Should Souls be default and also Medaka Box and Spirituality

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Edit: This thread has moved more into the realm of whether or not characters should be assumed to possess souls by default, as opposed to specifically medaka box revisions. Wokista (talk) 03:19, December 6, 2018 (UTC)


Alright, so this is something that has been discussed in various threads but has never been officially addressed. I'm tossing this together so that a Wiki policy can be discussed on how we move forward, so I won't have scans. However, I will address specific notable moments within the series

Medaka Box has a strange situation with spirituality in that... It doesn't. Medaka Box has all but outright denied any spiritual aspect to its verse. This is not merely them not addressing the spiritual concepts within the verse, Medaka Box is not an agnostic series. I'll go down the line on various points of this

There is no after life. The only thing close to it is Ajimu's class room in the other world, but other than that there is nothing waiting for the characters when they pass. The world is at best a dream world, but is more likely just another physical plane since the training that happens there caries over to the real world.

Resurrection is impossible. I know that may sound ridicules at face value considering Kumagawa exists, but the verse draws a clear distinction. It actually goes out of its way to distinguish itself from something like Dragon Ball, and actually calls it out by name. The only way to bring someone back from the dead in Medaka Box is to make it so they never died at all. Essentially, there is no basis to bring them back once they truly pass on

Mentality and consciousness is entirely biological and tied to the brain. This is partially its own issue, but it is related. There is no metaphysical aspect to Abnormalities or Minus. The telepaths and telekinetics in Medaka Box function not based on a conventionally super natural force, but instead can read and manipulate electrical signals. (It also explicitly does not play by the "mind hax more people = more mind hax potency against an individual when focused). When your mind gets overwritten, you are a different person. When your physical body and mind get destroyed, you don't exist.


Point is, How do we address a verse that explicitly has no souls or spiritual element? How does verse equalization play into soul manip working or not working? Obviously something like Pucci's soul manip may still work, but what about something like Undertale?

I feel like I should also address that Medaka Box does have magic, but it is, again, largely exclusively a product of people being so insane that their fantasies bleed over into reality, and the sane cannot perceive it for the most part. But that is about at metaphysical as it gets other than plot manip. Everything else is just fantasy materialism

 

[PaChi2]

Boogie boogie boogie.

 

[Wokistan]

I mean I'd honestly be OK with assuming souls aren't a thing, what with how it seems to reject spirituality in these other quite major ways.

 

[Agnaa]

From verse equalization, things happen in a neutral universe, so it'd be assumed that non-biological mind manip can work, and soul manip can work.

If there was a character from a verse that explicitly has no hell, and a character from another verse that BFRs people to hell, they'd still be able to BFR the former character to hell due to verse equalization.

 

[Wokistan]

Verse equalization equalizes when there's something equivalent though, and doesn't give stuff a verse outright denies.

Hell BFR would just BFR a character to the user's hell anyways.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I mean, I guess you are saying that this comes down to if souls are an aspect of the verse or if they are an aspect of the character. Because if it is the latter, then it doesn't equalise, but if it is the former, it potentially does. Also, I was not so much claiming that mind manip doesn't work on Medaka Box characters or anything like that

That's... kinda a false equivolence but i get your point

 

[PaChi2]

Souls are a thing.

Literally Iihiko's soul is being kept in the Shiranui village.

Iihiko possessed Hansode.

Iihiko has a soul.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I don't believe they ever call him a soul. They always reference him as a more transfer of conciousness or the passing on of a legend (more meta narative hero stuff kek).

 

[Wokistan]

You can possess without souls, but if his soul is an established thing, then that would be that. Got like a panel or something?

 

[Agnaa]

Verse equalization equalizes when there's something equivalent though, and doesn't give stuff a verse outright denies.

Hell BFR would just BFR a character to the user's hell anyways.

Even when there's no equivalent, if every character in a verse has something, and another verse lacks that thing, it's equalized for both characters to have it.

@Lap Also, I don't see where Medaka Box outright denies souls. It denies spiritual elements but not the construct of a "soul" itself, right?

 

[Wokistan]

We had a thread on this a little while ago that concluded that an equivalent is necessary.

 

[PaChi2]

Even when there's no equivalent, if every character in a verse has something, and another verse lacks that thing, it's equalized for both characters to have it.

@Lap Also, I don't see where Medaka Box outright denies souls. It denies spiritual elements but not the construct of a "soul" itself, right?

One piece vs Bleach says hi.

 

[Wokistan]

They do have a comparable energy though, in the form of haki. Others just do suffer from intangibility + invis and thus can't do much.

 

[PaChi2]

They do have a comparable energy though, in the form of haki. Others just do suffer from intangibility + invis and thus can't do much.

