amount of work which was done to get these ratings on files. Barely any ratings change anyway, it's just removing unnecessary wording off the current listings, and conjuring up a standard off what's already written.

 

[Antvasima]

...I don't see what I listed deviates from real world standard. I listed real-world equivalents even.

Complete mastery over an advanced subject is far too strict a requirement for Gifted Intelligence, and people can be real world geniuses without being on a level with polymaths such as Leonardo DaVinci.

Yes, I did write that.

You shifted the focus from potency to diversity, as you stated yourself, which is inappropriate. I am more of the A.I. quantum supercomputer analytical skills and futuristic physics-defying technology school.

I genuinely can't decipher what Supergenius entails though, it is filled with buzzwords and irrelevance even according to the definition you gave rn.

It is very simply to understand. Characters who can warp reality in virtually any way they want on an absolutely massive scale with their inventions qualify. Again, I largely want us to go by the potency of character feats to gauge Intelligence, as it is the most reliable generalised measuring tool that we have available.

 

[The_Impress]

Again for abit of clarity, purpose isn't, "replace intelligence ratings", it's just a rewrite of existing ones to be clearer and concise.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I see
Well neutral then (Although personally I’d suggest some changes to Supergenuis since I think people like Batman qualify, I think the need to use mundane resources is unneeded)

 

[Tllmbrg]

But idc enough to actually push for it

 

[Antvasima]

Is it feasible to implement the change?
You’d need to look through most current pages and see where they’d land on the metric no?

Sounds like a lot of work which isn’t simple editing so

I also think that this seems like change for the sake of change without any constructive benefits. In fact, I largely find this detrimental and extremely time-consuming in combination.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I am currently both busy IRL and with other forum tasks, so this in my view largely destructive thread came at a bad time for me.

 

[The_Impress]

Complete mastery over an advanced subject is far too strict a requirement for Gifted Intelligence, and people can be real world geniuses without being on a level with polymaths such as Leonardo DaVinci.

By most standards Da Vinci had complete mastery over his fields of painting and engineering, given era

You shifted the focus from potency to diversity, as you stated yourself, which is inappropriate. I am more of the A.I. quantum supercomputer analytical skills and futuristic physics-defying technology school.

..No, I literally said, it's not about diversity, that's why I removed polymath as a requirement.

• I have decided to leave out any polymath standards from the ratings, as I feel that isn't relevant to 99% of the characters we'd consider Extraordinary Genius and whatnot, and it's moreso a "range" of intelligence, not a "potency" of it. You can describe their versatility in the intelligence description, and that is where it should belong, and as such you're also able to list multiple intelligence ratings for different fields, as there is no risk of extension.

It is very simply to understand. Characters who can warp reality in virtually any way they want on an absolutely massive scale qualify. Again, I largely want us to go by the potency of character feats to gauge Intelligence, as it is the most reliable generalised measuring tool that we have available.

...so Reality Warping tech?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Complete mastery over an advanced subject is far too strict a requirement for Gifted Intelligence, and people can be real world geniuses without being on a level with polymaths such as Leonardo DaVinci.

You shifted the focus from potency to diversity, as you stated yourself, which is inappropriate. I am more of the A.I. quantum supercomputer analytical skills and futuristic physics-defying technology school.

It is very simply to understand. Characters who can warp reality in virtually any way they want on an absolutely massive scale qualify. Again, I largely want us to go by the potency of character feats to gauge Intelligence, as it is the most reliable generalised measuring tool that we have available.

Iunno. Considering that virtually no one I've talked to understands the intelligence ratings (including myself and several other staff members), I think that's a clear sign they're not easy to understand

 

[Antvasima]

By most standards Da Vinci had complete mastery over his fields.

Yes, but real world geniuses are usually focused in a single area.

..No, I literally said, it's not about diversity, that's why I removed polymath as a requirement.

My apologies for the misunderstanding then. I don't think that being a polymath is currently required to qualify though. If so, the relevant sentence should probably be slightly reworded.

...so Reality Warping tech?

