Regarding our Supergenius intelligence statistic (Staff only)

[Antvasima]

One could also consider to place a note about resources. Like e.g. building a reality warping device from a reality warping gem is not that impressive, compared to doing it without such a thing. But that probably goes beyond the confines of what this thread is about...

I personally would not mind that. I just want our standards for Supergenius to be at least as strict as, and considerably less-self-contradictory than, currently.

 

[Antvasima]

All I intend to say is that our intelligence metrics 'shouldn't' be based on what has been suggested in the OP. I don't even think adding a note about resources is a satisfactory compromise - it's just strange and arbitrary to denote that a particular level of intelligence can only be reached by an extremely specific method that we prescribe to it. Even more so when, as shown, what that method says about someone's intelligence changes with the context it occurs in.

Why is basing the Supergenius term on sheer enormous versatility combined with scale a bad idea? It seems like our least bad option here. I do not mind expanding the definitions according to my last few replies above, but I definitely do not support making the term almost meaningless in terms of distinction from Extraordinary Genius, for example.

 

[Antvasima]

My thoughts on this echo Lonkitt's. This is extra work for very little gain.

You've always been weirdly elitist about this particular section of our Intelligence page Ant. I would please ask to not let it seep into actual wiki wide revisions in the future. I don't think it benefits us.

It is not a wiki-wide revision. I do not think that almost any characters that currently have the Supergenius statistic will be affected.

And as I stated above, if somebody can come up with a very good definition for an in-between intelligence statistic, that is fine with me, but as it is I have a rather clear vision about what Supergenius should fundamentally mean, and that it should be a somewhat exclusive and hard to reach statistic, preferably without self-contradictions.

 

[Deagonx]

I think the issue is multi-pronged. We'll always have people arbitrarily pursuing the highest rating possible, that's just part of the gig. The other is that "supergenius" is relatively common nomenclature whereas "extraordinary genius" is not, so supergenius is the natural terminology for people to gravitate to and there will always be friction in placing that behind a certain threshold. Lastly the notion of intelligence (especially comparative intelligence) is fairly complicated and subjective, and thus will always be the subject of a lot of debate.

I don't mind clarifying the standards (and I think it would be especially prudent to add some clarifications regarding the power threshold, as it is being leveraged in ways that weren't intended, but we must also accept that this will just always be a point of controversy.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[FinePoint]

The highest level of non-omniscient intellect, possessed by individuals with unfathomably superhuman intelligence who are capable of creating impossibly advanced physics-defying and reality-warping fantasy technology for extremely diverse purposes.

Take note that for a Supergenius rating to be given based on technological prowess, the character in question should be able to essentially warp reality as they wish on an at least universal (3-A) scale with their inventions

I agree that based on the definition, 3-A seems like an illogical and arbitrary dividing point. However, I also think Low 2-C is an unfair one.

Wouldn't "At least High 3-A" make more sense? This would mean they can use their intelligence to manipulate their world at least at an infinite level.

Low 2-C brings assumptions about the structure of the universe into play, sort of forcing it to allow for time or higher dimensions to be manipulated from within.
Even in the context of "warping reality as they wish on a universal scale"- there are many universes which fairly exclude time or higher dimensions as something people can manipulate regardless of intelligence, since they and everything around them exists within its framework, instead requiring some sort of power which is already elevated to this level. There's also many different ways universes interpret time in the first place, with many assuming that it's literally impossible to change for logical reasons related to causality and history.

Therefore, I think "High 3-A" is more reasonable because it represents a level of intelligence which is infinitely beyond normal human capability, but independent from the rules of a vast majority of universal models. Manipulating entire timelines would easily pass this bar, but to have it be a requirement seems to me to be mixing intelligence and attack potency too much. We are meant to be measuring their intelligence, rather than what the specific rules of their universe allows for.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree that based on the definition, 3-A seems like an illogical and arbitrary dividing point. However, I also think Low 2-C is an unfair one.

Wouldn't "At least High 3-A" make more sense? This would mean they can use their intelligence to manipulate their world at least at an infinite level.

Low 2-C brings assumptions about the structure of the universe into play, sort of forcing it to allow for time or higher dimensions to be manipulated from within.
Even in the context of "warping reality as they wish on a universal scale"- there are many universes which fairly exclude time or higher dimensions as something people can manipulate regardless of intelligence, since they and everything around them exists within its framework, instead requiring some sort of power which is already elevated to this level. There's also many different ways universes interpret time in the first place, with many assuming that it's literally impossible to change for logical reasons related to causality and history.

