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Showa Godzilla vs Goku

ZillerBucko said:
well godzilla is slower than goku so speed equal kinda does help actually
goku may be stronger but, aren't we only upscaling from frieza saga?

to respond to both you and orange, I'd like to note that reactive evolution has already been shown to increase godzilla's regen by quite a lot in the mechagodzilla fight. On top of that, godzilla already had adapted to titanosaurus having significantly superior physical capabilities, who was able to push godzilla away with just the wind of his attacks
he even adapts to hedorah's flight, though that may be more of an intelligence feat
and it should be noted that godzilla is capable of beating the shit out of megalon and gigan simultaneously, which also may contribute to his ability to fight more agile opponents since he could keep up with 2 monsters of similar speed simultanoeusly
also again, android saga goku not cell saga, the blasting cell away feat is kinda not relevant
and hasn't cell been wounded like that multiple times anyways? His durability comes from his regen source, which I don't believe goku destroyed
so it's not all that impressive
Click to expand...
1- goku fought cell and proved to be a challenge for him. Cell is literally goku but better, aka goku bested someone that's literally him, but on steroids with skill alone, he was even capeable of using the after image [Cell was faster, and was a fighter with all of goku's abilities and more, literally] and still managed to work on him. So no, skill, and H2h is in favour of goku, massively. And with his ki sensing and etc, Godzilla has small chances of actually landing a hit, and speed equal helps goku not Godzilla, goku is able to use after image on people that are better and faster than him, so goku would be almost untouchable from Godzilla point of view, and with the kamehameha is a cherry on top
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Yes it does help but that isn't the point, goku's size and agility makes him a hard target for Godzilla, and yes Goku's stronger but what does upscaling have to do with anything?
Click to expand...
Kaiju King is the one that brought it up, so I'm unsure if goku actually has any kind of ap advantage here
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Is the godzilla fighting here the same godzilla as the one who fought mega godzilla? If yes then that still isn't really impressive since his regen is still really bad, maybe it could improve to heal worse wounds but it's overtime so it's still barely applicable.
The second example is reactive evolution, which Goku has and I've already explained how potent it is, caulifula for example improved to go from losing to base goku to being able to keep up with him in SSJ2 just simply through her saiyan genes.
godzilla can fly here so it's irrelevant really.
That depends on if he's way stronger or not, but Goku has done this too and has fought with people who can do this, Goku's skill feats are insane, he fought 4 tiens all have comparable skill and power to him and he clapped them all at the same time.
No that's wrong, his durability has nothing to do with his regen source at all where did you even get that?
Click to expand...
yes, it's the one that fought mechagodzilla
and no his regen isn't really bad, mechagodzilla strikes him several times in the same spot on his neck, even after it was bleeding
but then it completely stopped in like the next scene as godzilla turned himself into a magnet, which is clearly showing that godzilla's regen had been improved in that scene
also goku has reactive power level, not reactive evolution
it's quite a big difference, since godzilla's allows him to gain a lot more than goku's does
also his durability being his regen was just a misunderstanding since the profile says he regenerates from a specific piece of himself
 
Orange said:
1- goku fought cell and proved to be a challenge for him. Cell is literally goku but better, aka goku bested someone that's literally him, but on steroids with skill alone, he was even capeable of using the after image [Cell was faster, and was a fighter with all of goku's abilities and more, literally] and still managed to work on him. So no, skill, and H2h is in favour of goku, massively. And with his ki sensing and etc, Godzilla has small chances of actually landing a hit, and speed equal helps goku not Godzilla, goku is able to use after image on people that are better and faster than him, so goku would be almost untouchable from Godzilla point of view, and with the kamehameha is a cherry on top
Click to expand...
if goku could use after image on people faster than him then....what proves they were faster than him in the first place? Or at the very least what proves they had reaction time that scaled to his speed
also cell being faster is unlikely for the same reason, I would like to see some proof for that
 
For the very reason they had more ki. And even if he wasn't faster than him, goku literally used his move against a better version of himself, how does even Godzilla counter this?
 
