Shinza banshou discussion thread~Revival~

[Wankbreaker]

If you are good at editing you can always offer to help out

im supposed to be becoming a VSBW TL helper soon (check antvasimas wall for proof), so if you need help on that front, feel free to contact me on my wall or the TL help tread

 

[PrinceofPein]

im supposed to be becoming a VSBW TL helper soon (check antvasimas wall for proof), so if you need help on that front, feel free to contact me on my wall or the TL help tread

Are you on discord?

 

[LamentSatanael]

Are you on discord?

He's the person I was talking about on the server, quite good in Japanese.

I can send him the invite link if you want me to.

 

[Sparteh]

A random question: what do you think would happen if Wilhelm/Keishirou went hadou? Would its law be any different from a simple hadou assimilation ability?

 

[Wankbreaker]

Wouldn’t hadou gods have a sort of R>F relationship with their world? This could be more additional support for 1-A.
Mercurius talks of the Fourth Heaven like it’s some sort of story.

 

[Unqver]

Wouldn’t hadou gods have a sort of R>F relationship with their world? This could be more additional support for 1-A.
Mercurius talks of the Fourth Heaven like it’s some sort of story.

world = the canvas, the reality within the painting. The gods are "writers" ,can paint this painting at will.also same of the world and the singularity

in only dies, these has been described many time

 

[Wankbreaker]

world = the canvas, the reality within the painting. The gods are "writers" ,can paint this painting at will.also same of the world and the singularity

in only dies, these has been described many time

Yea, im aware. doesn’t really answer the question though.

 

[Unqver]

Yea, im aware. doesn’t really answer the question though.

Varhram linked to “Zero” is in fact equal to the gods. world is described as a fictional story. Between the two, it is clearly described as an absolute difference between the story and the reader
But I'm not sure these answer It's you want

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Wouldn’t hadou gods have a sort of R>F relationship with their world? This could be more additional support for 1-A.
Mercurius talks of the Fourth Heaven like it’s some sort of story.

pretty sure even the God cells of Yato even described this phenomenon as Mibu struck Akuro who was noted to be on a different plane from them and got completely decked so...

 

[Legacy30]

　瞬間、だらりと腕を下げた悪路の首に、宗次郎の斬気が真っ芯で命中した。
At that moment, Sojirou's zanki hit Akuro's neck with a straight center hit.

「効かんよ。(穢土)われらの(太極)ことわりを舐めるな」
"A useless move. Do not look down on our (Edo) law (Taikyoku)."

「―――――ッ」
"-----."

　なのに無傷。まったく無傷。薄皮一枚切り裂けない。それは紫織の拳を受け止めたときと同様で、頑強さと言うより別位相の物理を目にしたかのようだった。
And yet unharmed. Completely unharmed. Not even a thin layer of skin was torn off. It was the same as when he received Shiori's fist, and it was as if I had witnessed another phase of physics rather than robustness.

　喩えるなら、絵の中でどれだけ猛火を描写しようと、それが現実の人間を燃やせるわけがないのと同じ。
To use a metaphor, no matter how fierce a fire is depicted in a painting, it cannot burn a real person.

　立っている場所がそもそも違うという断絶感。
A sense of disconnection, of being in a different place to begin with.

　そして、絵に現実は害せなくても、現実が絵を破壊することは容易に出来る。
And even if the picture cannot harm reality, reality can easily destroy the picture.

　高次元から低次元への攻撃は、赤子の手を捻るよりも通しやすい。
An attack from a higher dimension to a lower dimension is easier to carry through than twisting a baby's hand.

That's speaking metaphorically to the dynamic of Yato's time defense blessing (repeatedly called as Edo and Mugen Kannazuki in the game) he gives out to his army in relation to everything else, not Taiji in general. Take a look at Tenma Umibouzo's situation.