Therefore, I think "High 3-A" is more reasonable because it represents a level of intelligence which is infinitely beyond normal human capability, but independent from the rules of a vast majority of universal models. Manipulating entire timelines would easily pass this bar, but to have it be a requirement seems to me to be mixing intelligence and attack potency too much. We are meant to be measuring their intelligence, rather than what the specific rules of their universe allows for.

So you basically think inventing perpetual motion machines from scratch is another method to get Supergenius? I wouldn't mind that too much.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that "on an at least base-level infinite scale" is better than what we have currently at least, but there were a few other suggestions about clarifications for intelligence feats that do not relate to technological inventions as well, so help with wordings for additions to our current definitions would be very appreciated.

 

[FinePoint]

So you basically think inventing perpetual motion machines from scratch is another method to get Supergenius? I wouldn't mind that too much.

If that perpetual motion machine could actually have unlimited effect on its environment, sure. For example, inventing a power source and machine to power a bomb which would warp everything in existence with an infinitely powerful explosion (without access to an existing source of infinite energy).

It seems to me like Ant wants Supergenius to refer to a level of intelligence which allows for that person to be unrestricted in the level to which they can manipulate their environment, aka, to an infinite degree.

Even someone with all theoretical knowledge could not create infinite energy, but could theoretically create any amount of energy below that, and so to me it seems like the logical divider where the level of intelligence moves from some higher level of normal intelligence and into a fictional, unfathomable intelligence.

Well, I suppose that "on an at least base-level infinite scale" is better than what we have currently at least, but there were a few other suggestions about clarifications for intelligence feats that do not relate to technological inventions as well, so help with wordings for additions to our current definitions would be very appreciated.

If we use a simpler basis of "infinite" for our definition, it also becomes a lot easier to define outside the terms of technology or science, since we no longer need to hinge ourselves on timelines, dimensions, or anything more abstract.

Some examples:
1.) Reading and comprehending an infinite amount of knowledge, such as the entirety of a magical tome which contains all past, present, and future knowledge.
2.) Creating from scratch the framework of a type of magic which has infinite potential using only existing finite tools and knowledge.
3.) Being intelligent enough to calculate every possibility until the end of time, allowing them to manipulate the universe at this scale indirectly and be perfectly clairvoyant.
4.) Creating any device with infinite output or an infinite structure from finite ingredients.
5.) Calculating and manipulating concepts/laws which affect all of reality with finite ingredients.

I'd suggest something like:

---

Supergenius: The highest level of non-omniscient intellect, possessed by individuals with unfathomably superhuman intelligence which exceeds finite measure or normal logical limits, being able to comprehend or utilize information on a practically infinite scale.

For example, to reach this level from inventions, these characters should be able to use them to essentially manipulate reality however they wish on at least an infinite universal (High 3-A) scale, or even overpower Tier 1 entities in higher cases. Simply defying the law of physics is very common for Extraordinary Geniuses as well and is not nearly enough to qualify.

---

This revised definition gets the same point across without explicitly mentioning technology or science, while making it clear that this level of intelligence should be unlimited from a human perspective.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the word "practically" should be dropped, and this should be a complement to our current Supergenius standards, not a replacement. The requirement of massively extreme versatility should still be included along with the previous requirements. This should not remotely be a matter of raw power only, as that can be affected by the scale and available power-sources of a fictional setting.

Being able to process literally infinite amounts of information seems like a good addition though.

 

[FinePoint]

Well, the word "practically" should be dropped, and this should be a complement to our current Supergenius standards, not a replacement. The requirement of massively extreme versatility should still be included along with the previous requirements. This should not remotely be a matter of raw power only, as that can be affected by the scale and available power-sources of a fictional setting.

Being able to process literally infinite amounts of information seems like a good addition though.

Well, versatility is a lot more subjective and vague, which makes it harder to neatly define in a way that everyone will understand.
For example, adding "massively extreme" as you have done is essentially meaningless to anybody but you, and assigning a definite number of uses would be arbitrary, and requiring infinite versatility would be impossible to prove.

If you want to account for the resources they have, then why not just make the definition relative?
If someone access to infinite resources, then they should need to make something qualitatively superior with them, like making a Low 2-C device from High 3-A ingredients.

Before I attempt that, here is my previous attempt at a more general description with your suggested revisions. I originally used "practically" to try and address the possibility of initial resources which were already infinite, but in hindsight, I think "relatively" makes far more sense in that case.

