LOTM_Historian
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I'm saying that both the void and the flame are bound by laws that originate from the flame. The same applies to nothingness, it, too, is subject to those laws.
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Shadow Slave Low 1-A upgrade
- Thread starter Seraphor12
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Those questions would be invalid even if WoG was canon
Especially when I know the person who asked 2nd question is a powerscaler
EL_xWatcher1234x
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Agree with L_H
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NITROMonkey1000
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I agree with table here ngl
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agreeing with a person whose argument is contigent on using author's statements where everything he states isnt canon(self-addmitedly) and misrepresenting information via ignoring literal textual cues that give context to what scans mean and instead posts them bare naked, misleading people to take them in their face value? Lmao the fact that this thread is on nigh 50 replies with 95% of just obtuse comments is ridiculous
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First of all under your scan it isn't even said that Nothingness 'sealed' the VoidSo you're telling me that Mountain Level Sunny, who tanks Nothingness (the fog on the hollow mountains), the thing that sealed the Void (which you're saying is L1-A and the source of everything in the verse) is actually L1-A now?
No word about Nothingness in the scans, so the connection between Sunny resisting Nothingness and it 'sealing' the Void lacks actual evidence within your very first comment.Mountain Level Saint Sunny = L1-A
Anyways, the Void’s scaling is weird, it was sealed by a combination of nothingness, the universe and the laws the gods created (such as time, space directions etc).
I disagree with it being L1-A.
And I know why you don't speak about it, because the context of word 'sealing' works as border and Nothingness as just a filter preventing influence from energies from the Void to seep into.
So by your idea: Gods sealed them in the net made of flame(flame and desire refers to same thing) and then separated the very thing(flame) that constituted the seal? Bravissimo
You keep making arguments involving Nothingness without showing scans to support your idea of it 'binding' and 'sealing'. In fact the only comment that had scans about Nothingness, contextualizing it as border control, and you still proceeded to talk about 'sealing' in response, effectively showing that you ignored all points the supporters tried to explain to you. Further arguments of Nothing are unworthy of even addressing until you provide actual evidence.
Do you know what is power level? It is potency of one's attributes, Void's attribute of vastness will be just so superior that concepts won't be able to influence it as a whole in the first place, while the potency of attributes within void beings allows them to partially resist laws. The only case of defying the law(death) that we know of required that being to succumb to it in the first place. This is ignoring that your entire inductive case lacks textual evidence to support it
apart from WoG being invalid argument, one of those comments literally says Void was imprisoned metaphysicially and not geographically - implying that the influence was cut off, not void itself
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First of all, the scan there does generalize that Absolute Laws in general are resistable.
Secondly, the issue here is that now, the entire case for Low 1-A—which was that the Void is too vast for the absolute laws—seems to now be unsupported. This is because the reason why things are capable of resisting these laws is now tied to, as you say here, the potency of these attributes. This is, in fact, a powerlevel which has nothing to do with size.
And you go on to say that the Void isn’t affected in the first place, but what does that have to do with size, specifically? It can very well (and most likely) simply mean that the Void is too “strong” to be affected in the first place—the same way lesser Void Beings resist it.
And also, has it even ever been stated why the Void wasn’t capable of actually being sealed? Plus, I would argue that the Void very well was affected in some aspects considering the Flame was separated from it.
Lastly, please correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I remember, can’t the laws be weakened or strengthened in some cases? Now whether or not this is true doesn’t really matter too much, but if it is true, then it just adds to the idea that the whole thing is in relation to powerlevel and potency.
So for now, I’m planning on staying neutral, but I’ll wait for the thoughts of the admins.
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This is just strawman. I presented one possible explanation on how that works and you taken it as bona fide. Attacking that proposition doesn't legitimately disprove scale unless you can provide textual evidence supporting laws are resisted based on attributal potency in the first place.
we literally defined 'strong'(power level) as potency of an attribute and on that you agreed to explain your second issue.this means that potency of attribute endlessness is directly corresponding to powerlevel, introducing the concept of size(which is one of the potent Void attributes) not mattering and it being done in 'strenght' alone(which we predicated upon potency of attributes) makes argument contradict itself.
it wasn't explained yet. the only idea i can draw for you is that flame feeds on the voids 'energies'(i call it energies just to simplify fuel) to exist, as such, it is the ultimate source of sustaining everything(which is why flame will dissapear with time as it is cut off from void and barely self-sustains), which can be concluded that you cannot reach a power level to affect the void by stacking as only totallity of void is tantamount to itself. but this is just a speculation drawn from a singular fact in the story, better to wait for more info.
