Shouldn't L and Light Be Extraordinary Geniuses?

[YungManzi]

I've always thought this, but just never bothered to actually discuss it here.

Based on the definitions given on the Intelligence page, Light and L far surpass genius, even using the information given on their pages.

"Genius: Individuals with an exceptional capacity for knowledge and intelligence, generally in one area of varying depth, often possessed by fictional scientists and strategists. This level of intelligence is the level of actual geniuses and famous intellectuals in the real world and, in lieu of better feats,"

Now let's have a look at their pages.

Light-"engineering a complex scheme in which he would give up the Death Note and his memories, only to reclaim them once suspicion was diverted."

This was a plan which spanned months and couldn't have been adjusted by light himself because he didn't even remember it, yet it all worked out with him retaining his memories without anyone suspecting anything.

And I ask myself if this is something someone could come up with irl in such a short amount of time.

L-"He is the true identity of the three most famous and influential detectives in the world [Erald Coyle, Deneuve, and himself], and can easily get top marks in all subjects in the prestigious university of Todai.)"

Being the true identity of the three most famous and influential detectives in the world is already quite unbelievable but there's also "can easily get top marks in all subjects in the prestigious university of Todai." which directly conflicts with the intelligence page's classification of genius which says "generally in one area of varying depth"

Near probably also scales to them, but who like Near?

 

[Eficiente]

No, normal humans could do the same. Please read what it takes to be an Extraordinary Genius, they are not in that level.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Like Junko Enoshima is an Extraordinary Genius.

 

[YungManzi]

No, normal humans could do the same. Please read what it takes to be an Extraordinary Genius, they are not in that level.

I had to read it before making this thread to make sure I wasn't missing something.

"Extraordinary Genius: Individuals whose knowledge spreads over many fields of science and who vastly surpass the intellects of the smartest humans on Earth. At this level, many are capable of creating futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, and potentially even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations, or outperforming supercomputers."

It just doesn't at all seem far out from what Light and L have displayed. Easily getting top marks in all subjects of a prestigious university doesn't count as "knowledge spreads over many fields of science"?

"executing complex strategies even under high pressure"-Is Light through and through.

I need an example of someone irl successfully coming up with a plan which manipulates the actions of dozens of people in order to clear their name, coming up with this plan within a few days to a week, and not being able to at all change or alter it for the entire period it lasted (Which was months).

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

An example of an Extraordinary Genius would be Katerina Donla. She created an anti-gravity device for use in a school project about the growth of protein crystals in zero gravity, instinctively understands both robotics and mechanical engineering, and is currently in the process of creating organic, robotic bodies that, once it possesses a conscious mind, are considered living beings by both the scientific and supernatural communities.

I don't think L and Light are quite up there yet.

 

[Bonus_Person]

Honestly Light is pretty dumb, he changed the Time of the Deaths only so L can deduce he was acess to police information and then they stopped publishing useful things there, he killed the FBI agents even through they were never a trouble, and anyone would have taken the Shinigami Eyes by the moment L said he suspects him.

Also in the last episode what was he going to do after killing matsuda and the others? Go to the task force and say "hey Kira killed everyone except me, let's continue the imvestigation anyways"?.

 

[YungManzi]

An example of an Extraordinary Genius would be Katerina Donla. She created an anti-gravity device for use in a school project about the growth of protein crystals in zero gravity, instinctively understands both robotics and mechanical engineering, and is currently in the process of creating organic, robotic bodies that, once it possesses a conscious mind, are considered living beings by both the scientific and supernatural communities.
I don't think L and Light are quite up there yet.

That's an example of scientific EG, which Light and L are not. they fall much more into the analytical category. More known for ingenious plans than outlandish creations.

Even if they don't fit into Exraordinary genius (Even though they certainly do, as per definition given on the page), they are far above genius, which is only on the level of real-world geniuses.

Also, @Bonus

Light is not stupid, most of the mistakes he made has to do with getting caught in a trap set by L, someone who's just as intelligent, or his god complex taking over...which led to him making some weird decisions.