No, that is just Extraordinary Genius. To qualify for Supergenius an extraordinary variety of extremely advanced reality-warping technology is required as a minimum, preferably up to an at least cosmic scale.

 

[Antvasima]

Iunno. Considering that virtually no one I've talked to understands the intelligence ratings (including myself and several other staff members), I think that's a clear sign they're not easy to understand

Well, I am obviously fine with making them easier to understand, but not overhauling the fundamental requirements for each definition/level/category/type within it.

 

[The_Impress]

Yes, but real world geniuses are usually focused in a single area.

No but the concept is, da Vinci did have a mastery. Most traditionally gifted individuals have a mastery of their subjects, it's whatmakes them gifted.

My apologies for the misunderstanding then. I don't think that being a polymath is currently required to qualify though. If so, the relevant sentence should probably be slightly reworded.

It is for Extraordinary Genius and higher, yeah

Extraordinary Genius: Individuals whose knowledge spreads over many fields of science

Supergenius: ...usually extensive mastery of most, or all, branches of science.

These are irrelevant then

No, that is just Extraordinary Genius. To qualify for Supergenius an extraordinary variety of extremely reality-warping technology is required as a minimum, preferably up to an at least cosmic scale.

So reality warping up to tier 1 scale? I do word it that way:

Supergenius: Characters that are able to affect states of being higher than what our real-world physics can define as, and perform feats of intellect unfathomable or undefineable, from our real-world perspective. This is considered by our standards, the highest level of non-omniscient intellect.

If you can tell me the exact tier you'd prefer the Supergenius listing to be I can adjust it that way.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Is the idea of discussing to overhaul Supergenuis something okay to do in this CRT or?
Frankly I think that rating is the most baffling and arbitrary rating and it’s qualifications are kinda wack if you ask me

 

[The_Impress]

Is the idea of discussing to overhaul Supergenuis something okay to do in this CRT or?
Frankly I think that rating is the most baffling and arbitrary rating and it’s qualifications are kinda wack if you ask me

Irrelevant to thread topic

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I may comment later how I view intelligence ratings; as I kind of feel like most of them are considering academic fields to be the only intelligence category as opposed to things like combat strategist intellect being separate from academic stuff; mostly for gifted and genius. Extraordinary Genius and Supergenius are both things only crazy smart scientists could really achieve.

 

[Antvasima]

No but the concept is, da Vinci did have a mastery. Most traditionally gifted individuals have a mastery of their subjects, it's what makes them gifted.

Not necessarily. Real world people with extrenely high analytical intelligence can also qualify as Gifted for example.

It is for Extraordinary Genius and higher, yeah

Ah. I thought that you meant regular Genius.

These are irrelevant then

Not for an indepth intellectual mastery over the fundamental nature of reality itself, for the beyond real world ratings, no, but it is not the only way to qualify, as I think has been specified in our current descriptions.

So reality warping up to tier 1 scale? I do word it that way:

If you can tell me the exact tier you'd prefer the Supergenius listing to be I can adjust it that way.

It can also sometimes be reached through sheer variety and extreme examples of reality warping, such as in the case of Lum who can easily create customised alternate futures, and simply building a bomb that can blow up a universe is not diverse enough to qualify. It isn't just a matter of tier, but it certainly helps.

 

[Antvasima]

I may comment later how I view intelligence ratings; as I kind of feel like most of them are considering academic fields to be the only intelligence category as opposed to things like combat strategist intellect being separate from academic stuff; mostly for gifted and genius. Extraordinary Genius and Supergenius are both things only crazy smart scientists could really achieve.

Well, somebody with quantum supercomputer levels of learning, processing, or analytical ability can certainly qualify for Extraordinary Genius, for example, but it is harder to define non-scientists as Supergeniuses, yes. Help with improving on our definitions in this area would be appreciated.

 

[The_Impress]

See the issue is, current definition of Gifted:

Gifted: Character that demonstrate high reasoning ability, can master concepts with few repetitions, and display high performance capability in intellectual, creative, or specific academic fields.

