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Servant's Average Speed based on Archer (Downgrade)

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Skylietz

Skylietz

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Well, my Kirei's Speed discussion were closed https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1012414

I still have my analysis and opinion. So. I'm continuing on this new discussion

There is no Speed stats on Nasuverse, so Agility = Speed on this universe.

Well, on the Speed page, there are plenty kind of Speeds

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Speed

Attack Speed, Combat Speed, Reaction Speed, Travel Speed, and Flight Speed

Servant's Attack speed: Massively Hypersonic, yes it's possible for the likes of Excalibur Proto's beam / Excaliblast ...and is there any Servant that could evade that thing?? the Servants was only able to counter those things with similar speed of attacks, and need some preparation and distance before be able to counter those things, I can't imagine Lancer / Rider can outrun Excaliblast, and even Bellerophon's speed is only around Subsonic at max (500km/h = 138.8 m/s) http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Belleropho

So MHS for average speed of Servants is overstatement IMHO.

Reaction Speed: Archer's reaction speed (experience based reaction) for avoided Lancer's true speedy attack at close range "Reaction speed is reacting to an attack that you don't know is going to happen, or at a very close range.", .. MHS? I don't think so. The page also specified the mechanics of aim dodging (for example Lancelot's ability to grab weapons from Babylon Gates' attack, and Lancer's Arrow Protection). So I still say this is around Hypersonic+ as high end value for A-rank agility Servants.

Travel Speed: Can most Servants outrun Archer's arrows? and I wanna know the speed calculation of Caladbolg II, where did the 400 Mach came from??, the speed of attack is the same as Archer's regular arrow or Hrunting (Mach 10, Hypersonic+) http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Hrunting , the only difference is the power of the arrow. Only Servants with Command Seal boost that were able to travelled as comparably fast (Saber vs Archer, Hollow Ataraxia)

I still consider Fate Stay Night VN as a strongest basis of Servants stats.

Gilgamesh is kinda slower than most, but his equipments' Speed are top-tier, his average Servant's reaction speed and keeping up some distance from opponents also helped him, so keeping up with faster Servants is normal for him

as for my conclusion on Archer EMIYA:

Attack Speed: Hypersonic+ (Hollow Ataraxia - Hrunting's feat, Mach 10, it is fast enough to eventually overwhelm Saber on the fifth shot after deflecting the first four consecutive shots)

Reaction Speed: Hypersonic, likely Hypersonic+ (barely avoided a close-ranged, serious Lancer's thrust, The True Eye of The Mind: B-rank)

Travel / Movement Speed: Supersonic+, much faster with Command Seal boost (but as for Archer, Subsonic continuous movement speed is still possible, one step above Kirei's travelling speed (without boost) at SuperHuman)
 
You can politely ask Promestein to comment here if you wish.
 
I don't know if it is important enough, but you can inform the people listed in the Knowledgeable Members List (ScarletFirefly, Promestein, KamiYasha, and Ramesses the Sun King) about this thread.
 
@Antvasima

Ok, it's done, I have ask him to comment here :)

@TheJ-ManRequiem

IMHO Gil's reaction speed is good enough for Servant's standard, and it should be easier to dodge than Lancer's serious thrust
 
Did you only inform Promestein, or the others as well?
 
Okay. Preferably ask ScarletFirefly, KamiYasha, and Ramesses the Sun King as well.
 
I strongly disagree with the downgrade.

Why would you only consider F/SN's feats as the only acceptable basis for servant stats? You keep bringing up the 50km/h for some reason and then ignoring the fact that Kirei "fought" True Assassin who kept up with Lancer. If Bellerephon was that slow then Medusa would have no business being able to clash against Excalibur Morgan.

Proto feats place them at mach 200-500, if we use F/SN low end feats like you suggest we would scale Mordred to Artoria to High Hypersonic while Paracelsus would be Mach 200 even though he is a Caster with C-rank agility. Or are you saying we would ignore all feats that aren't from F/SN? Btw Berserker deflected the mach 400 caladbolg.

