Several concerns about The Protagonist (Persona 3) 's info page

[Szutjo]

This is my opinion and note after reading Persona 3's Protagonist info page.

As part of the game mechanism, the persona user inherit the stat from the persona including the persona weakness and resistance. Therefore, all the field about Attack potency, Speed, Durability should be filled with "varied according to the current inhabiting persona".

Then i would like to provide a definition for the term "current inhabiting persona". This is obviously straight-forward, the "current inhabiting persona" is the persona that is currently inhabited the user. However, there is a difference between the game and the movie/anime that you will need to consider. In game you can change persona without the need of them being materialized. In the anime and movie (persona 4 anime and persona 3 movie), the persona must be summoned into the real world for the change to happen. The "current inhabiting persona" then provides the user with Strength, Magic, Endurance, Agility, Luck.


As stated from this source.

Strength-Indicates the effectiveness of persona's physical attacks.

This also increase the user attack too. Therefore, the field Striking Strength and Attack Potency will be affected by this Strength.


Magic-Indicates the effectiveness of the persona's magic skills.

This includes the healing power of below-High-tier healing spells too. (High-tier healing spells are those that fully heal the user) Attack Potency will also be decided by this too.


Endurance-Indicates the effectiveness of the persona's defensive abilities.

In short, this is the user's Durability.


Agility-affects a persona's hit and evasion rates.

In another word, this is what Speed is.


Luck-Affects the possibillity of the persona performing critical hits and evading attacks.

Since we don't use luck in a debate here i think this isn't needed to be further clarified.


Personas also have some impacts on the user's certain mental state (as indicated by their ability of passively being immune to Panic, Charm, Rage, Fear, and Distress or actively remove these ailments from the user or the user's allies) for example Asura protect the User from all previous stated mental ailments or Narcissus using charmdi on another ally to release them from the charm effect.


Another thing the user will inherit from the Personas is their resistance/weakness about certain magic and physical attack as showed in the 1st Persona 3 movie, Jack Frost block the Priestess's Ice Attack; Orochi block Elec attack twice, Genbu block ice attack from Loki and Rakshasa hold his own against Yoshitsune's physical attack from persona 4 anime. All of those evidence in the movie and anime showed that the Persona is summoned to resist the incoming attack.


Some other note about the attacks section:

Nilfheim and other ice attack do not create a frosty explosion but freeze the target. The ice actually being broken by the target and sometimes it bring along with it certain parts (such as the limbs of the Emperor and Empress shadow)

The Light (Samsara and all hama spells) and Dark power (Die for me and all mudo spells) in Persona series seems to be some kinds of attack that completely go through Durability because they either miss or kill the target.

Jack Brothers: The dual Jack Frost and Pyro Jack making a short comedy show and try to make all enemies to laugh till they trip and fall. However, some of them will not fall either because they are not tripped or they don't find that amusing.

 

[Sieghart.chaser]

I agree most of it althougt i like to clarify that hama and mudo is not kill. In game, when all cast inflicted by mudo or hama. They are not dead but unconcious.

And maybe we should add immunity in ability list since we can't ignore personas resistance. And teleport shoud be added since trafuri is one of persona skill minato had.

 

[Szutjo]

Problem is the Shadow that is affected by mudo and hama is killed.

 

[Sieghart.chaser]

Remember that Igor or someone says that Shadow is manifestation of human mind given form? Lets just say Hama and Mudo attack mind ignoring durability. that's way all cast is unconcious and not dead but since Shadow is the mind it self. they are dead.

 

[Sieghart.chaser]

• That's why all cast.

 

[Szutjo]

So we can classify Light and Dark attack as mental attack?

 

[Shozo_Irie]

I agree with all the thread except the part where hama and mudo are not insta-kill. In all the wikis and even in the Enterbrain's Official Japanese Guide are described as instant kill skills and although it has been a long time ago I still renember how a Shadow kill me with Mudoon and that led me to a poethic (and unfair) game over scene where Igor mentions that I'm dead not unconcious.