Q: 夜刀の持つ軍勢変性により夜都賀波岐は強化されてますが、海坊主(神父様と子供たち) が他に比べてあっさりやられたのは、なぜでしょうか。

A: まずディエス経験者ならご存知の通り、彼は夜刀とさほど密な繋がりを持っていないというのが一点。そして淡海は夜刀の支配力が及ぶギリギリの場所というのが二点。要するに、身も蓋もない言い方をしてしまうと、海坊主さんは他の天魔勢より自由が利いたので最前線に特攻したけど、それにより無間神無月の加護が薄くなったのでやられたということ。加えて言うなら、夜行の存在がイレギュラー。波旬の代行者として曲がりになりにも太極に達していた彼がいなければ、龍明が東外流のような自爆技を使わない限り止められなかったはず。そしてあのとき龍明を失っていたら、不破之関で全滅していたでしょう。

He gets a weaker protection due to not having a close relationship with Yato and being close to the edge of his territory where his influence drops. Despite that, he still is a Tenma and has Yato's time defense blessing no matter how weak it is. Mibu, while only being a human with supernatural powers and no Taiji at that time before reaching Edo can cut off one of Umibouzo's arms.
You'll have to note when the context is speaking of the defense provided by Taiji in general versus defense provided by Yato's law which is difficult in KKK because the only gods the main characters fight are those belonging to Yato's army besides Hajun.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

That's speaking metaphorically to the dynamic of Yato's time defense blessing (repeatedly called as Edo and Mugen Kannazuki in the game) he gives out to his army in relation to everything else, not Taiji in general. Take a look at Tenma Umibouzo's situation.

True though the time armor is still part of Yato's law so there is that. Umibozu's situation is not only he's at the edge but he isn't that close too in connection no? So I think it's still valid to some degree. Also that same interview notes that Yakou's existence as an irregular (Hajun's agent) which allowed him to nuke Umibozu with Ryuumei being able to do the same but it would be through Shura which would result in her death. I also remembered how Yakou looks at all of creation from a different view as he said.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

True though the time armor is still part of Yato's law so there is that. Umibozu's situation is not only he's at the edge but he isn't that close too in connection no? So I think it's still valid to some degree. Also that same interview notes that Yakou's existence as an irregular (Hajun's agent) which allowed him to nuke Umibozu with Ryuumei being able to do the same but it would be through Shura which would result in her death. I also remembered how Yakou looks at all of creation from a different view as he said.

Pretty much.

In fairness, the Tenma's/Yato's (Ren) Legion having Time Armor is just a blessing they got from them as a part of the God's Legion.

Umibozu having that loose of a connection and being at the edge of where Yato's Law extended to is what put him at such a state where he had next to very little/no protection via Yato's Law. Then again, it is also that same interview in the VFB which said he was able to freely move around and away from Yato compared to the others but the inverse is true as said owo.

Yes, Madara's existence being irregular at the point when the Expedition team started to go out and explore was essential in whether he'd be around to fight alongside them or end up stuck in his Muken since he mentioned about his true self being there and only being able to exist physically with others through some weird,,,something with existence level or whatever. If it wasn't that stable or something, Ryuumei would have had to step in and use Shura as you said but that would kill her, and Masada stated that this would lead to the EE gang perishing at the battle with Morei and Akuro since they wouldn't have Madara and Ryuumei around to narrowly escape their deaths...or something.

 

[PrinceofPein]

He's the person I was talking about on the server, quite good in Japanese.

I can send him the invite link if you want me to.

Sure send him
Or he can add me @peinjo

 

[Tarang123]

Wouldn’t hadou gods have a sort of R>F relationship with their world? This could be more additional support for 1-A.
Mercurius talks of the Fourth Heaven like it’s some sort of story.

Isn't this already assumed? I'm fairly certain this is one of the areas that is gonna be focused on the most

 

[Tarang123]

That's speaking metaphorically to the dynamic of Yato's time defense blessing (repeatedly called as Edo and Mugen Kannazuki in the game) he gives out to his army in relation to everything else, not Taiji in general. Take a look at Tenma Umibouzo's situation.

He gets a weaker protection due to not having a close relationship with Yato and being close to the edge of his territory where his influence drops. Despite that, he still is a Tenma and has Yato's time defense blessing no matter how weak it is. Mibu, while only being a human with supernatural powers and no Taiji at that time before reaching Edo can cut off one of Umibouzo's arms.
You'll have to note when the context is speaking of the defense provided by Taiji in general versus defense provided by Yato's law which is difficult in KKK because the only gods the main characters fight are those belonging to Yato's army besides Hajun.