ZillerBucko said:
Kaiju King is the one that brought it up, so I'm unsure if goku actually has any kind of ap advantage here

yes, it's the one that fought mechagodzilla
and no his regen isn't really bad, mechagodzilla strikes him several times in the same spot on his neck, even after it was bleeding
but then it completely stopped in like the next scene as godzilla turned himself into a magnet, which is clearly showing that godzilla's regen had been improved in that scene
also goku has reactive power level, not reactive evolution
it's quite a big difference, since godzilla's allows him to gain a lot more than goku's does
also his durability being his regen was just a misunderstanding since the profile says he regenerates from a specific piece of himself
Click to expand...
Yeah I showed that he has the AP advantage above.
No his regen didn't get better, he just regenerated, that's why the wound stopped bleeding, his profile already covers this potency of regeneration (high-low).
Yeah I meant reactive power level, that makes you gain power as you fight, but reactive evolution also gives you more abilities. OH I forgot to mention, Goku won't just be getting stronger, he'll also be getting faster, I don't know if that applies to Godzilla though the example you showed only show him getting faster as far as I know.
ZillerBucko said:
if goku could use after image on people faster than him then....what proves they were faster than him in the first place? Or at the very least what proves they had reaction time that scaled to his speed
also cell being faster is unlikely for the same reason, I would like to see some proof for that
Click to expand...
Good point, Goku has afterimages, wtf will Godzilla do against that.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Yeah I showed that he has the AP advantage above.
No his regen didn't get better, he just regenerated, that's why the wound stopped bleeding, his profile already covers this potency of regeneration (high-low).
Yeah I meant reactive power level, that makes you gain power as you fight, but reactive evolution also gives you more abilities. OH I forgot to mention, Goku won't just be getting stronger, he'll also be getting faster, I don't know if that applies to Godzilla though the example you showed only show him getting faster as far as I know.

Good point, Goku has afterimages, wtf will Godzilla do against that.
Click to expand...
well you didn't actually prove it, you just stated it

his regen did get better, since the profile claims it's only high low over time, yet it was high low within SECONDS-
godzilla seemingly got faster as he was able to box with titanosaurus one on one and dodge his attacks completely, and he was already injured at this point anyways

also what, afterimages are speed
if he can use afterimages on someone then they're not faster than him, that's how it works
 
Orange said:
For the very reason they had more ki. And even if he wasn't faster than him, goku literally used his move against a better version of himself, how does even Godzilla counter this?
Click to expand...
1. cell is only partially goku, so that doesn't logically hold up
2. what proof is there that goku didn't surpass cell's speed, especially since buff super saiyan makes them slower yet they still have power, showing that speed doesn't scale directly to power in dragon ball
 
ZillerBucko said:
well you didn't actually prove it, you just stated it

his regen did get better, since the profile claims it's only high low over time, yet it was high low within SECONDS-
godzilla seemingly got faster as he was able to box with titanosaurus one on one and dodge his attacks completely, and he was already injured at this point anyways

also what, afterimages are speed
if he can use afterimages on someone then they're not faster than him, that's how it works
Click to expand...
Oh my bad then. The wiki scales all the ROSAT people to 760 tenatons in this blog, SSJ Goku was already stronger than all of them by a mile after his training, and he was only at 50% power here, so he scales to double that value.
Well then why doesn't the profile state that? You should probably fix that with a CRT.
Actually dragon ball characters can leave after images against people who are comparable or equal to them in speed. for example Goku was able to leave after images for tien despite them being exactly equal in power and speed.
ZillerBucko said:
1. cell is only partially goku, so that doesn't logically hold up
2. what proof is there that goku didn't surpass cell's speed, especially since buff super saiyan makes them slower yet they still have power, showing that speed doesn't scale directly to power in dragon ball
Click to expand...
Cell is Goku and a combination of a bunch of different people as well, so that makes him even more impressive.
Because cell was stronger and faster? The only time where a character's speed doesn't scale with strength is these rare instances like SSJ grade 3, but this doesn't apply in this case, Goku wasn't faster than cell but could still leave after images.
ZillerBucko said:
also reminder that we're not using cell saga goku
Click to expand...
No you can't do that, you have to use cell saga goku, Goku's android key isn't even large star level, and the difference in AP is 7x, which would make Godzilla straight up one shot and stomp.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
No you can't do that, you have to use cell saga goku, Goku's android key isn't even large star level, and the difference in AP is 7x, which would make Godzilla straight up one shot and stomp.
Click to expand...
oh, I was under the impression that he was large star level
well
hmmmmm
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
not sure what I'm gonna do now
 