 

[Sieghart.chaser]

Your character its killed because you're unconcious. Yes it says instant kills. but the game not say so because if your HP turn in to zero. it says unconcious, try play it again. See flavor text of all revive item and skill. is there word says you revived from dead? only plume of dusk say "miraculously restore hp from dead" that mean it can only be invoked when leader is unconcious. because if leader is dead. than every party will be disoriented and killed by shadows.


All item and skill that revive other party only says "fallen ally" it doens;t mean they are dead. because unconcious can be treated as fallen too.

 

[Shozo_Irie]

I can see that revive could mean bring back to life or to consciousness, but in my opinion they are refering to the former.

Plume of Dusk is not the only thing that links hama and mudo to death:

Prayers Beads, low revival chance for death from Darkness.

Rosary, low revival chance for Light-induced death.

Spirit Bracers, revives upon death with 1 Hp remaining once per battle

 

[Sieghart.chaser]

but still. the game says unconcious. I respect your opinion of course. but try play the game again.

when you let your other party unconcious because what ever attack him/her (Like Hama or Mudo) try to go outside of tartarus without healing your unconcious/dead party member.\

Miraculously, they just says they are tired and go home, and their hp only 1 left. that mean they somehow regain their concious them self after we go out. I know this is pretty much game logic, but i just want to point that out.

 

[Sieghart.chaser]

I should add that somehow they revive them self after we try to go out of tartarus. if they are dead, then they shouln't come back to life without being revived by items or spells.\

 

[Shozo_Irie]

In my opinion this is only a game mechanic, everytime someone dies should remain dead (hello Shinjiro) but no one would play a game like this (well maybe some masochists who are willing to repeat the game over and over until they beat it). I also respect your theory, it's well written and there is a lot of good though behind it, but it contradicts what the authors of the franchise want to express in the games, movies, in the guides, etc.(although it's true that they could had done a better job representing it)

Before I played the original game I played some Shin Megami Tensei games like Nocturne, Lucifer's call and Digital Devil Saga (I like them, altough they are a little too much dark for my taste), I played Persona 3 FES, then the "remake" for PSP, Persona 4, Persona 1 ,2, Golden, Arena, Ultimax and Dancing All Night (I would even play Driving All the Afternoon if they decided to create such monstrosity). I watched Persona 4 the animation, Survivor and Persona 3 the Movies. I even watched some Let's Play of 3 and 4, and even then I can not accept you opinion as what the authors want to convey.

You said that if the leader is inconcious, everyone is disoriented and the shadows kills them, can you show any proof of this?. Even though there are characters like Mitsuru or Akihiko who has more experience fighting shadows than the protagonist

 

[Sieghart.chaser]

Well yeah, i agree about author can representing it better. But still. There is no proof that hama and mudo is really kill in anime, movies, etc.

Wow. As expected from hardcore player, i only play p3, p3p, p3FES, arena and digital devil saga series.

and about proof if minato is dead all party will be disoriented and killed. This is just game logic though, but if minato is defeated, its game over. there is other rpg who is not like that (not all, but you know what i mean) that's why i sometimes getting mad. I mean, we still have other party who can revive us but we can't because game over. And about other party bring killed is just my headcanon though.

 

[Shozo_Irie]

For economical reasons I still have a long way to go until I become a real hardcore Persona player (Ah my sweet and elusive Persona Q, someday we will meet outside my dreams).

Just a curious question how it was playing Arena without playing 4 or Golden? Do you notice something missing?

 

[Sieghart.chaser]

Sorry, i should add that i also play p4, not golden though but i know the storyline because i'm not afraid with spoiler. P4 and golden is almost the same in addition with mary and adachi social link and etc but the storyline has not change so much. Thats why i'm not really want to buy it.