Yes it is, doesn't make it wrong when it also clearly defines how this kind of disconnection and higher level existence bullshit works in the verse, meaning it would obviously apply to the gods who have the very same stuff applied to. You can't just call it metaphorical and then completely write off any of the deeper implications it has.

How about the fact that one of Mercurius's most defining character traits is how he's basically completely disconnected from the world with him just viewing it as a story and him literally being too large to be part of it. He can only see it as a picture/story on a piece of paper or canvas (analogy doesn't really matter, you still get the point)

This entire argument is just insane to me

 

[Tarang123]

True though the time armor is still part of Yato's law so there is that. Umibozu's situation is not only he's at the edge but he isn't that close too in connection no? So I think it's still valid to some degree. Also that same interview notes that Yakou's existence as an irregular (Hajun's agent) which allowed him to nuke Umibozu with Ryuumei being able to do the same but it would be through Shura which would result in her death. I also remembered how Yakou looks at all of creation from a different view as he said.

Yeah there's an analogy made of Yakou viewing the world as a mandala. Basically a picture, using similar language that you'd see someone like Mercurius using to describe his disconnection from the world and allat

 

[Legacy30]

Yes it is, doesn't make it wrong when it also clearly defines how this kind of disconnection and higher level existence bullshit works in the verse, meaning it would obviously apply to the gods who have the very same stuff applied to. You can't just call it metaphorical and then completely write off any of the deeper implications it has.

How about the fact that one of Mercurius's most defining character traits is how he's basically completely disconnected from the world with him just viewing it as a story and him literally being too large to be part of it. He can only see it as a picture/story on a piece of paper or canvas (analogy doesn't really matter, you still get the point)

This entire argument is just insane to me

I wasn't talking about taiji in general because that scene is only talking about Yato's law of Mugen Kannazuki. One is something that belongs to all gods, the other is the most cracked defense in the entire series. Which is why this sense of disconnect in this scene specifically cannot be applied to all gods since none of them have Yato's law geared towards defense. It's so cracked, Masada said if Mercurius and Reinhard were to take Yato's place in resisting Hajun's law in KKK they would get splattered instantly. They wouldn't survive for 8,000 years, they'd be dead right from the start. Throughout KKK, once the EE saw the Tenma not being hurt because of this law when they landed on Edo, they had to find a solution to strip it off them and that's what Tenma Fukumetsu's actual purpose is. Like when fighting Akuro and Morei at Ezo, they first needed to destroy the law of Mugen Kannazuki or else they will be indestructible.

Mercurius being meta about the series isn't something new, that's Masada's writing in general. None of that is taken literally by the series. Being disconnected with the world isn't sufficient to calling Mercurius transcendent of the world despite being called a transcendent being, you can still be disconnected by just existing outside of it. Being too large for it is also not sufficient. There's a major difference between being like transcendent of everything for being too large and powerful and actually being transcendent. I'm not writing off the deeper implications, but unless something is done to solidify it, implications will just be implications.

I mean, let's take a look at Avesta where Bahlavan is strong enough to destroy Nadare before all of his powerups in fighting Magsarion. He's a mortal who can never become a Gudou God yet can still destroy Nadare who is the only pseudo Gudou God in Mitra's world, the same status as the Tenma who are also pseudo gods. Inconsistency much?

 

[PrinceofPein]

This argument is literally pointless as it does not change anything but at the same time it is annoying me

Mercurius being meta about the series isn't something new, that's Masada's writing in general.

No it is not

None of that is taken literally by the series.

Yes they are

Being disconnected with the world isn't sufficient to calling Mercurius transcendent of the world despite being called a transcendent being, you can still be disconnected by just existing outside of it.

This is a very ignorant argument.
Masada = Taikyoku gives the god control of all things in creation while disconnecting them from it, they become transcendent and view all of creation like a mandala (piece of art)
Shinza fan = That does not mean they are disconnected from it, he is just existing outside of it.

If there is anything I have learnt it is pointless to argue with people who make claims without substantiating them.