ZillerBucko said:
oh, I was under the impression that he was large star level
well
hmmmmm
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
not sure what I'm gonna do now
Click to expand...
CONCEDE
latest
 
ZillerBucko said:
oh, I was under the impression that he was large star level
well
hmmmmm
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
not sure what I'm gonna do now
Click to expand...
even so, I'm still of the opinion that godzilla's passive regen and comparable durability would keep him alive long enough to increase his stats and abilities, absorbing ki, increase regen, etc
it just depends on how long godzilla lasts, and ultimately even if goku is stronger as a super saiyan then it still doesn't stop godzilla from using evolution and adaptation mid fight. Godzilla absorbs a ki attack? Godzilla takes the W. Godzilla increases his regen and stats? Godzilla wins with difficulty. Goku tries to beat godzilla to death? He probably won't be able to bypass regen like that unless the AP difference was much bigger
the only way I see goku winning is if godzilla lets him charge up a full power spirit bomb at the start of the match or something. Godzilla simply has the better win conditions here because evolve = win in most cases
which is drastically increased by goku's in character weakness.
 
ZillerBucko said:
even so, I'm still of the opinion that godzilla's passive regen and comparable durability would keep him alive long enough to increase his stats and abilities, absorbing ki, increase regen, etc
it just depends on how long godzilla lasts, and ultimately even if goku is stronger as a super saiyan then it still doesn't stop godzilla from using evolution and adaptation mid fight. Godzilla absorbs a ki attack? Godzilla takes the W. Godzilla increases his regen and stats? Godzilla wins with difficulty. Goku tries to beat godzilla to death? He probably won't be able to bypass regen like that unless the AP difference was much bigger
the only way I see goku winning is if godzilla lets him charge up a full power spirit bomb at the start of the match or something. Godzilla simply has the better win conditions here because evolve = win in most cases
which is drastically increased by goku's in character weakness.
Click to expand...
sigh. regen is minor, Goku's AP is actually much higher than his value, Goku also increases his stats, and the only really useful ability godzilla can gain is ki absorption but by the time that happens he'd already be severely weakened.
Godzilla won't last as long as Goku, no where near. Like I said evolution and adaptation is minor, like yeah he can increase stats, but so can Goku, and the abilities he gains are minor, not game changing. Godzilla absorbing a ki attack doesn't give him the win at all, where did you even get that? Android 19 absorbed a hell of a lot of Vegeta's ki and not only was vegeta fine but android 19 did even gain anything from that absorbed power, Yeah forgot to mention that Goku has experience fighting ki absorbing opponents. Stop saying Godzilla increasing his stats or regen makes any difference in the end, Goku also increases his stats and can bypass regen with ki attacks, by the time godzilla can abosrb them, he'd either be dead or barely living, regen is miniscule if it's high low and over time, Goku fought a dude who has low-HIGH regeneration and was weaker than him and was still able to blow his top side off. And yes Goku's physicals can bypass regen like that if he strikes vitals. Spirit bomb isn't necessary at all, Goku just needs to carpet bomb godzilla at the start of the match and or IT kamehameha him to oblivion. What in character weakness are we talking about?
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
sigh. regen is minor, Goku's AP is actually much higher than his value, Goku also increases his stats, and the only really useful ability godzilla can gain is ki absorption but by the time that happens he'd already be severely weakened.
Godzilla won't last as long as Goku, no where near. Like I said evolution and adaptation is minor, like yeah he can increase stats, but so can Goku, and the abilities he gains are minor, not game changing. Godzilla absorbing a ki attack doesn't give him the win at all, where did you even get that? Android 19 absorbed a hell of a lot of Vegeta's ki and not only was vegeta fine but android 19 did even gain anything from that absorbed power, Yeah forgot to mention that Goku has experience fighting ki absorbing opponents. Stop saying Godzilla increasing his stats or regen makes any difference in the end, Goku also increases his stats and can bypass regen with ki attacks, by the time godzilla can abosrb them, he'd either be dead or barely living, regen is miniscule if it's high low and over time, Goku fought a dude who has low-HIGH regeneration and was weaker than him and was still able to blow his top side off. And yes Goku's physicals can bypass regen like that if he strikes vitals. Spirit bomb isn't necessary at all, Goku just needs to carpet bomb godzilla at the start of the match and or IT kamehameha him to oblivion. What in character weakness are we talking about?
Click to expand...
regen healed from significant wounds in seconds
goku needs to turn godzilla into a mess in an unreasonable amount of time to bypass it
godzilla's evolution doesn't take that long, he can do that within seconds as well because again, titanosaurus example, titanosaurus starts out bodying godzilla and then when he's defeated he is basically fodder to godzilla. He tries to wind storm godzilla who quickly gains enough power to walk forward and then kicks his ass next scene, and also regenerated from mechagodzilla's attacks in just a few seconds while previously having regen over time
cell being far smaller than godzilla matters, while on one hand a kamehameha can be small and goku can just focus his energy and still be able to destroy cell's body, godzilla is a much larger target and the kamehameha would have to be bigger, and godzilla would likely do what he could to interrupt an attack instead of just taking it like cell did, he literally stood still and clearly didn't have his guard up either.
also his weakness is that he would let godzilla get to his full power before.
Also as for why godzilla didn't just absorb mechagodzilla's lasers in case you make that argument
1. Godzilla does adapt by increasing his regen in the final battle
2. if it were valid it would still be an outlier, given that he was weak to kong's electricity but later was able to absorb electricity to help him
 