---

Supergenius: The highest level of non-omniscient intellect, possessed by individuals with unfathomably superhuman intelligence which exceeds finite measure or normal logical limits, being able to comprehend or utilize information on a relatively infinite scale and with extremely high versatility.

For example, to reach this level from inventions, these characters should be able to use them to essentially manipulate reality however they wish on at least an infinite universal (High 3-A) scale, or even overpower Tier 1 entities in higher cases. Simply defying the law of physics is very common for Extraordinary Geniuses as well and is not nearly enough to qualify.

---

And here is an attempt to tweak the second part to capture my second idea:

---

"For example, to reach this level from inventions, these characters should be able to use them to essentially manipulate reality however they wish on a scale which is at least infinitely superior to the resources available to them, such as an infinite universal scale (High 3-A) from traditionally finite resources, or an entire timeline (Low 2-C) from infinite resources, or even overpowering Tier 1 entities in higher cases. Simply defying the law of physics is very common for Extraordinary Geniuses as well and is not nearly enough to qualify."

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Low 2-A

Low 2-C*

 

[Antvasima]

I am sorry, but we will not lessen or significantly modify our current standards in all of the ways that you suggest above. Our requirement that characters need to display the ability to warp reality in virtually any way they wish with their inventions in order to qualify via scientific skills should remain.

However, I am perfectly fine with combining that requirement with a literally infinite scale to their the power of their inventions, and that another way to qualify would be to be able to process and understand literally infinite amounts of information, or designing entire realities of infinite complexity through sheer skill should also qualify.

I will check to see if I can come up with a less drastically modified draft text.

 

[Antvasima]

"Supergenius:

The highest level of non-omniscient intellect, possessed by individuals with unfathomably superhuman intelligence who are capable of creating impossibly advanced physics-defying and reality-warping fantasy technology for enormously diverse purposes.

In order to qualify for a Supergenius rating based on technological prowess, a character should be able to essentially warp reality in virtually any way that they wish on an at least base level infinite (High 3-A) scale with their inventions, or even use them to overpower tier 1 entities for higher cases. Simply defying the laws of physics with futuristic technology is very common for Extraordinary Geniuses as well. Meaning that there should be an enormous amount of versatility combined with an infinite scale of power and preferably range.

Other ways to qualify through non-technological means are to be able to process and understand literally infinite amounts of information, or to design entire realities of infinite complexity through skill and comprehension, rather than just wishing them into existence, and feats of a comparable scale may also reach a Supergenius rating."

 

[Antvasima]

"Supergenius:

The highest level of non-omniscient intellect, possessed by individuals with unfathomably superhuman intelligence who are capable of creating impossibly advanced physics-defying and reality-warping fantasy technology for enormously diverse purposes.

In order to qualify for a Supergenius rating based on technological prowess, a character should be able to essentially warp reality in virtually any way that they wish on an at least base level infinite (High 3-A) scale with their inventions, or even use them to overpower tier 1 entities for higher cases. Simply defying the laws of physics with futuristic technology is very common for Extraordinary Geniuses as well. Meaning that there should be an enormous amount of versatility combined with an infinite scale of power and preferably range.

Other ways to qualify through non-technological means are to be able to process and understand literally infinite amounts of information, or to design entire realities of infinite complexity through skill and comprehension, rather than just wishing them into existence, and feats of a comparable scale may also reach a Supergenius rating."

@Armorchompy @Flashlight237 @DarkDragonMedeus @Deagonx @LordGriffin1000 @Lonkitt @Qawsedf234 @M3X_2.0 @CloverDragon03 @DontTalkDT @Mr._Bambu @Firestorm808 @Crabwhale @DarkGrath

Would this be an improvement to our current standards?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for your help.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Armorchompy @Flashlight237 @DarkDragonMedeus @Deagonx @LordGriffin1000 @Lonkitt @Qawsedf234 @M3X_2.0 @CloverDragon03 @DontTalkDT @Mr._Bambu @Firestorm808 @Crabwhale @DarkGrath

Would this be an improvement to our current standards?

Seems okay.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The new draft looks good

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for your support.

 

[FinePoint]

I am sorry, but we will not lessen or significantly modify our current standards in all of the ways that you suggest above. Our requirement that characters need to display the ability to warp reality in virtually any way they wish with their inventions in order to qualify via scientific skills should remain.