For economical reason. You still hardcore player in my book.

And back to Mudo and Hama. I remember in arena that ken and koromaru instant kill is combination of hama and mudo. And its smite their enemies without even leaving their bodies. But still, this could be also game mechanic. I mean look at junpei instant kill and Yukari!

 

[Sieghart.chaser]

I hope persona 5 arena will have Minato in it since elizabeth just begin her journey with Thanatos. But if not, maybe we can have some new game called 'Persona 3 salvation' or 'Persona 6'.

If 1 and 2 theme is about sin. 3 is about death, 4 is about truth, 5 its about freedom. Then six should be salvation with Eluzabeth as our protagonist!

Sorry i'm rambling something unrelated, but i just want share my feeling toward Minato, and i hope he will be free.

 

[Shozo_Irie]

I also hope to see my favourite elevator attendant (and Aigis) saving Minato

 

[TheOmniGamer98]

Is the Universe Arcana superior to the World Arcana?

 

[Shozo_Irie]

The short answer is yes, the Universe Arcana is superior to the World Arcana in terms of feats showed in the games.

But if you want a more detalied answer I suggest you to open a new thread. The Wild Card, from which the World and Universe Arcana derived is not a weapon or a object, as a lot of people think. The Wild Card is a skill that the protagonists develop during the time of the games. Their ultimate form, Universe or World help them to achive their final objective in a way very similiar to a Deus Ex Machina. Do you need to "KILL" an inmortal enemy. check. Do you need to seal an enemy because she is innocent killing her would mean the end of humanity as we know it. check.

 

[Sieghart.chaser]

I agree. Universe has stated by Igor to be a new beginning or the ultimate end. And the World and Universe maybe has the same meaning as peak of arcana due too bond. But Izanami has proved to be weaker by wide margin than Nyx. The world arcana is not susficient to defeat Nyx. You can't defeat the Death it self because Death is universal aspect that exist even in age of gods. without it, everyone will become immortal and become total chaos to both human and supernatural being. This could probably why Minato never want a power kill her but to seal her.

Minato has a power to defeat the impossible. While i know Tatsuya suou from persona 2 have better feat than minato and manage to defeat Nyarlathotep who proved to be superior than Nyx. ITs because Tatsuya have direct blessing with Philemon.

The world never stated to be so special like universe arcana since igor has seen it 2 times before and treat it as normal for those who attain peak form of arcana. But Minato is special because he is the only one who is not kill his last boss (Correct me if I'm wrong). but sacrifice him self to create miracle and thus creating anomaly arcana from different tarot deck. In persona they have different meaning.

But there is no persona of the universe arcana. why is that? because universe arcana is Minato himself. he has trascending to gain higher form and able to perform great seals. If there is such persona of the universe arcana. it would be Chaos or Azathoth since they are the creator of universe.

This is just my speculation though. Feel free to give your opinion.

 

[Szutjo]

There are many entities of different mythologies around the world that can be classified as Universe Arcana. The Greek Chaos, The Shinto Amenominakanushi the first of the creator kami, The Egyptian Ogdoad (Primordial Deities), Ra himself is also supreme enough to be consider Universe Arcana, The Hindu Brahman (not Brahma) is also considered the highest among Hindu mythology to the point that the Trimurti are but his avatar and he himself is the multiverse Brahman.

That'll be enough trivia. To the main point, if we reached conclusion can someone do the magic on the protagonist profile page?

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody summarise the conclusions here?

Also, please do not quote each other back and forth, as it clutters the page, and makes it harder to read.

 

[Shozo_Irie]

-Minato and the others wild card users (Aigis, Yuu,...) gets more or less powerful (strenght, speed and durability) depending which Persona are using in this precise moment. As an reference you can compare the stats of Slime vs Messiah

-Minato and the other wild card users gets differents powers, resistances and weakness depending which Persona are using in this precise moment

-Hama and Mudo are... complicated. In the game and the guides are described as Insta-kill attacks, but the developers of Persona didn't represent them very well in the game

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So what do you wish to change in the profiles?