ZillerBucko said:
regen healed from significant wounds in seconds
goku needs to turn godzilla into a mess in an unreasonable amount of time to bypass it
godzilla's evolution doesn't take that long, he can do that within seconds as well because again, titanosaurus example, titanosaurus starts out bodying godzilla and then when he's defeated he is basically fodder to godzilla. He tries to wind storm godzilla who quickly gains enough power to walk forward and then kicks his ass next scene, and also regenerated from mechagodzilla's attacks in just a few seconds while previously having regen over time
cell being far smaller than godzilla matters, while on one hand a kamehameha can be small and goku can just focus his energy and still be able to destroy cell's body, godzilla is a much larger target and the kamehameha would have to be bigger, and godzilla would likely do what he could to interrupt an attack instead of just taking it like cell did, he literally stood still and clearly didn't have his guard up either.
also his weakness is that he would let godzilla get to his full power before.
Also as for why godzilla didn't just absorb mechagodzilla's lasers in case you make that argument
1. Godzilla does adapt by increasing his regen in the final battle
2. if it were valid it would still be an outlier, given that he was weak to kong's electricity but later was able to absorb electricity to help him
Click to expand...
No bro if his regen was indeed what you say it is then it wouldn't be like the profile says. The profile says it's over time and only high low, before you said it healed it a minute vs the mecha one now you're saying he did it in seconds. That's just inconsistent. The regen you're describing is literally not impressive stopping a bleeding in a short amount of time in not impressive in terms of what someone like cell can do who goku can fight and blow half his body off. Now the kamehameha needing to be bigger is literally a non factor, vegeta could make his attack comparable to the diameter of the earth. Cell was also way stronger than this godzilla yet goku turned him into a pair of legs.
I'm not saying that godzilla can't get better regen, I'm saying in the long run, it's not gonna make a big difference. Either godzilla gets his body nuked and out skilled or he gets turned into a pair of legs or he just gets too tired and can't move.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
No bro if his regen was indeed what you say it is then it wouldn't be like the profile says. The profile says it's over time and only high low, before you said it healed it a minute vs the mecha one now you're saying he did it in seconds. That's just inconsistent.
Click to expand...
I rewatched the scene and some others, the actual answer is just in some seconds
FluffyCreatureZ said:
I'm not saying that godzilla can't get better regen, I'm saying in the long run, it's not gonna make a big difference. Either godzilla gets his body nuked and out skilled or he gets turned into a pair of legs or he just gets too tired and can't move.
Click to expand...
except unlike cell, godzilla doesn't really ever get cocky, and would literally never let goku charge up an attack that could do an amount of damage like that
also just a reminder that an ohko still would likely not happen, both godzilla and goku are the same tier
and cell was not fighting at full power, so that feat means very little here
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Now the kamehameha needing to be bigger is literally a non factor, vegeta could make his attack comparable to the diameter of the earth. Cell was also way stronger than this godzilla yet goku turned him into a pair of legs.
Click to expand...