 

[YungManzi]

Also, keep in mind, there are different tiers in Extraordinary genius. I'm not saying they're as intelligent as Batman or any other character (So please don't bring up other characters)

I'm saying that based on the definition, they fit into this category.

 

[ElixirBlue]

In terms of planning things out, Junko Enoshima is far superior to Light, as she outsmart other amazing Geniuses in her verse to destroy the world.

She would've never lost, much to her own disappointment, if Makoto didn't have broken Luck Hax and on par Empathetic Manipulation.

 

[YungManzi]

@Elixir Blue

Me:>" Please don't bring up other characters in comparison. I'm merely talking about the definition given on the intelligence page. Based on that definition, they both fit the bill."

You:> "Well they're not as smart as Junko Enoshima!"


.....bump btw.

 

[Antvasima]

They are not far more intelligent than Stephen Hawkings, Albert Einstein, Leonardo DaVinci, and similar, so they do not qualify. Sorry.

 

[YungManzi]

They are not far more intelligent than Stephen Hawkings, Albert Einstein, Leonardo DaVinci, and similar, so they do not qualify. Sorry.

I simply don't agree.

Sure, they don't measure up when it comes to science (which isn't what I'm arguing), but I would say they far outclass all of our real world geniuses with their analytical abilities.

For the reasons I've already given.

Edit:

I've never heard of real world people pulling off what L and Light could pull off.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Not really, no. Nothing done in death note is that incredible.

Impressive, but not superhuman.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, it takes considerably superhuman intelligence to qualify. They simply haven't gone that far. I think that you underestimate the capabilities of the most extremely intelligent real world humans.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Necro.

I feel like this may not be answered enough, since intelligence's definition and it's suggested ratings are very broad.

In order to be extraordinary genius, they would have to be superior to IRL geniuses that made world and fundementally science changing discoveries. Like here

L if his achievements were discovered post death, could revolutionize other genius detectives, but it's vague to say he's superhuman genius.

 

[MrTayman616]

An example of an Extraordinary Genius would be Katerina Donla. She created an anti-gravity device for use in a school project about the growth of protein crystals in zero gravity, instinctively understands both robotics and mechanical engineering, and is currently in the process of creating organic, robotic bodies that, once it possesses a conscious mind, are considered living beings by both the scientific and supernatural communities.

I don't think L and Light are quite up there yet.

Isn't her case more of a Technological? Ayanokoji might be a better example

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

I'm not necessarily rooting for the proposal's acceptance, but I feel like the disagreements so far don't really understand the scope Light and L's intelligence.

Being a polymath only qualifies for the Genius rank, and having "exceptional or superhuman intelligence" without signs of the Extraordinary Genius' qualifications only qualifies for the Genius rank, but the idea that Light and L are polymaths and exceptional is only the surface. The problem is that they're no time machine creating super scientists that make things as clear as day, but that doesn't mean they don't fall under characters who are capable of executing complex strategies even under high pressure and accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations, both of which being characteristics of Extraordinary Genius ranked characters, albeit it's vague how complex the strategies need to be, how high the pressure needs to be, and how far into the future those predictions need to be.

Here are a few tidbits of how smart the characters are. I wrote them from memory, because gathering all the sources to cite them would be annoying.