No. And Im not discussing that.

Just letting you know that after several threads Haki was deemed not comparable to reiatsu.

 

[Wokistan]

Well then those matches probably shouldn't be there, considering the other thread. Someone actually knowledgeable on either verse should be the one to bring it up.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Also, I don't see where Medaka Box outright denies souls. It denies spiritual elements but not the construct of a "soul" itself, right?

I was saying it all but denies the soul. My point is that it is almost exclusively materialist and implies the lack

 

[Agnaa]

Wait so characters with Ki manipulation that works on ordinary people can't use it in verses that don't mention Ki?

Characters with soul manipulation that works on ordinary people can't use it in verses that don't mention souls?

Characters which can modify "files" of ordinary people (Monika) can't use it in verses that don't mention people having files?

 

[Agnaa]

I was saying it all but denies the soul. My point is that it is almost exclusively materialist and implies the lack

And since it doesn't deny, it doesn't count.

 

[Wokistan]

Ki manip that works on ordinary people is fine, because it works on ordinary people. If it only worked on ki users, no they wouldn't be able to.

Verse equalization for souls has always defaulted to assuming they are a thing (which I don't really agree with, but not the time). However, if a verse states souls aren't a thing or something, it doesn't.

I don't know DDLC.

 

[Wokistan]

It can't really deny the soul if Ihiko apparently has one, though.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

It does deny it. It denys all spirtual elements, and that would include the soul. It doesn't need to outright say "Souls Don't Exist." When they imply that once someone truly dies there is nothing to resurect, that denys any kind of lasting soul

 

[PaChi2]

It does deny it. It denys all spirtual elements, and that would include the soul. It doesn't need to outright say "Souls Don't Exist." When they imply that once someone truly dies there is nothing to resurect, that denys any kind of lasting soul

Iihkiko literally keeps reincarnating thanks to the shiranuis keeping his soul and giving him new bodies. Hansode was the next body to host his soul.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

It can't really deny the soul if Ihiko apparently has one, though.

I'm gonna look into to, but Iihiko's type 6 is regarded more as the passing of conciousness or an analogue for Oral tradition passing on the legends of heros, warping them until they are almost unrecognisable from what they once were

 

[Agnaa]

DDLC in all of its fights has assumed that ordinary people have files which Monika can manipulate.

I'm making the same point I was before but you said "We had a thread on this a little while ago that concluded that an equivalent is necessary."

I agree that it may have been confusing jumping from "It works even if it's denied" to "It works even if there's no stated equivalent" but you still said that an equivalent is necessary, and now you're saying that an equivalent isn't necessary.

 

[Wokistan]

That would seem to constitute a soul though, even from Iap's description.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Iihkiko literally keeps reincarnating thanks to the shiranuis keeping his soul and giving him new bodies. Hansode was the mext body to host his soul.

I don't believe they say he was a soul. Do you have scans of this? I'm gonna go look at the times they refer to him and see if they ever do. They always regard it as a passing of conciousness, not the soul, and an analogue for oral tradition passing on the legend of a hero

 

[Agnaa]

It does deny it.

No it doesn't, as you said earlier.

It denys all spirtual elements, and that would include the soul.

Not necessarily.

It doesn't need to outright say "Souls Don't Exist."

Yes it does.

When they imply that once someone truly dies there is nothing to resurect, that denys any kind of lasting soul

No it doesn't, it denies that resurrection can work. Maybe they have souls but they can't be put back into bodies properly (I think I've heard of a verse or two that work this way).

 

[Wokistan]

Well take that up with DDLC then. Unlike the others I can't really speak for it, since I know nothing about it.

Thing is, you don't need to be a ki user to be hurt by ki. No equalization needs to take place there.

Souls are just sorta assumed for living things, which I don't even agree with personally.

 

[Agnaa]

Thing is, you don't need to be a ki user to be hurt by ki. No equalization needs to take place there.

I was specifically talking about manipulating ki, but this being done in a verse where even ordinary people have ki. If ordinary people in a verse have something which is manipulated, then it should equalize to other verses.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

No it doesn't, as you said earlier.

I was saying that it all but denies the soul outright.

Not necessarily.

How would denying all spritual elements not include the soul? The only exception I can think of is something like I/O where souls are informational, but even then that is pushing the line on if shadows even count as souls

Yes it does.

Why would it? First off, that makes for bad writing, second of all, if all the characters don't believe in souls then they would not need to deny the existence of them.

No it doesn't, it denies that resurrection can work. Maybe they have souls but they can't be put back into bodies properly (I think I've heard of a verse or two that work this way).