Not, not really 'weakened' or 'strenghtened', it is more so if law of time is responsible for time and some beings can slow down time to near halt and so on, it isnt altering concept as a whole but affecting its counterpart in physicality.
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I agree
You asked why the Void wasn’t sealed or why it’s not affected. That’s clarified in Ch. 2442, Key here is that Nothingness didn’t "seal" the Void in a binding sense. It was used to separate the Flame from it, not to cage the Void. The Void is still what it is — formless, boundless, unending chaos — but it’s no longer directly in contact with the Flame, which now burns in a closed self-sustaining vacuum.
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Maybe I am confusing things and getting it all wrong. But are you saying the verse cosmology is L 1-A and Saint sunny scale to this?
I'm only at chapter 800+ as of now.
I'm only at chapter 800+ as of now.
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No saint sunny is not L1A in anyway. This is only for void. You might have read a little reference about it if you are at 800 or more.
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i don't understand anything @BestMGQScalerEver is saying but i agree with him
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So you agree with Low 1A scale?
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yes
peak web novel
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I don’t see how this addresses my point at all, though? I’m literally saying that the fact that it’s resisted on potency is a disqualifier in and of itself.
The entire thing with L1A is due to the size of the specific object being so big that not possible extension of space can describe it.
But what you seem to be doing here is fallaciously equating the fact it resisted (or for some reason not explained yet, wasn’t affected in the first place) the effects if the laws to it being “too big” to be contained by them.
Also, another issue is that it seems the laws restrict the Void things in terms of quality and not quantity, so it just seems like concept manip and unscalable in size.
I think the very fact that you admit you don’t know how the laws even interacted with the Void in the first place is a huge problem, no?
(Also, are you interpreting “potency” here as referring to the “size” of a quality or whatever? Because I straight up disagree with that notion, and where in the series would that even be supported?)
Verezen
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This is just a matter of you not being caught up I think. Also some blatant misrepresentation of events going onSo you're telling me that Mountain Level Sunny, who tanks Nothingness (the fog on the hollow mountains), the thing that sealed the Void (which you're saying is L1-A and the source of everything in the verse) is actually L1-A now?
Mountain Level Saint Sunny = L1-A
Anyways, the Void’s scaling is weird, it was sealed by a combination of nothingness, the universe and the laws the gods created (such as time, space directions etc).
I disagree with it being L1-A.
1. Sunny resisted Nothing for 3 reasons.
A. The Nothing in the hollow mountains is far weaker than what surrounds the flame as it is said to be mere wisps that leak in.
B. Sunny’s incarnation in Ravenheart anchored his sense of self allowing him to retain his sanity.
C. Sunny was empowered by the flame of desire, something that at the very least is just as if not stronger than, Nothing.
2. Nothing does not seal the Void. It merely affects the Void Beings. Beings who are not empowered by the flame. Even then there are Void Beings who broke through this cage and entered the realms regardless. For example the Void Being who shattered part of the Shadow Realm in the “Fragment of the Shadow Realm” runes and the Void Being who was killed by the gods in the hollow mountains, from whom True Darkness originates from.
3. Nothing simply separates the Void and the flame. And it was used by the Gods (avatars of the flame) to create a barrier between the flame of desire, after which the flame entered a self sustaining cycle of creating and burning its own fuel.
Verezen
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I obviously agree with the CRTHello, this CRT is for The Void from Shadow Slave which can be upgraded to Low 1-A based on BDE type 2 existence. All of the info about it is in the blog. For this scale @Lycenum_lycopersicum @Verezen @Super_Nova @BestMGQScalerEver @NITROMonkey1000 have helped me.
Shadow Slave Cosmology
vsbattles.fandom.com
Void Beings exist within the Void, which is repeatedly described as boundless, endless, everlasting, and eternal, with no fixed structure or defined boundaries. It is also stated to be everchanging, not limited by space or time, existing in a pure state of chaos or emptiness with no frame of reference. The Void predates all reality and exists before and beyond the Flame of Desire, which later gave birth to the gods and the structured multiverse. As explicitly stated, even the very concept of infinity is inherently tied to the concept of space, and both of these were created by the gods alongside time and other Absolute Laws. In other words, the entire framework of dimensionality, including space, time, and even infinity itself, is something constructed after and beneath the Void. These laws did not originally exist meaning that the Void is not contained within them, but that they were made in response to its nature. Because of this, the Void can be understood as a realm that is too large and unstructured to be described using conventional dimensional systems. It contains no metrics or dimensionality, the very framework of space and time is a subsystem created after it. So, it matches with the Variant One of BDE type 2 definition so the Void should be Low 1-A with Beyond-Dimensional Existence Type 2.