• Light performed all his feats unrelated to being Kira casually. Light got the best grades nationally (including qualifying for university), helped the police solve criminal cases they struggled with, was a tennis champion, and knows enough about romance to easily get dates with women, yet he was bored. This boredom is what got him starting to think about what if some people who didn't contribute as much as him just disappeared and what if dangerous criminals were killed more. By the time he was Kira and L was trying to discover him, Light actively wanted to kill L, not because that was a safer choice, but because Light wanted to prove to himself he could overcome such a worthy opponent as the greatest detective. It was like a death game to him, freeing him from the loneliness of fodderizing normal life.
• Throughout the entirety of his appearance in Death Note, L was sleep deprived and supposedly never had a proper meal instead of miscellaneous sugary nibbles. This includes when L was doing his detective work.
• As L's profile includes, "L's intelligence was equivalent to that of five ordinary investigative bureaus and seven intelligence agencies, with his intellect further increasing by several notches before facing Kira." This is extraordinary, and his intelligence is kind of treated like a stat that increases to super high lengths.
• The famous potato chip scene is a great example of Light's skill if you really think about it. There were tens of hidden cameras all around Light's room, and Light had to pretend he didn't know about it while being watched by the highly observant L. In one hand, Light was solving math equations to look like he was studying for his university entrance exam, while simultaneously in his other hand, he was using a piece of his Death Note hidden inside a chip bag to kill criminals being broadcasted on a mini TV that was also hidden in the bag. Light had planned the entire scenario in case he had to use his Death Note without being seen, and L didn't notice anything amiss. L even thought that if Kira was among the people he surveilled, then his psyche has reached a god-like level, judging and killing people with not even the slightest change in facial expression.
• By the time Near was introduced, Light successfully replaced L as the greatest detective in the world while still being Kira and working with his task force to try stopping Kira. Light kept his role for years despite not inheriting L's fortune.

My conclusion is that I wouldn't mind a solid "at least" in front of the "Genius" ranks of Light, L and Near.

 

[Ezaru]

Seems like the gap between tiers for intelegence may be too big

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Yung is going to have a weird look after I necroed this thread lol . At least we're giving them answers.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm not necessarily rooting for the proposal's acceptance, but I feel like the disagreements so far don't really understand the scope Light and L's intelligence.

Being a polymath only qualifies for the Genius rank, and having "exceptional or superhuman intelligence" without signs of the Extraordinary Genius' qualifications only qualifies for the Genius rank, but the idea that Light and L are polymaths and exceptional is only the surface. The problem is that they're no time machine creating super scientists that make things as clear as day, but that doesn't mean they don't fall under characters who are capable of executing complex strategies even under high pressure and accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations, both of which being characteristics of Extraordinary Genius ranked characters, albeit it's vague how complex the strategies need to be, how high the pressure needs to be, and how far into the future those predictions need to be.

Here are a few tidbits of how smart the characters are. I wrote them from memory, because gathering all the sources to cite them would be annoying.

• Light performed all his feats unrelated to being Kira casually. Light got the best grades nationally (including qualifying for university), helped the police solve criminal cases they struggled with, was a tennis champion, and knows enough about romance to easily get dates with women, yet he was bored. This boredom is what got him starting to think about what if some people who didn't contribute as much as him just disappeared and what if dangerous criminals were killed more. By the time he was Kira and L was trying to discover him, Light actively wanted to kill L, not because that was a safer choice, but because Light wanted to prove to himself he could overcome such a worthy opponent as the greatest detective. It was like a death game to him, freeing him from the loneliness of fodderizing normal life.
• Throughout the entirety of his appearance in Death Note, L was sleep deprived and supposedly never had a proper meal instead of miscellaneous sugary nibbles. This includes when L was doing his detective work.
• As L's profile includes, "L's intelligence was equivalent to that of five ordinary investigative bureaus and seven intelligence agencies, with his intellect further increasing by several notches before facing Kira." This is extraordinary, and his intelligence is kind of treated like a stat that increases to super high lengths.
• The famous potato chip scene is a great example of Light's skill if you really think about it. There were tens of hidden cameras all around Light's room, and Light had to pretend he didn't know about it while being watched by the highly observant L. In one hand, Light was solving math equations to look like he was studying for his university entrance exam, while simultaneously in his other hand, he was using a piece of his Death Note hidden inside a chip bag to kill criminals being broadcasted on a mini TV that was also hidden in the bag. Light had planned the entire scenario in case he had to use his Death Note without being seen, and L didn't notice anything amiss. L even thought that if Kira was among the people he surveilled, then his psyche has reached a god-like level, judging and killing people with not even the slightest change in facial expression.
• By the time Near was introduced, Light successfully replaced L as the greatest detective in the world while still being Kira and working with his task force to try stopping Kira. Light kept his role for years despite not inheriting L's fortune.