 

[Szutjo]

I believe this will be enough.


"The Great Seal: Uses his lifeforce to generate a barrier to prevent Erebus from calling Nyx to cause Apocalypse. He can survive for an extended time after using it by will power.

Persona: A manifestation of one's psyche in the form of a powerful guardian spirit. They are typically summoned via the usage of an Evoker (a gun-shaped prop) that is meant to emulate the lethal circumstances when Personae usually manifest. As he possesses the Wild Card, he has over 180 personae as opposed to the most users having 1. Each persona grant him different stats (which affect attack potency, speed, striking strength and durability), different skills (Magic attack, Physical attack, buff and debuff spells, recovery spells, passive abilities), different resistance or weakness to certain attacks.

• Physical Attack: His persona materializes and attack the enemies. In order to distinguish this with his attack, his persona physical attack will be called physical attack while his physical attack (shoot arrow, strike, chop, slash, punch) will be called normal attack.
  • Vorpal Blade: Cover the entire area with slash. Deal greater damage when he is in great conditio
  • Akasha Arts: Strike the ground, release 2 dark crimson shockwaves that damage enemies
  • God's Hand: Materialize a giant hand that strike down at the enemy.
  • Primal Force: Compress energy into a sphere then detonate. Energy released will pierce the enemy.
  • Praylaya: Cause a burst of energy that pierce all enemies around.
• Magic Attack
• Elemental spells
  • Niflheim: Single target ice spell that freezes the enemy along with water vapor in the air, creates effect that look like the enemy is confined inside a tower made of blocks of ice.
  • Ragnarok: Single target Fire spell that creates a pillar of fire to burn the enemy.
  • Thunder Reign: Single target Electric spell that creates a growing sphere of energy that explodes in a thunderous explosion.
  • Panta Rhei: Single target Wind spell that creates a small Tornado.
  • Maralagidyne: Multiple target Fire spell that attack enemies with small green explosion.
• Insta-Kill spells that use either Light / Dark magic to kill target (probably through mind death)
  • Samsara: Surround enemies with sacred writing made of Holy power. Has an 80% chance of inflicting instant death.
  • Die For Me!: Card soldiers rain down with their spear point downward. Has an 80% chance of inflicting instant death through Dark Magic.
• Almighty Spells:
  • Morning Star: A beam of light blasts the ground, creating a energy explosion that envelop everything with light. Deal severe damage to foes.
  • Megidolaon: Call down 3 orbs of energy that run in circle while falling down. Cause an explosion.
  • Black Viper: Single target spell that attacks enemy with 3 dark crimson orbs of energy from different direction.
• Recovery spell
  • Salvation: Completely heals him and his allies. Cure status ailments
• Buff and Debuff spell
  • Matarukaja: Increase his allies' and his attack power
  • Marakukaja: Increase his allies' and his defense
  • Masukukaja: Increase his allies' and his hit/evasion rate
  • Matarunda: Decrease his enemies' attack power
  • Marakunda: Decrease his enemies' defense
  • Masukunda: Decrease his enemies' hit/evasion rate
  • Makarakarn: Creates a barrier that reflects magical attacks.
  • Tetrakarn: Creates a barrier that reflects physical attacks (his normal attack included).
  • Fire Break: A debuff that nullifies 1 enemy Fire resistance
  • Ice Break: A debuff that nullifies 1 enemy Ice resistance
  • Elec Break: A debuff that nullifies 1 enemy Electric resistance
  • Wind Break: A debuff that nullifies 1 enemy Wind resistance
  • Mind Charge: His next magic attack power is multiplied 250%
  • Power Charge: His next physical attack power is multiplied 250%
• Fusion Spells: He can summon several Personae at once to execute an extremely powerful attack.
  • Candenza: Dual-summons Orpheus and Asparas to heal his and his allies' health by 50% and increase their Evasion.
  • Thunder Call: Summon thunderbolts that ring from the sky.
  • Justice: Dual-summons Angel and Archangel to make an orb of energy fall from the sky. When it touches the ground, it releases a large but soft explosion that halves the HP of all enemies.
  • Jack Brothers: Dual-summons Jack Frost and Pyro Jack to knock down all enemies to their feet. (mid chance)
  • Summer Dream: One of the following happens at random: The Protagonist and his allies are fully healed and have all their magical energy restored, all enemies are fully healed and have all of their magical energy restored, all allies are knocked down to their feet, all enemies are knocked to their feet, everyone is knocked down to their feet, nothing happens.
  • Last Judge: A massive gavel smashes into the ground, deal massive almighty damage to enemy.
  • Ardhanarhi: Breathes out fire stream burn all enemies in sight.
  • Armageddon: By far his strongest attack. A massive explosion of pure energy blasts apart everything, doing an insanely large amount of damage. This attack can kill most bosses in a single hit.
• And numerous Passive skills that can boost his attack or block/repel/absorb/resist his enemies' attack"