Either this is worded poor, or genuinely the concept behind the ratings is, if you have a hobby you're a natural at, or have a degree, you're Gifted. I am serious, these are all factors you can reach by the level defined, by just being good at drawing as a kid.

That burden is so easy to meet it's downright trivial, and we just don't treat it this way.

If it's something else, please clarify because I am genuinely confused, or if it's not, this rating is redundant.

Not for an indepth intellectual mastery over the fundamental nature of reality itself, for the beyond real world ratings, no, but it is not the only way to qualify, as I think has been specified in our current descriptions.

That's either redundant (they could've just gotten EG off a single field anyhow) or just a diversity thing though :V

It can also sometimes be reached through sheer variety and extreme examples of reality warping, such as in the case of Lum who can easily create customised alternate futures, and simply building a bomb that can blow up a universe is not diverse enough to qualify. It isn't just a matter of tier, but it certainly helps.

But that's too vague, from the sound of it to qualify for Supergenius, you have to qualify for two unspecified criterias, the amount of reality warping you're doing, and the scale of the structure you're affecting.

Either of these should have a rigid definition at least, otherwise it's a non-descript rating.

 

[Antvasima]

See the issue is, current definition of Gifted:

Either this is worded poor, or genuinely the concept behind the ratings is, if you have a hobby you're a natural at, or have a degree, you're Gifted. I am serious, these are all factors you can reach by the level defined, by just being good at drawing as a kid.

That burden is so easy to meet it's downright trivial, and we just don't treat it this way.

If it's something else, please clarify because I am genuinely confused, or if it's not, this rating is redundant.

I do not really see what the problem here is. I think that the rating is straightforward and well-defined enough to understand quite easily. It isn't nearly as uncommon with gifted people in the real world as actual geniuses.

If the word "creative" can somehow be interpreted as "artistic only" which in turn can somehow be misinterpreted as "being good at drawing as a kid", I suppose we might remove it, but I just don't see how it can easily be interpreted as that.

That's either redundant (they could've just gotten EG off a single field anyhow) or just a diversity thing though :V

Extraordinary Genius is for characters that are clearly considerably above theorethical peak human capacity, and has a wide range upwards from that. It isn't that hard to understand I think.

But that's too vague, from the sound of it to qualify for Supergenius, you have to qualify for two unspecified criterias, the amount of reality warping you're doing, and the scale of the structure you're affecting.

Either of these should have a rigid definition at least, otherwise it's a non-descript rating.

Well, preferably an at least cosmic (3-A) scale should be combined with extremely varied and advanced reality-warping technology, but again, I am fine with if we make our current definitions easier to understand. I mainly just don't want to make the intelligence types either significantly easier or harder to reach.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Above Average and Gifted are both very simple intelligence areas; the latter is being mild to moderately above the average human where as gifted is significantly above average; and could apply to pretty much any type of field. Genius is pretty much on par with some of the world's greatest scientists like Isaac Newton or Stephen Hawking yeah for Scientifics. Combat Genius is basically someone who can like predict what martial arts move their opponent makes just by reading their breathe patterns or looking into their eyes and what not and/or being a master in many different forms of martial arts.

I described Extraordinary Genius as basically having the intellect comparable to a futuristic super computer. And Supergenius is probably the one that often requires the most explanation. But if there was a way to describe them in one sentence, it's the intellect required to construct god tier level technologies using standard materials. Though, "God Tier level technologies" is what has a loose terms; whether it be Tier 2 reality warping technologies or extremely advanced levels of subjective reality technologies.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it is not necessary to use common household items to construct said god-level technology, but it certainly helps.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, it is not necessary to use common household items to construct said god-level technology, but it certainly helps.

No, I just think using household items as a requirement is arbitrary as hell. Just standard machine material should be fine as a baseline.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I mean, it's inherently less impressive is if they just found some artifact that technically already had most of the power and they more or less just made use of and/or tampered with it as opposed to building something of comparable power from scratch. I saw the former example as an Extraordinary Genius level intellect.