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This is just a matter of you not being caught up I think. Also some blatant misrepresentation of events going on
1. Sunny resisted Nothing for 3 reasons.
A. The Nothing in the hollow mountains is far weaker than what surrounds the flame as it is said to be mere wisps that leak in.
B. Sunny’s incarnation in Ravenheart anchored his sense of self allowing him to retain his sanity.
C. Sunny was empowered by the flame of desire, something that at the very least is just as if not stronger than, Nothing.
2. Nothing does not seal the Void. It merely affects the Void Beings. Beings who are not empowered by the flame. Even then there are Void Beings who broke through this cage and entered the realms regardless. For example the Void Being who shattered part of the Shadow Realm in the “Fragment of the Shadow Realm” runes and the Void Being who was killed by the gods in the hollow mountains, from whom True Darkness originates from.
3. Nothing simply separates the Void and the flame. And it was used by the Gods (avatars of the flame) to create a barrier between the flame of desire, after which the flame entered a self sustaining cycle of creating and burning its own fuel.
Verezen
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1. The problem with this is that never is it said that “power” is allowing them to resist the laws
the main law we have evidence for being resisted by Void Beings is the law of Death. So unfortunately there is no evidence to show a Void being can simply deny the laws of space and time by virtue of being “too strong”, only death. And that too it was by shattering part of the Shadow Realm (aka the land of the dead) and then escaping.2. What we have in the story is the Void being presented with 3 main natures. Endlessness, Everlastingness (Eternal), and Everchangingness. The laws of space, time, and death, which include and contain all extensions of the concepts of space, time and death, were created to counter these natures. Space to counter endlessness, time to counter everlastingness, death to counter everchangingness. The Void remaining Eternal, Endless and Everchanging regardless means that the Void’s natures of those 3 things is too great foe the absolute laws to seal. Ie, it is too endless for space, too eternal for time, and too everchanging for death. This is blatantly in line with BDE 2 as the Void is too large for spatiotemporal dimensions to apply to it.
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this is really besides the point. all i said that under terms agreed by you and me powerlevel is substantiated by potency of one's attribute, which is size in this case, potency of size will entail,well,how big thing is, so the potency of size of Void is just being too big to be entailed by concept of space. We can go back and forth insomuch as qualifiers for L-1A are concerned. However, this discussion is ultimately null because the entire premise of the argument was not shown to be refferenced or supported by textual evidence in the first place(at least as far as this discussion went), therefore argument cannot be engaged as a valid disqualifier.
Yes
I believe the link was substantiated by the blog itself
Endlessness is a descriptive of size(so in this case size is quality and endlessness just the extent/quantity of it for a particular being who has size), taking it away would entail size reduction which is quantitative , you literally just become smaller or finite-valued.
I agree with latter notion, should have probably waited for more clarifications since series ends next year anyway. Potency is just an extent of an attribute(so the potency of quality 'size' is how big it is within particular being), it isnt brought up in the series anywhere. Historian brough up imaginary issue with pressumed conclusion it being power level and I answered in similar vein. As I said, if the initial premise cannot be proven to be supported by source material, then I have no reason to believe for power level interpretation to be valid or defend notion at all.
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This is my main problem.1. The problem with this is that never is it said that “power” is allowing them to resist the laws
2. What we have in the story is the Void being presented with 3 main natures. Endlessness, Everlastingness (Eternal), and Everchangingness. The laws of space, time, and death, which include and contain all extensions of the concepts of space, time and death, were created to counter these natures. Space to counter endlessness, time to counter everlastingness, death to counter everchangingness. The Void remaining Eternal, Endless and Everchanging regardless means that the Void’s natures of those 3 things is too great foe the absolute laws to seal. Ie, it is too endless for space, too eternal for time, and too everchanging for death. This is blatantly in line with BDE 2 as the Void is too large for spatiotemporal dimensions to apply to it.
You have no idea how it (supposedly) resisted the laws, while simultaneously assuming that it happened the way which most fits the narrative for Low 1-A.
Also, I thought they never even sealed the Void to begin with? Wasn’t the whole point that that never even occurred and in fact all that happened was the isolation of the flame? Or am I missing something?
Also, how do you reconcile the fact other Void Beings resisted it? Are they Low 1-A as well, while others who are marginally weaker are 2-B? Isn’t that just completely ridiculous?
Honestly, it would’ve been better to simply wait for the story to finish first.
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You can simply prescribe the notion of “having no end” as a quality. Affecting it with the absolute law just means removing that quality and adding an end to the Void. This generally has nothing to do with quantity itself.