The explosion size and the size of the attack itself are different, since shooting a gun at a wall is going to have much more impact than the sparks and dust that fly following it
of course, not a perfect analogy, but the logic of it matches up.
The main point is that it would make it a little bit less likely, which is more important when you add the other points already made
 
and yes not fighting at full power and being on guard do lower durability drastically in dragon ball
there are plenty of examples, mainly goku being hurt by a bullet and krillin's rock.
and yes, this applies to cell too because he is part goku so....
 
ZillerBucko said:
I rewatched the scene and some others, the actual answer is just in some seconds

except unlike cell, godzilla doesn't really ever get cocky, and would literally never let goku charge up an attack that could do an amount of damage like that
also just a reminder that an ohko still would likely not happen, both godzilla and goku are the same tier
and cell was not fighting at full power, so that feat means very little here


The explosion size and the size of the attack itself are different, since shooting a gun at a wall is going to have much more impact than the sparks and dust that fly following it
of course, not a perfect analogy, but the logic of it matches up.
The main point is that it would make it a little bit less likely, which is more important when you add the other points already made
Click to expand...
Okay I see, it's still not going to save godzilla.
Well what the hell is gozilla gonna do to stop it? If he tries to fly to him, Goku will just IT away or fly away, or just run the same way he did kefla, the same if he shoots atomic breaths, Goku's mid air maneuvers and acrobatics plus IT is the whole reason why he claps an opponent bigger than him in a fight, he also has experience fighting dudes bigger than him.
The level of power cell was using was still above Goku's so that's not a point.
What are you trying to say that bigher blast= weaker blast? Do you know how wrong that is? Well okay whatever then, take this example of a vegeta significantly weaker than the Goku here fighting THE SAME perfect cell, he charged up his final flash. Cell was like, hit me bro. And when he shot it, cell was FORCED to dodge, had a chunk of his arm and body NUKED, and this blast was so massive it was comparable to the size of the earth. Now this is a stronger Goku, what is stopping him from doing the exact same thing? It's not like that's his only win condition, that's just one of many.
Yeah the off guard thing does lower durability, but doesn't apply to cell here, since he was fully expecting the attack to come from above but it came from below which means he was only caught off guard in the direction of the attack but wasn't suppressed. This is also supported by how a far weaker vegeta was able to vaporize a cell that was 180 degrees away from being called off guard.
 
Goku IT a Kamehameha above the at the size of a mountain. How does Godzilla defend against it?
 
Actually what does goku and Godzilla scale to? The answer may be in favour of Godzilla, maybe
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Vegeta who was weaker than Goku at the time could do this.
v8Fe6w.gif


AP? Godzilla is 1278 tenatons. Goku is >>>1520 tenatons, far higher with charged attacks.
Click to expand...
Doesn't goku technically ap stomp? I mean, he was able to defend against trunks attacks with one finger, the same trunks that fodderized frieza and his daddy at the same time. Unless I'm mistaken
 
What's stopping Goku from just attacking a particular part of Godzilla's body continuously and detaching it and after images still works in speed equalised
 
Rez said:
What's stopping Goku from just attacking a particular part of Godzilla's body continuously and detaching it and after images still works in speed equalised
Click to expand...
Can Godzilla regenerate his torso or his upper body?
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Okay I see, it's still not going to save godzilla.
Well what the hell is gozilla gonna do to stop it? If he tries to fly to him, Goku will just IT away or fly away, or just run the same way he did kefla, the same if he shoots atomic breaths, Goku's mid air maneuvers and acrobatics plus IT is the whole reason why he claps an opponent bigger than him in a fight, he also has experience fighting dudes bigger than him.
The level of power cell was using was still above Goku's so that's not a point.
What are you trying to say that bigher blast= weaker blast? Do you know how wrong that is? Well okay whatever then, take this example of a vegeta significantly weaker than the Goku here fighting THE SAME perfect cell, he charged up his final flash. Cell was like, hit me bro. And when he shot it, cell was FORCED to dodge, had a chunk of his arm and body NUKED, and this blast was so massive it was comparable to the size of the earth. Now this is a stronger Goku, what is stopping him from doing the exact same thing? It's not like that's his only win condition, that's just one of many.
Yeah the off guard thing does lower durability, but doesn't apply to cell here, since he was fully expecting the attack to come from above but it came from below which means he was only caught off guard in the direction of the attack but wasn't suppressed. This is also supported by how a far weaker vegeta was able to vaporize a cell that was 180 degrees away from being called off guard.
Click to expand...
Well, the biggest counter argument is simply that if cell actually had his guard up, he would have dodged instead of staring at goku when he teleported. Cell was still deciding if goku was bluffing or not at the time, and the fact that he didn’t dodge supports that he didn’t expect it.
Not to mention that because of his regen, he pretty much doesn’t even need to defend himself in that situation anyways, so there’s plenty of explanations for that
 