However, I am perfectly fine with combining that requirement with a literally infinite scale to their the power of their inventions, and that another way to qualify would be to be able to process and understand literally infinite amounts of information, or designing entire realities of infinite complexity through sheer skill should also qualify.

I will check to see if I can come up with a less drastically modified draft text.

It is alright. That part was more of a potential idea to consider than anything I was actually actively advocating for, if that makes sense.
Multiple people had brought up in this thread that this rating can sometimes be complicated by technology fitting this description in the context that the resources available to the character already afforded a lot of power or versatility to begin with. Though, I also think simply considering that fact on a case-by-case basis would probably be enough, and same with the vagueness.

Anyway, thank you for considering my other ideas. The new draft seems to far clearer the paint the picture of what you seemed to be going for, and will probably reduce confusion.

 

[Antvasima]

It is alright. That part was more of a potential idea to consider than anything I was actually actively advocating for, if that makes sense.
Multiple people had brought up in this thread that this rating can sometimes be complicated by technology fitting this description in the context that the resources available to the character already afforded a lot of power or versatility to begin with.

That is a good point. I am open for suggestions for a minor modification to my suggested draft text above to clarify that characters have to invent things on their own, not mostly rely on already extremely futuristic settings.

Though, I also think simply considering that fact on a case-by-case basis would probably be enough, and same with the vagueness.

Okay.

Anyway, thank you for considering my other ideas. The new draft seems to far clearer the paint the picture of what you seemed to be going for, and will probably reduce confusion.

No problem, and thank you for your support.

 

[Antvasima]

That is a good point. I am open for suggestions for a minor modification to my suggested draft text above to clarify that characters have to invent things on their own, not mostly rely on already extremely futuristic settings.

Never mind. It should be easily handled by myself.

How about this instead then?

"Supergenius:

The highest level of non-omniscient intellect, possessed by individuals with unfathomably superhuman intelligence who are capable of creating impossibly advanced physics-defying and reality-warping fantasy technology for enormously diverse purposes.

In order to qualify for a Supergenius rating based on technological prowess, a character should be able to essentially warp reality in virtually any way that they wish on an at least base level infinite (High 3-A) scale with their inventions, or even use them to overpower tier 1 entities for higher cases. Simply defying the laws of physics with futuristic technology is very common for Extraordinary Geniuses as well. Meaning that there should be an enormous amount of versatility combined with an infinite scale of power and preferably range.

However, take note that, in order to qualify, characters genuinely have to invent things on their own, not mostly rely on already extremely futuristic settings.

Other ways to qualify through non-technological means are to be able to process and understand literally infinite amounts of information, or to design entire realities of infinite complexity through skill and comprehension, rather than just wishing them into existence, and feats of a comparable scale may also reach a Supergenius rating."

 

[M3X_2.0]

@Armorchompy @Flashlight237 @DarkDragonMedeus @Deagonx @LordGriffin1000 @Lonkitt @Qawsedf234 @M3X_2.0 @CloverDragon03 @DontTalkDT @Mr._Bambu @Firestorm808 @Crabwhale @DarkGrath

Would this be an improvement to our current standards?

Looks great.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for your help.

 

[Armorchompy]

aye, seems better

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. Is it fine if I apply the changes now, or should we wait for further input?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Never mind. It should be easily handled by myself.

How about this instead then?

"Supergenius:

The highest level of non-omniscient intellect, possessed by individuals with unfathomably superhuman intelligence who are capable of creating impossibly advanced physics-defying and reality-warping fantasy technology for enormously diverse purposes.

In order to qualify for a Supergenius rating based on technological prowess, a character should be able to essentially warp reality in virtually any way that they wish on an at least base level infinite (High 3-A) scale with their inventions, or even use them to overpower tier 1 entities for higher cases. Simply defying the laws of physics with futuristic technology is very common for Extraordinary Geniuses as well. Meaning that there should be an enormous amount of versatility combined with an infinite scale of power and preferably range.

However, take note that, in order to qualify, characters genuinely have to invent things on their own, not mostly rely on already extremely futuristic settings.

Other ways to qualify through non-technological means are to be able to process and understand literally infinite amounts of information, or to design entire realities of infinite complexity through skill and comprehension, rather than just wishing them into existence, and feats of a comparable scale may also reach a Supergenius rating."

Seems fine like that.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. I will apply the new wording then.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Thank you. I will apply the new wording then.

Can we close this thread?

 

[Antvasima]

I think so, yes.

I will do so now. Thank you to everybody who helped out here.