Verezen
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1. We do know. Its endlessness is blatantly too much for the law of space. You would have to force an interpretation that fits your own agenda to say anything else here. There is also zero evidence for power alone allowing one to resist the laws of space and time lol.
2. Again where are the instances of Void Beings negating time or space? I alr told you how the only instance of one resisting death worked. He pulled a Kratos. The guy broke part of the realm which contains the dead and then escaped through the whole. Its not like he denied his death or sumn through sheer power, rather that he simply held enough sanity to escape the land of the dead. Ultimately he is still dead.
3. The CRT was made long after the arguments for the Void being L1A were constructed and readied. You should know about that actually. We have been waiting for more solid evidence, and the recent chapters claiming desire itself was seperated rather than the Void being caged was enough for what we needed to prove (along with the other evidence ofc. Which you should probably reread cause you are misunderstanding things)
4. When did I say the Void was sealed
I said it could not be sealed by virtue of it being too endless and eternal for time and space and too everchanging for death. If it could be contained by time or space, why did the Gods have to seperate the flame, and then go through the effort of creating a cage for the flame and then making the universe so the flame can sustain itself through itself? It is blatantly stupid. The verse is clearly presenting that the Void could not actually be sealed in anyway. To say otherwise is to force an interpretation that goes against the scans and narrative with zero evidence to back it. Or do you have evidence for beings who are “strong” resisting and defying the laws?
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doesn't cut it, it is slippery slope to describe any extraordinary extent of a quality as a quality on its own. also this doesnt fit the example of how death law was defied either
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That's strawman, Argument from ignorance lol
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bro just saying random fallacies
W OP
W OP
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we gotta stop clogging the thread atp. no reason to answer to anything that doesnt have hyperlinks or text reference. entire argument on the first page pushes point about nothigness with no references whatsoever and all hyperlinks are self-debunking WoG. message wall admins and let them decide if evidence is enough
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Your whole point is that it’s L1A because it’s too vast for space, but can you show me where that vastness is portrayed?
Because the issue I’m facing here is that series doesn’t specify why the Void could not be sealed. I’m arguing that it could very well be powerlevel, as well. And from what I’m reading—that wouldn’t contradict the narrative here at all.
Both explanations are sufficient, yet you choose to interpret the one that specifically supports your case here.
Though, I still disagree with the size explanation. The Void Beings escaping or “resisting” sounds much more like a power or potency thing rather than a size thing, because the latter implies it “grew” to a proper class. Also, you keep ignoring the point that that scan still states that Void Beings are capable of resisting the laws in general. That is true, even if only 1 instance is specifically shown.
And life and death are qualities, by the way. So is to be everchanging or static.
Instead of clogging up the CRT with needless stuff like this, you could at least start by addressing my arguments, or at the very least, actually list out and explain all the fallacies you supposedly claim I’m making.
Same can be said for all the other people claiming “straw man” or whatever other fallacy. If there’s something I have no knowledge on, that’s your burden to explain—not mine.
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Laws of existence are carved out by flame; flame cannot affect whole void - it only amounted to isolate itself from influence of void/its energies. since all laws are tantamount to flame, and flame is incapable of influencing whole Void, ergo concepts cannot do that either. The concepts were made to counteract aspects of void(space/endless, time/eternal, death/everchanging, imperfct/perfect), since they cannot devoid void of those qualities in totality, it leads to assumption of those qualities being too much(it is too endless, too eternal, too everchanging to get reduced by laws. the power level is additional assumption that requires extra proof to be as valid because what is a power level of just a place?). Void beings dont resist laws, the only example is that one defied law of death by escaping death realm and even then it isnt full defiament. Death was created as death realm where beings who die get purified and filtered off coruption over time, void being died, entered there and escaped before getting purified which is narratively a defiament but not in a power scaling sense that matters.
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Wait, would the flame then be greater than the law of space? Because that’s honestly way more problematic if that is the case.
And again, you keep on extrapolating the fact that the Void is not sealed to it being “too vast to be contained by space in a quantitative sense”. You have no proof this is the case—you are simply assuming it is. All you know is that it is not sealed—that’s about it.
And also, the fact all the laws do is isolate the flame says nothing about quantity as it is not even clear that it separated a part of the Void’s whole. (Unless if the Flame encompasses a meaningful part of the Void—though you would have to prove it does that as well).
And you keep denying this point but the very scan you use literally says they can resist the laws. Stop ignoring this fact. Maybe it doesn’t specify how they accomplish that, but it specifies they do somehow. If “death” in the verse is just being in this single realm, how are you to prove the other laws function as necessary for L1A?