 

[Antvasima]

And which profiles should have these abilities listed near the bottom?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Most of the Persona profiles we have are pretty terrible.

 

[Szutjo]

Even though the equipment sectio is still missing, that part that i wrote will fit perfectly fine between these 2 lines "Notable Attacks/Techniques:" and "Key: Fool Arcana | Universe Arcana" of the Persona 3 Protagonist profile page.


Until we have different opinion against the current conclusion i think this update will be ok.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This is a long thread. Are you proposing any AP changes?

 

[Szutjo]

I will propose a change in Attack Potency of Both The Protagonist and Aigis.


Aigis by her feat of defeating Erebus won't be enough to place her Mountain+ level. I believe Mountain Level is more suitable because the Erebus that she defeat is much smaller and weaker compare to the one Elizabeth later fought which she described as "tears down mountains". That is not to mention Aigis do it with the entire team.

I also think that Elizabeth did not become stronger after the event of Persona 3 and she by herself should be enough to handle Erebus quite easily.

To conclude, i suggest that both Aigis and The protagonist AP be changed.

With Aigis from Mountain+ to At least mountain level and the same for The protagonist before he acquire the Universe Arcana.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am pretty sure Aigis could scale to Nyx Avatar since she fought it alongside Makoto.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree with your AP changes, then. Both of them fought against a Final Boss that has a Continental Feat.

 

[Szutjo]

The thing is i don't scale them against the final boss, i scale them against Elizabeth and to me Elizabeth is above Aigis.

 

[Shozo_Irie]

I want to add that Aigis fought against Elizabeth in one vs one match in Persona Arena and although she (Aigis) lost, Elizabeth mentioned that this match was the most exicting thing she has ever done before. And this was some minutes later than her "fight" against Erebus which she defeated in one attack and considered it boring.

With two Continental feats confirmed (Nyx Avatar and Elizabeth) and a likely third one. Margareth and Elizabeth mentioned that Hi-no-Kagutsuchi from Persona Ultimatix was a "threat" to the whole world and Metis defeated alone (it should be noted that Metis is Aigis's prototype) I think it's time for an upgrade for the Persona characters

 

[Szutjo]

So when will the change come?

 

[Omni-everything]

i think ap are fine the powers need to change though

 

[Szutjo]

Pretty much the true purpose of my thread is to ensure the description of his arsenal being displayed accurately. Other thing i don't have much reasoning to make a change.

 

[Szutjo]

I am still waiting for his "Notable Attacks/Techniques:" be changed and still don't know if anyone care to read about this.


Basically, the Ap can stay the way it is until later. I suggest a different thread being made for AP since I only wanted we make a better description in his profile for his arsenal and thing.