 

[Tarang123]

I wasn't talking about taiji in general because that scene is only talking about Yato's law of Mugen Kannazuki. One is something that belongs to all gods, the other is the most cracked defense in the entire series. Which is why this sense of disconnect in this scene specifically cannot be applied to all gods since none of them have Yato's law geared towards defense. It's so cracked, Masada said if Mercurius and Reinhard were to take Yato's place in resisting Hajun's law in KKK they would get splattered instantly. They wouldn't survive for 8,000 years, they'd be dead right from the start. Throughout KKK, once the EE saw the Tenma not being hurt because of this law when they landed on Edo, they had to find a solution to strip it off them and that's what Tenma Fukumetsu's actual purpose is. Like when fighting Akuro and Morei at Ezo, they first needed to destroy the law of Mugen Kannazuki or else they will be indestructible.

Mercurius being meta about the series isn't something new, that's Masada's writing in general. None of that is taken literally by the series. Being disconnected with the world isn't sufficient to calling Mercurius transcendent of the world despite being called a transcendent being, you can still be disconnected by just existing outside of it. Being too large for it is also not sufficient. There's a major difference between being like transcendent of everything for being too large and powerful and actually being transcendent. I'm not writing off the deeper implications, but unless something is done to solidify it, implications will just be implications.

I mean, let's take a look at Avesta where Bahlavan is strong enough to destroy Nadare before all of his powerups in fighting Magsarion. He's a mortal who can never become a Gudou God yet can still destroy Nadare who is the only pseudo Gudou God in Mitra's world, the same status as the Tenma who are also pseudo gods. Inconsistency much?

But it does apply to all gods. Why would it not? They're all on the same kind of existence. You can't pick and choose.

My point of Mercurius being meta is that it's more specific to his character. One thing stated in his final fight with Ren and Reinhard is that he subconsciously wanted to be one of the actors instead of just a spectator or the author. Basically he's quite literally incapable of interacting with the world which should be obvious considering he requires shades, this disconnection is quite literally stated to be because he's just too existentially large in size to fit. Even if you use Gudou Gods who are more human sized the same concept applies to them.

I'm not saying there's some plot manipulation shit going on, I'm talking about the way in which the concept of disconnection and superiority that the gods have over the world is treated. The gods are so much higher than everyone that the world below them is more like a story or a picture on a piece of paper than anything genuinely tangible and they're too big to actually get into it or interact with due to their transcendent nature, hence why they need sensories that can interact witht he world. we know this.

I don't think Nadare is quite the same but idk I'd have to revisit Avesta cause there is very clearly something you're either leaving out or missing.

Again, nothing you're stating adds anything genuinely contradicting

 

[Tarang123]

Being disconnected with the world isn't sufficient to calling Mercurius transcendent of the world despite being called a transcendent being, you can still be disconnected by just existing outside of it.

Not when your disconnection is directly because of being too big and the world being like a drawing on a piece of paper. You can't pick and choose what to take in and what to discord.

Edit: My bad, I forgot this stupid ahh site censors certain words

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Afaik Mags was stronger than Mithra but just couldn't kill her because he wasn't a God, just a very strong dude so legacy isn't wrong there.

The Gods aren't that special and most likely wont even reach 1A under the new system

 

[PrinceofPein]

he wasn't a God

He wasn't a Hadou god
Keyword "Hadou god". He can be stronger than her all he wants but as far as he was a madou and not hadou she would not allow him ascend the throne. So he was a God just not the type that can ascend the throne. As he can actually kill her and defeat her, he just will have to fight infinitely for that to happen. Mithra simply would not allow a vacuumed throne, the moment he became hadou, she accepted her defeat and let him ascend

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Afaik Mags was stronger than Mithra but just couldn't kill her because he wasn't a God, just a very strong dude so legacy isn't wrong there.

You don't have a body pillow like me so you already have L takes

Srsly though Mags just has an attribute problem. He became a hadou which was weaker than his Madou style so really Mags had to reach a hadou's level of power and existence but due to how he has to 1 V 1 for his stick...when mithra can just stall then there is that. So its just Mags attributes won't let him kill Mithra in a realistic frame.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Is this verse getting added back into the wiki anytime soon? Just being curious