It just seems like the whole argument revolves on a bunch of inductions supported by some vague assumptions—with alternatives that are not only feasible, but also do explain the whole thing just as well.
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@Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Everything12 @Ovy7 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @RatherClueless @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster @FinePoint @SamanPatou
Are any of you willing to help out here please?
Are any of you willing to help out here please?
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another gripe with asserting that there are some 'power levels' explaining concepts not working on Void rather than just it being due to extent of its own attributes is that it requires way more sets and assumption to be true. conventially defined hierarchy of power ends on gods, which are species of void beings, if we are to classify all void beings in power levels than we need a characteristic based on which we can do so, similarly how series does it for mundane - divine hierarchy. what will our parameter then by which we rank?amount of soul shards? - void being might have them but Void as a place doesnt. Keep in mind that even if we were to invent such classification we would need enormous text evidence to base it upon which there is not. so no, power level gets Occam's Razzor'd
No it isnt even an issue, it is originating point for it and blog maintained so forever.
adressed in the beggining
Why are you being purposefully obtuse?do you read what i even write? not only there is no 'resist', it is defy, i also explained in the last 2 lines what it entailed and how doesnt work the way you implied.
Our argument relies on less assumptions than any attempt in debunking it
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Yea this one is my fault. But defiance is still a problem, because it still implies resistance. I defiance. Again, my point stands that you can’t explain how the laws work and how they are defied and whatnot. I’m not ignoring your death stuff, I’m saying that it makes everything else more vague.
1) This is a non-response. You’re simply saying there’s not a metric by which you can accurately measure it, but when has that ever been an issue in fiction? Some powerlevels are simply arbitrary and that’s it.
Like, your point doesn’t even say that a powerlevel is impossible which is the crazy thing.
Again, this is just a concession that at the end of the day, the whole point is based on an assumption.
2) It is very much so an issue, because if the flame is “vaster” in any capacity than space, then it kills Low 1-A because then you have to imply that the Flame is Low 1-A as well, and I don’t think I have to explain why this is an issue (especially the fact that it’s specifically not endless).
Also, it implies the reason the flame is greater is related to quality and ontology, which can then be translated to the Void.
Also, can we talk about this.
Not only does it imply a progressive freedom from the laws (helping the powerlevel point), but it also implies that the laws only span the flame (existence) and not the void (nonexistence) and it implies the boundary is placed only in regards to the quality of the thing in question (nonexistence and existence).
LOTM_Historian
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We know for a fact that characters at a certain power level in Shadow Slave can resist absolute laws. You can become a Sovereign through this, Sunny became one by defying the absolute law of death (also Nephis, both are like mountain level lmao). Naturally, gods, who are void beings, are described as existing outside the boundaries of the absolute laws that govern all of existence. They're not entirely free from these laws, but they possess a kind of liberty in how those laws apply to them. As one character puts it: "Fighting a god, lesser or otherwise, is different from fighting any other Nightmare Creature. That is because gods exist outside the boundary of absolute laws that govern all of existence. They are not free from them, but...let's just say that they have more liberty in interpreting how these laws work, as applied to them. What I mean to say is that the existence of deities, from the point of view of us mortals, is inherently irrational. He shook his head."
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I did explain how death worked. it works by means of purifying and striping down to soul shards all dead beings in death realm(such purifications evokes finality that everlasing void creatures cannot escape). the void being defied the law by dying(thus entering death realm) and escaping before it got purified.
It would have been the case if Shadow Slave didnt have metiocously crafted and measurable power system hierarchy. also what is 'power level' then? explain this and how one can measure or negate concepts with that.
i dont know what powerlevel entails under your saying, so i do not refer to it with absolute clarity.
Flames was never described as vaster than law of space. only that flame was used to create concepts and so those laws are linked to flame(existence) itself
That scan is in relation to physics-breaking explanation, not laws. void isnt non-existence, nothigness is. so the dual dichotomy doesnt work
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1)I already explained what law of death entails twice and how this doesnt relate to what you make it out to be.
2)them having liberty of those laws adresses nothing. gods died because death was absolute, gods had flaws because of universal law of imperfections.
3) the explanation you sent is supported solely by near-physics breaking feats by the way, like slowing time down or growing infinitely. none of those substantiates the negation of the law on conceptual level
LOTM_Historian
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Dawg, it literally says "absolute laws that govern all of existence"
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so?this is a non-point by you, the nominal reference doesnt pressupose internal workings. if that was true laws wouldnt have worked on beings that arent part of flame(existence) either lmao
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I'm a bit busy right now, but if someone would post this thread on my wall so I don't forget about it I would appreciate it.Are any of you willing to help out here please?
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