ZillerBucko said:
Well, the biggest counter argument is simply that if cell actually had his guard up, he would have dodged instead of staring at goku when he teleported. Cell was still deciding if goku was bluffing or not at the time, and the fact that he didn’t dodge supports that he didn’t expect it.
Not to mention that because of his regen, he pretty much doesn’t even need to defend himself in that situation anyways, so there’s plenty of explanations for that
Click to expand...
Actually, if goku managed to make cell be "off gaurd" by IT, he would literally just do the same to Godzilla
considering cell has better senses, martial art skills than him, taking Godzilla off guard is easy
 
Rez said:
What's stopping Goku from just attacking a particular part of Godzilla's body continuously and detaching it and after images still works in speed equalised
Click to expand...
So then afterimage is just hax?
Also the regen, mechagodzilla did the exact same strategy you said and Godzilla regenerated from it quickly
 
ZillerBucko said:
So then afterimage is just hax?
Also the regen, mechagodzilla did the exact same strategy you said and Godzilla regenerated from it quickly
Click to expand...
He doesn't nor can he regenerate a huge part of his body in small durations of time like head, torso, half of your body
and since Godzilla can't react to after images, he would be getting hit alot
 
Rez said:
He can evolve against physical attacks?
Click to expand...
No that don't make sense.
ZillerBucko said:
Well, the biggest counter argument is simply that if cell actually had his guard up, he would have dodged instead of staring at goku when he teleported. Cell was still deciding if goku was bluffing or not at the time, and the fact that he didn’t dodge supports that he didn’t expect it.
Not to mention that because of his regen, he pretty much doesn’t even need to defend himself in that situation anyways, so there’s plenty of explanations for that
Click to expand...
Cell couldn't do anything because Goku shot the attack right as he teleported, and the blast was faster than him, don't bring up the cinematic timing of that scene.
 
Orange said:
Actually, if goku managed to make cell be "off gaurd" by IT, he would literally just do the same to Godzilla
considering cell has better senses, martial art skills than him, taking Godzilla off guard is easy
Click to expand...
Now wait a minute, the “off guard durability lowers” thing has been shown in dragon ball repeatedly, but there’s nothing that shows that it applies to Godzilla. It’s just something that’s in dragonball unless there’s proof otherwise
that’s how every other verse works, but in dragon ball, the god tier characters can be hurt by lasers and bullets if they’re not expecting it
all we know right now is that both Godzilla and goku have similar stats so it shouldn’t result in Goku being able to easily blow him up
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
No that don't make sense.

Cell couldn't do anything because Goku shot the attack right as he teleported, and the blast was faster than him, don't bring up the cinematic timing of that scene.
Click to expand...
and he didn’t expect goku to do that, so my point still stands
the timing of the scene aside, he still saw goku, and didn’t do anything to protect himself from the attack
 
ZillerBucko said:
and he didn’t expect goku to do that, so my point still stands
the timing of the scene aside, he still saw goku, and didn’t do anything to protect himself from the attack
Click to expand...
No it doesn't I countered this point already
Yeah the off guard thing does lower durability, but doesn't apply to cell here, since he was fully expecting the attack to come from above but it came from below which means he was only caught off guard in the direction of the attack but wasn't suppressed as he was still getting ready to contest the attack. This is also supported by how a far weaker vegeta was able to vaporize a cell that was 180 degrees away from being called off guard.
Click to expand...
 
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