My conclusion is that I wouldn't mind a solid "at least" in front of the "Genius" ranks of Light, L and Near.

Well, I suppose that " At least Genius, likely Extraordinary Genius" seems warranted for them then.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Well, I suppose that " At least Genius, likely Extraordinary Genius" seems warranted for them then.

I'm not prepared to make such a revision, since I didn't gather all the evidence I need, but thanks for considering my idea. Also, I believe "possibly" instead of "likely" would be more accurate, since despite what I described, genius intelligence in Death Note is generally written in a more realistic fashion than that of many other characters we rank as Extraordinary Genius.

Though, I've gathered the evidence for an example I didn't previously mention of the extreme end of intelligence in Death Note. I'll post it in a separate reply.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

The character Stephen Gevanni was able to make a fake version of Teru Mikami's Death Note in one night, including replicating his handwriting perfectly and writing all the countless names that were written. Evidence:

Source: Death Note, Volume 12, Chapter 103, Declaration.

This went undetected despite Teru Mikami having made his own fake version of his Death Note using a microscope, and according to Light before he became aware of the entire real Death Note being forged, "it's impossible to replace the pages without leaving any traces of tampering, and Mikami's very observant, so it was easy for him to recognize when you had done it." Evidence:

Source: Death Note, Volume 12, Chapter 102, Patience.

All the aforementioned was just one element in the precautions Light and Near took against each other, but of course, this alone doesn't mean they are as skilled as Gevanni. However, while they aren't revealed to have Gevanni's forgery skill, they are revealed to have his level of proficiency in some of the skills they do possess. Death Note 13: How to Read, the encyclopedia book for the series, has official character profiles with radar charts depicting their stats. Gevanni has 10/10 imitation skill. Light has 10/10 creativity, motivation, social life and acting skills. L and Near have 10/10 creativity and motivation. Light and Near have 9/10 general knowledge, which is mistranslated as "intelligence" in the English version, and which is the highest knowledge level revealed to be possessed by humans in the series, with the two being the only ones who have it. Evidence:

The only character in the series who has their knowledge confirmed to be rated 10/10 is Nu, a Shinigami who is inapplicable for a curiosity measurement. Evidence:

 

[MrTayman616]

The character Stephen Gevanni was able to make a fake version of Teru Mikami's Death Note in one night, including replicating his handwriting perfectly and writing all the countless names that were written. Evidence:

Source: Death Note, Volume 12, Chapter 103, Declaration.

This went undetected despite Teru Mikami having made his own fake version of his Death Note using a microscope, and according to Light before he became aware of the entire real Death Note being forged, "it's impossible to replace the pages without leaving any traces of tampering, and Mikami's very observant, so it was easy for him to recognize when you had done it." Evidence:

Source: Death Note, Volume 12, Chapter 102, Patience.

All the aforementioned was just one element in the precautions Light and Near took against each other, but of course, this alone doesn't mean they are as skilled as Gevanni. However, while they aren't revealed to have Gevanni's forgery skill, they are revealed to have his level of proficiency in some of the skills they do possess. Death Note 13: How to Read, the encyclopedia book for the series, has official character profiles with radar charts depicting their stats. Gevanni has 10/10 imitation skill. Light has 10/10 creativity, motivation, social life and acting skills. L and Near have 10/10 creativity and motivation. Light and Near have 9/10 general knowledge, which is mistranslated as "intelligence" in the English version, and which is the highest knowledge level revealed to be possessed by humans in the series, with the two being the only ones who have it. Evidence:

The only character in the series who has their knowledge confirmed to be rated 10/10 is Nu, a Shinigami who is inapplicable for a curiosity measurement. Evidence:

Yeah. the mistranslation (intellgence --> knowledge) should be fixed from the intelligence sections of the characters.

Also if you want more feat, statement or something like that. You can check Death note: Another note. there are already some statements from it that are added to L's section, so i think it should be fine.

It could add better feats and statements to L, or simply upscaling from literally any feat in there since he's much superior to B.B + has been stated to be the most intelligent character in the series. Would also make "possibly" section more believable for other characters as well.