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what are the arguments?
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Shouldn't DOOM Hell be like Low 1-C?
- Thread starter Bernkastelll
- Start date
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- doom hell (doom)
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Low 1-C doom??? Wasn't this rejected?
Leaving some input here...
"Yep, it address that those terms, with reality fiction interaction proof, are used for tier 1, without it they are meaningless.
Either that one has more evidence or it deserves a downgrade.
The reasons got brought up on the previous doom cosmology upgrade thread"
Well... saying how you only need R/F to prove higher dimensionality to get higher tiering isn't necessarily true.
"One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc."
This is the large requirement, not the reality fiction one, both of which can certainly grant tier 1.
- However, I think (not entirely sure) it should be pretty obvious that the difference between just this smaller structure and larger structure is that of an uncountable infinite one
(Like how spatial dimensions of a universe is infinitesimal to the temporal one with the example provided by the FAQ)
I also heard some talk about hell also being transcendent and unbound to 4D.
To determine the nature of transcendence :
"They can qualify, however, if said "higher plane" is defined as having a relationship of qualitative superiority over lower realms in one way or another, such as by perceiving them as literal fiction/unreality (or being comparatively more "real" in nature), encompassing them in an infinitesimal portion of itself, residing in a higher state of being altogether, and etc."
I guess an argument I do see is how is hell is transcendent to 4D structures and it's superior in the nature, as it embeds them within, I guess it could be Low 1-C
You may need to summon Ultima, Elizhaa or Yuri and not so knowledgeable on doom, so you may need some supporters but do what y'all will with this.
Leaving some input here...
"Yep, it address that those terms, with reality fiction interaction proof, are used for tier 1, without it they are meaningless.
Either that one has more evidence or it deserves a downgrade.
The reasons got brought up on the previous doom cosmology upgrade thread"
Well... saying how you only need R/F to prove higher dimensionality to get higher tiering isn't necessarily true.
"One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc."
This is the large requirement, not the reality fiction one, both of which can certainly grant tier 1.
- However, I think (not entirely sure) it should be pretty obvious that the difference between just this smaller structure and larger structure is that of an uncountable infinite one
(Like how spatial dimensions of a universe is infinitesimal to the temporal one with the example provided by the FAQ)
I also heard some talk about hell also being transcendent and unbound to 4D.
To determine the nature of transcendence :
"They can qualify, however, if said "higher plane" is defined as having a relationship of qualitative superiority over lower realms in one way or another, such as by perceiving them as literal fiction/unreality (or being comparatively more "real" in nature), encompassing them in an infinitesimal portion of itself, residing in a higher state of being altogether, and etc."
I guess an argument I do see is how is hell is transcendent to 4D structures and it's superior in the nature, as it embeds them within, I guess it could be Low 1-C
You may need to summon Ultima, Elizhaa or Yuri and not so knowledgeable on doom, so you may need some supporters but do what y'all will with this.
- 15,530
- 10,315
- Thread starter
- #43
does someone here know how to deal with ''throwing people alway'' feat?
- 4,315
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I've messaged Elizhaa to check this thread. Hopefully they see it
- 4,451
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Small correction: Hell is at least 2-B, the multiverse itself is 2-A. What Hell is stated to transcend is said 2-A structure (transcends space-time which includes said multiverse) and is also stated to be threat towards (I think Hell should be 2-A for that, but the Hell do I know?).
Gewsbumpz_dude
Username Only- 3,612
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I personally like to see Hell and DOOM become Low 1-C and agree with it, but I doubt it would actually happen here given tiering system shenanigans and whatnot.
Backing up this 2-A Hell thing with this image of Hell causing the multiverse itself to implode. We already use this for Hell scaling to the cosmology. Surprised that it isn't 2-A yet.
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Time to make this thread into a "make Hell 2-A" thread? Or should that just be saved for a later CRT? I'll leave it up to the people here.
- 15,530
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- Thread starter
- #48
idk im just bored
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2-A for Hell is fine imo considering its deemed a threat to the entire cosmology, scales to said cosmology, can presumably absorb it all if it weren't for Urdak and other stuff like that, and basically also scales to Davoth since its a fraction of his power. Low 1-C is also fine in my book its just I think it needs more evidence than just "transcends space and time" because as is that doesn't fit the wiki's kinda weird standards for it.
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I disagree with hell being low 1-C for the reasons already mentioned. It was also Low 1-C when initially created but was downgraded as many knowledgeable staff on both doom and the tiring system mentioned it did not meet the criteria.
I agree it should be 2-A though.
I agree it should be 2-A though.
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From the Codex Story of the Maykrs - Urdak:
"Urdak itself exists in an anchor state, utilizing highly advanced dimensional shift technology to allow a static position at a sub-quantum level. This essentially inverts their position in relation to Hell; both planes of existence are fixed outside the bounds of the known universe, a 'lower' and 'higher' reality."
From the previous FaQ regarding Low 1-C:
"'However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is outright superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor''
So it appears that Hell is actually an higher plane of existence, and this with the fact that it trascend space and time might actually make Low 1-C Hell plausible.
This being said, I understand why it might look strange, so I wont go against a rejection.
"Urdak itself exists in an anchor state, utilizing highly advanced dimensional shift technology to allow a static position at a sub-quantum level. This essentially inverts their position in relation to Hell; both planes of existence are fixed outside the bounds of the known universe, a 'lower' and 'higher' reality."