You need to understand that authors don't really know the scale of their feats. If you look at Apocrypha they treat Shirou Kotomine as a exceptionally fast servant while trying to back it up with 50 km/h sprint statement and then later he is sparring with Achilles who has statements of casually breaking the sound barrier and even has a light speed statement with his chariot.
 
Also you over exaggerate the speed difference between A and C rank. The difference is only about 40% if you accept the Numbers Nasu gave the ranks at face value.
 
TheJ-ManRequiem said:
Gil reacted to Herc.attempting to crush his skull for impaling Illiya, albiet barely.
Click to expand...
That only happens in anime, if I'm thinking what you're thinking.

Gilgamesh's faster than lightning speed is one of the things that serve as basis for MHS Servants.
 
Fate/Apocrypha is a Japanese light novel series in Type-Moon's Fate/stay night franchise, written by Yüichirō Higashide, and yeah even though under supervision of Kinoko Nasu, it was not purely made by him, so I suggest it should be separated from the F/SN counterpart as separate alternate universe, their law of physics and powerscaling are different.

I'm still curious with 400 Mach Caladbolg II, whereas his arrow speed is only 10 Mach at best (it was explained clearly that Saber needed Command Seal boost to reached Archer's sniping point in time --- lower end Hypersonic+)

Travel speed is different than short burst, combat speed, as I mentioned before, even though Kirei is not as fast, his skill and experience are good enough to defensively matched True Assassin.

Bellerophon was not able to outrunned Excaliblast, so they have no choice but to clashed with it, if it was comparably fast, Bellerophon could just avoided the blast (even barely), and charged straight at the user without even need to clash with that huge pillar of light, so Excaliblast is obviously faster than Bellerophon.
 
@Skylietz

Fate/Apocrypha is an alternative timeline to F/SN and it's a parallel world. Nasuverse mechanics makes it very similar to the F/SN timeline/world because if a parallel world is to different(having different physics) it's no longer a parallel world and thus the "world" is purged. So no that's not a valid argument. All Type-Moon works are canon thanks to kaleidoscope and the infinite parallel worlds. Artoria fought Mordred(One of the Sabers in apocrypha) so why would a parallel world Artoria be vastly(understatement of the century) slower than Mordred? Also all nasuverse mechanics are universal laws basically, and you are disregarding it for some reason. Given how you seem to want to treat servants between parallel worlds as entirely different.

Skill wouldn't let someone react to someone literally thousands of times faster than you.
 
IIRC Bellerophon was compared to a white comet which would give it the speed of around mach 30-200+, with the amount of mach 200+ feats the mach 200+ is more consistent. At even the lowest value, it's still vastly faster than the subsonic statement.
 
Yeah, I know the concept of Zelretch's Kaleidoscope, but this is a matter of much different speed-scaling, these Fate series are inconsistent except in same world verses...namely, that F/Z can scale to F/SN and F/HA, but not with the Apocrypha, Extra, GO, etc.

A separate page or sub-page for those separate alternate world character counterparts are better than automatically put MHS on all Servants' pages, all based on "better" feats of Apocrypha / Prototype or anything outside the main series (F/SN), avid readers of the FSN / FHA VN who visited Saber page will be confused with the interpretation.

Mordred vs Artoria as depicted by a different author? I know you guys won't care, but I still do, it still messed up with F/SN scaling significantly.

Bellerophon's main strength lies on its Armor rather than Speed, so I'd stick with low end of comet's speed (High Hypersonic) if you prefer to use comet rather than the statement mentioned.