That may be the case in a vacuum, but the fact that they specifically go out of their way to contrast itself with dragon ball were souls exist and can be ressurected, points to the fact that they lack souls. If this was simply a matter of them not being able to fit back into the body, with no basis for this being the cosmology mind you, then Kumagawa should have mentioned some form of afterlife after Ajimu had passed and the classroom destoryed. iirc he simply said there was nothing

 

[PaChi2]

Im the president of the council, Im prepared to let everything break but my spirit.

Welp.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

PaChi that link doesn't work. I'm gonna wait for more context, but just from that out of context quote, I'm gonna bet she was just refering to Spirit as in Mentality or Will Power

 

[Chartate101]

Spirit can mewn things other than spirituality

 

[Agnaa]

I was saying that it all but denies the soul outright.

And because it doesn't deny the soul outright it doesn't deny the soul.

How would denying all spritual elements not include the soul? The only exception I can think of is something like I/O where souls are informational, but even then that is pushing the line on if shadows even count as souls

Because they denied every spiritual element that they mentioned, but they didn't deny every single spiritual element ever conceived by man. 99% of spirituality goes unmentioned by Medaka Box.

Why would it? First off, that makes for bad writing, second of all, if all the characters don't believe in souls then they would not need to deny the existence of them.

Being OP can require either creative or bad writing. And secondly, if they did believe in souls they wouldn't need to assert the existence of them.

That may be the case in a vacuum, but the fact that they specifically go out of their way to contrast itself with dragon ball were souls exist and can be ressurected, points to the fact that they lack souls. If this was simply a matter of them not being able to fit back into the body, with no basis for this being the cosmology mind you, then Kumagawa should have mentioned some form of afterlife after Ajimu had passed and the classroom destoryed. iirc he simply said there was nothing

It points to but it isn't conclusive enough to give an immunity to soul manipulation.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

And because it doesn't deny the soul outright it doesn't deny the soul.

Its called an implication. Not everything must be spelled out explicitly. When Medaka Box has almost entirely established a Materialistic cosmology, then we can naturally assume that souls do not exist based on the fact that a materialist world lacks souls

Because they denied every spiritual element that they mentioned, but they didn't deny every single spiritual element ever conceived by man. 99% of spirituality goes unmentioned by Medaka Box.

When they deny an afterlife or any kind of life after death, that already tosses out a large portion of spirituality. When conciousness and being is exclusively tied to the brain, that tosses out another massive portion. Alright, that already gets rid of every single major world relgions and about 95% of all spiritual doctrine across the world. Implying and Asserting a Materialist Cosmology denys even more.

Being OP can require either creative or bad writing. And secondly, if they did believe in souls they wouldn't need to assert the existence of them.

Cool, but we both know that Nisio is not the type to usually say shit outright. Also, that is blatantly false in a broad phylosphical sense. When you deny the existence of a soul or the spiritual and afterlife, you are basically done. When you believe in souls, that asserts much more. The only assertion of anything spiritual existing is when Zenkichi first encounters Ajimu and mistakens her for a King Yama, the god of the underworld, which the swiftly denys. Everything else is blatantly materialist

It points to but it isn't conclusive enough to give an immunity to soul manipulation.

At some point you just pull out occum's razor, or have to expand our capacity and read in between the lines. When he points exclusively to a materialist cosmology, you should assume a materialist cosmology. I also came here to raise the question if they would have resistence, not to prove they would

 

[Agnaa]

They couldn't just get resistance, they'd get immunity or nothing. And giving immunity to an ability from "reading between the lines" is way too shaky, in my opinion.

Also there is still a bunch of spirituality untouched. Fate, karma, gods, inanimate objects having some form of life, prayer, more that I'm not thinking of, etc.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I am actually pretty against characters getting immunity to soul hax just from lacking a soul when people like Pucci exist

I would argue that most of those things are not innately spiritual, but to answer your questions. Fate? Yes. That's the plot. Karma? Not in the way that Hinduism or Buddhism regard it. Gods? Ajimu and Hanten could be argued to be physical gods. Prayer? Nope, not unless Ajimu or Hanten feel like answering.

Most of those things other than prayer aren't innately spiritual anyway

 

[Agnaa]

Well that's the standard on the wiki, so if you want to downgrade every soulless character to just being resistant you're free to make that CRT.

Those things are definitely spiritual. They're not materialistic at least.

 

[Chartate101]

Honestly later this week I might make a CRT for how ridiculous our standards are for souls anyway but I digres.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

It is? well damn. Guess I am gonna need to make a downgrade for soulless characters. Thanks for informing me of this

Many of them are not physical, but they are not inherently spiritual. A verse may choose to make them such, but they are default neither here nor there