From the previous FaQ regarding Low 1-C:
"'However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is outright superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor''
So it appears that Hell is actually an higher plane of existence, and this with the fact that it trascend space and time might actually make Low 1-C Hell plausible.
This being said, I understand why it might look strange, so I wont go against a rejection.
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You are forgetting one part, there literally says the lower dimension must be infinitesimal to the higher one in order to, which is similar to a R/F interaction, but even then hell doesn't have such statements as far as this thread went, simple saying transcendence and unbound does not mean being infinitely bigger even if you encompass something
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I mean the text doesn't sound like a spacetime superiority to me, just hell being hard to access, they even say it is outside the universe rather than beyond it.
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The Space-time superiority statement is already in the OP, here I wanted to specify that Hell is described as a higher plane of existence, which would support a possible Low 1-C rating.
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I want to specify that Low 1-C Hell is much more plausible than many thinks. Using tha FaQ as basis again, a simple statement of something transcending space and time isn't enough to warrant a Low 1-C rating, unless it's specified that said thing is an higher plane of existence.
Here, we have in the OP a statement that says that Hell is unbound by space and time and at the same time we also have a statement of it being an higher plane of existence. So, it checks both requirements.
But again, I understand that it might be "too early" for a Tier 1 Doom, so I wont oppose to a rejection.
Here, we have in the OP a statement that says that Hell is unbound by space and time and at the same time we also have a statement of it being an higher plane of existence. So, it checks both requirements.
But again, I understand that it might be "too early" for a Tier 1 Doom, so I wont oppose to a rejection.
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I don't really care about Hell being low 1-C (I can argue it but I won't. I'd rather talk in DMs with people about it to see if it would fly first) but I mean we already accepted it as an active threat to the cosmology, which is now 2-A. Like, it should be 2-A.
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I didn't forget that, what I highlighted from the FAQ also does mention how the lower dimension should be infinitesimal. But yes I do agree. I don't know if anything about hell would make it much larger than the 4D structure if it only transcends it.
Btw I do see talk about Doom being 2-A so should another thread be made, or the OP gets revised with information for it to be 2-A? Or maybe this gets turned into a 2-A possibly Low 1-C thread?
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The reason things were scaled to at least 2-B is that Hell was only 2-B and we scaled them to Hell as a bare minimum for being an extension of Davoth's power and possibly 2-A because of scaling to the entire cosmology. But Hell logically should be 2-A with all current info.
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The FAQ says that it needs that higher plane still needs a infinite difference in size and superiority, which is the gap between 2-A and low 1-C, you won't achieve it without such gap, so simple being called a higher plane or anything is still not enough.
- 1,524
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Here is the complete FAQ about the "transcending space and time" case:
"As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. It is perfectly possible for such a statement to mean that a character is simply "untied" from the universe's spacetime, and is thus unaffected by alterations in the timeline and similar meddlings. Likewise, it's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space."
However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is outright superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor.
It should also be noted that simply existing in some alternate state of existence that lacks time and/or space is not really grounds for any tier in particular, as lacking such things does not translate to being superior to them, and would most often overlap with abilities like Acausality or Nonexistent Physiology. A good example of a case like this is Dormammu (Marvel Cinematic Universe), who is stated to exist in a realm "far beyond time," yet never actually displays any superiority over it, and is in fact vulnerable to time-based abilities due to his timeless nature."
Not once they talk about the infinite difference in superiority, and this is because said difference is already in the "transcending space and time" statement. But the statement alone means nothing if it's not referring to an higher plane of existence.
The difference that you are referring to is when the word "dimension" is used. In that case, you need to prove that said higher dimension is infinitely superior than a lower one, like with geometrical differences or reality-fiction differences.
However, in the "transcending space and time" cases it's different, and the requirements are the one that I already written in the previous post. I suggest you to check the Archie Sonic Low 1-C revision for a better understanding of how this works, because that passed for similiar reasons.
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Low 1-C seems too vague, to me. Besides the transcendence statements, Hell doesn't seem to have better evidence that shows it is a higher world compared to the DOOM multiverse. There are elaborations here on the thread that Low 1-C was rejected.
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Honestly the FAQ is being abused a lot recently to push for low 1-C, when both it and the tiering page clearly state there has to be a qualitative superiority that amounts to a uncountable infinite difference for tier 1.
FFS that the gap between 2-A and low 1-C, how are you supposed to have a realm with that gap without evidence of it having that gap beyond transcendence statements?
Might need to open a thread about it later
FFS that the gap between 2-A and low 1-C, how are you supposed to have a realm with that gap without evidence of it having that gap beyond transcendence statements?
Might need to open a thread about it later
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There's an actual argument for it, but this is not it, and I will not get into it. Would people be ok with making Hell 2-A since we already accepted it scaling to the cosmology of the verse and the cosmology is now 2-A?
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Like I stated before, but just reiterating, I agree with 2-A hell. Makes sense considering it scales to the cosmology and to Davoth
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I'm just gonna take over this thread for my own purposes. So far we have agreement for 2-A Hell change from 1 staff (Kieran) and a few knowledgeable members. I would prefer more input.
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With all that has been shown here, hell should absolutely be 2-A at least