All of those calculations still mentioned Hypersonic as lower range value, supported with the VN and source materials descriptions, I'm still supporter of Hypersonic+ as Servant's individual battle / short burst speed / reaction speed (not Attack Speed and Command Seal boost speed, as they need to be mentioned separatly IMHO)

10 Mach arrow speed as depicted on the VN is more reliable than that calculation IMHO (btw I can't open the picture he attached on the post, I wonder why, pixel, mountain etc), IIRC, Archer even mentioned his optimal range for accurate sniping is 4 km, where he can see even the small detail and made best possible shot, supported by ufotable animation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfTGkrSSpZA 400 Mach?? No, I'd say 11 Mach (Hypersonic+) to 26 Mach (High Hypersonic) are the possible range of values. Still possible for Berserker's reaction speed to handle (Agility A), as he also have The False Eye of The Mind (talent + experience)
 
I don't have enough time to answer all of this, but I assume others will deal with this.

Now I'm kinda sad we didn't go with FTL Servants. :(
 
Nope, F/SN isn't the "main" series. It's an extended multiverse where everything is canon, doesn't matter if you want to call the others "not canon because different writer". F/SN scales to Apocrypha and GO who scales to Prototype along with the Mach 200+ feats. Artoria and the Knights of Camelot all fight Rider from prototype fragments'(Ozy) sphinxes and he barely reacted to King Hassan who fights Gawain, therefor everyone in GO scales.

No Mordred vs Artoria is exactly the same in all the parallel worlds. Mordred and Arotria fight, before Artoria grabs Rhon and one shots her, therefor they have comparable speed. Achilles is the fastest hero in the throne of heroes making him faster than all the prototype servants, and the Apocrypha cast while much slower would still be in the mach 200+ range.

Doesn't matter if they have a high hypersonic low end when the High-Mid and high End are much more consistent with the other Fate series feats, including the prototype feats.

I disagree, the calc was as close as you can get for Caladbolg's actual speed. Using Anime to prove your point isn't good since there is a massive difference from a visual medium trying to portray feats, just look at how Fate/Zero tries to depict servant fights.
 
See.... You're completely trying to downgrade Fate over a single feat.

Enkidu flew up the planet to chase Gilgamesh at Mach 535 (Might be wrong)

Also, Outrunning Excaliblast has nothing to do with speed, reacting to it is.
 
I strongly disagree with his downgrade.

Servants have been consistently shown to have MHS speeds across multiple works despite what's shown in guides and such. I believe we should stick with the speed that the feat would actually takes instead of just taking what speeds the author gives us when those speeds when actually used in context don't make as much sense.
 
Gargoyle One said:
Or at least, it has the most relevance.....That being only 15% of the Nasuverse.
Click to expand...
From a meta perspective sure it's one of the most relevant, but it's arguably still beaten by Grand Order. In terms of Lore F/SN is nothing special, while Grand Order is the special snowflake with them singularities and rule bending.
 
Yeah, I don't have anything to say here that hasn't already been said.

Servants have feats that are consistently much better than what you're downplaying them to be.
 
"casually breaking a sound barrier." --fastest Servant's feat, which at least Mach 1+ or Supersonic, ..and faster with his chariot, well, vehicle / aircraft (Vimana, empowered F-15 Jet Fighter etc) should be separated with individual travel speed, right? I dunno in case of Enkidu, was he flight to the atmosphere by himself (via True Flight) or with some kind of aircraft like Gilgamesh had?

and btw https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ruler_(Fate/Apocrypha) <-- still at Hypersonic+ / High Hypersonic reaction ... why not MHS? need for revision I suppose, eh

From what I read above, so Travel Speed = Reaction Speed = Attack Speed = Vehicle Speed? if yes, then I have nothing else to say, you can close this thread.
 
Nope, Achilles has multiple better feats, he can cross giant battlefields in a single breath, dodge point blank arrrows from Chiron, which is impressive because Chiron hit one of Achilles' horses that was drawing his supposedly LS chariot. He is also described as so fast he basically has instantaneous movement. Achilles was also fighting against Chiron with his chariot and was controlling it like how Gil controls Vimana. So your point is moot.
 
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