 

[Antvasima]

No, I just think using household items as a requirement is arbitrary as hell. Just standard machine material should be fine as a baseline.

Yes, we currently do not require creating fantasy technology in this manner to qualify as far as I am aware.

 

[Antvasima]

I mean, it's inherently less impressive is if they just found some artifact that technically already had most of the power and they more or less just made use of and/or tampered with it as opposed to building something of comparable power from scratch. I saw the former example as an Extraordinary Genius level intellect.

Yes, of course, but inventing and building something from scratch is enough. Using regular household items for this purpose is not necessary.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Another note, I was never the one who said "It has to be standard household items and nothing beyond that", that was Zark who mentioned it. I usually say typical nerd gear, which could mean anything. It doesn't really matter what specific materials, but more so just the genius crafting the god tier technology from scratch.

 

[The_Impress]

I do not really see what the problem here is. I think that the rating is straightforward and well-defined enough to understand quite easily. It isn't nearly as uncommon with gifted people in the real world as actual geniuses.

If the word "creative" can somehow be interpreted as "artistic only" which in turn can somehow be misinterpreted as "being good at drawing as a kid", I suppose we might remove it, but I just don't see how it can easily be interpreted as that.

Because it describes an unspecified degree of mastery in a creative field, which, “being good at drawing as a kid” qualifies.

”Real-life gifted people” is far more loosely defined than real-world geniuses, again, far lower things can be under that.

Extraordinary Genius is for characters that are clearly considerably above theorethical peak human capacity, and has a wide range upwards from that. It isn't that hard to understand I think.

It isn’t hard to think, it’s redundant. Keeping that point really means nothing, and it gives the allusion that being a polymath alone is enough to get the rating, which is clearly not what we’re going for

Well, preferably an at least cosmic (3-A) scale should be combined with extremely varied and advanced reality-warping technology, but again, I am fine with if we make our current definitions easier to understand. I mainly just don't want to make the intelligence types either significantly easier or harder to reach.

So a 3-A structure at bare minimum is the fixed value, k.

Yes, we currently do not require creating fantasy technology in this manner to qualify as far as I am aware.

We do actually:

advanced physics-defying and reality-warping fantasy technology even with just household items

and we also list this gem:

outsmarting even other extremely intelligent individuals.

This you can do just by being greater in other fields.

Another note, I was never the one who said "It has to be standard household items and nothing beyond that", that was Zark who mentioned it.

You typed that kinda accusatory lol

 

[Antvasima]

Another note, I was never the one who said "It has to be standard household items and nothing beyond that", that was Zark who mentioned it. I usually say typical nerd gear, which could mean anything. It doesn't really matter what specific materials, but more so just the genius crafting the god tier technology from scratch.

Yes. Agreed.

 

[Antvasima]

Because it describes an unspecified degree of mastery in a creative field, which, “being good at drawing as a kid” qualifies.

”Real-life gifted people” is far more loosely defined than real-world geniuses, again, far lower things can be under that.

That is the usual real world definition to include reasonably skilled scientists and computer programmers, accomplished doctors, and the like. But again, we can remove the "creative field" mention if you think that it is easy to misunderstand as simply being very good at drawing.

It isn’t hard to think, it’s redundant. Keeping that point really means nothing, and it gives the allusion that being a polymath alone is enough to get the rating, which is clearly not what we’re going for

Being a real world polymath is enough to qualify for a regular Genius rating, but it obviously requires raw calculation, processing, analysis, or invention skills considerably beyond the upper limits of the human brain to qualify for Extraordinary Genius.

So a 3-A structure at bare minimum is the fixed value, k.

We mention the sentence "cosmic scale" already, as far as I know, yes, so that is pretty self-evident already, or so I think.

We do actually:

Okay, the "even with just household items" phrase should probably be removed, yes.

and we also list this gem:

This you can do just by being greater in other fields.

That is redundant and should also be removed. Agreed.

 

[Antvasima]

@The_Impress @DarkDragonMedeus @Confluctor

It is important that we finish our revisions here, preferably the ones that I accepted earlier.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, that looks fine.