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SCP Dimensionality

Well according to what has been presented there are dimensional levels and then narrative levels, which each narrative layer containing an entire dimensional structure that ranges from 11-C to High 1-B. Since the narratives jump this, one narrative level up from the "primary" narrative would be 1-A, while one narrative level down would be below dimensionality on the 11-C end.
 
@Agnaa

So it stops at 196,884 dimensions? Well, even still it still qualifies as all of dimensionality, since something can go from lacking dimensions outright to having dimensions. If something one narrative level below is below dimensionality, one narrative level above must be above dimensionality, or 1-A.
 
I don't think "below dimensionality" or "above dimensionality" is accurate terminology. It's been interpreted so far as "Qualitatively inferior to 0 dimensions" and "Qualitatively superior to 196,884 (assuming 1-B) or uncountably infinite (assuming High 1-B) dimensions"

Qualitative inferiority seemed to be the textbook definition of 1-A, but when I presented that to experts they said "It's just stacking a bunch of transcendence on top of each other and hoping it sticks."
 
Inferior to literal 0 is below dimensionality itself, not -1-D, which indicates that superior on the same level to any number of dimensions, 1 to infinity, would be above dimensionality itself.
 
I don't think that's how it works. Seeing a 4-D multiverse as fiction doesn't put you above dimensionality. Being seen by a 0-dimensional being as fiction doesn't put you below dimensionality.
 
@Agnaa

It all depends on how the narrative works. Something that treats "fiction" as a dimensional layer behind it obviously wouldn't let you get to 1-A, but if you see "dimensionality" as fiction than you're absolutely over it and hit 1-A. Seeing dimensionality as fiction can be shown by the inclusion of things that are below dimensionality. To them, normal dimensionality would be on the level of "above dimensionality" from that perspective instead of just a layer of dimensional complexity above it.
 
I'm not knowledgeable enough on how the tiering system works to get into the weeds like this, shall we ask other staff members to comment here?
 
Assaltwaffle said:
@Agnaa
Seeing dimensionality as fiction can be shown by the inclusion of things that are below dimensionality. To them, normal dimensionality would be on the level of "above dimensionality" from that perspective instead of just a layer of dimensional complexity above it.
Click to expand...
I don't think this is ever suggested.

Of course, the verse as a whole isn't exactly one consistent cosmology, so maybe someone said some shit like this at some point and I just missed it.
 
The higher narratives do not see the lower ones as literal fiction. They just transcend them to a point where a lower narrative can't really affect them in any significant way.

The Higher Entity, the manifestation of the writer of 3812 itself, can still communicate with them, as seen here:

> "I wrote the laws of your universe, and as such I created the narrative. This isn't the first time I've done this, but it was the first time I tried something like this specifically. I wanted to create something that, by definition, superseded everything that superseded it. I wanted to see how many layers there are, if the stack of narratives really do go on forever upward. The mistake I made was when I didn't realize that by making Him supersede everything that supersedes him, he's also superseding himself"

SCP-3812 can perceive those that transcend its narrative as well. He can even perceive his author:

> SCP-3812: Our ascendence is just as much a part of our own narrative as his decision was to him. Someday, we'll be free from these restrictions. SCP-3812: They never will?

> SCP-3812: No.

> SCP-3812: That's sad. (Pauses) That is punishment enough, I think.

> SCP-3812: Let go of this world. Let him rewrite it back to what it was. We aren't part of this anymore.

> SCP-3812: Together?

> SCP-3812: Together.

> SCP-3812: Do you think he's listening right now?

> SCP-3812: Look down, and you can see him. What do you think?

> SCP-3812: I see him. A man at a keyboard. He's watching this right now.

So no, it's definitely not 1-A in any shape.
 
Not sure why I was summoned. Sure I argued against it back then but I'm far from an authority on the subject.

But yeah. That's just Composite Hierarchy. Each layers have a certain number of dimensions, but that doesn't mean that layers above transcend the very concept of dimensions or dimensionality itself. If you transcend a layer of existence with 54 D people you just transcend the 54th Dimension, not dimensions themselves.
 
I see. Thanks for the insight, Kep. What is your idea about 2747 and his odd position, then?
 
Higher narratives do see lower ones as fiction. 2747 destroys lower narratives that we see as fictional, 1304 is ritual murder that occurs in lower narrative that we see as fiction and transfers them to a higher narrative, there's departments like the Pataphysics department, a fictional department that contains narrative anomalies.

EDIT: Devices such as SCP-2614 are also discussed as demonstrations of the verse being made of layers of metafictional narratives, 2614 being a copy of the sopranos which lets you move the camera around the universe of that show's fifth season.
 
Except lower narratives still exist in the perception of higher ones. They can communicate, so they absolutely must exist to each other. Likewise, 1304 is the proof that narratives are just stacked layers that transcend each other the farther you ascend. That still fits the description we're given.
 
They exist in the same way that SCP exists to us. It's a thing that's there, but it's fiction. They're stacked layers that transcend each other, but they transcend each other with a reality-fiction difference.

Also in case you missed it, I edited my last message to also mention 2614.
 
We're actually doing this?

We're actually doing this.

I agree with Kep, however.
 
I agree with Kep on it not being 1-A, but I'd point out that narratives do seem to literally see lower ones as fiction.
 
Not really. Characters who know about the structure of the multiverse can perceive and communicate with higher narratives, when they wouldn't be even able to comprehend those within higher narratives were they transcended to a fictional level. That tells us it isn't a reality fiction difference right away. Narratives are universe that contain your average Foundation multiverse inside them, with each one transcending the previous one completely as the list goes up - but with the lower ones still existing relative to the higher ones.
 
Not to mention that the word "Narrative" is massively inconsistent even with extended canon, as the same author of 3812 defined them as alternate universes in another story.
 
Why does communicating with something that sees you as fiction mean that it doesn't actually see you as fiction? I'm pretty sure most reality-fiction differences involve the fiction being able to communicate to the reality.

@Dargoo That's not "massively inconsistent" that's "One author used it wrong in one of their stories", every other use of it is incredibly consistent.
 
Agnaa said:
@Dargoo That's not "massively inconsistent" that's "One author used it wrong in one of their stories", every other use of it is incredibly consistent.
Click to expand...
Considering we use the same author to justify "Narratives are higher dimensions", yes, it's incredibly inconsistent.

Should I mention how Narratives are just treated as being able to alter text in other scips?
 
We also use other authors and SCPs to justify "Narratives are higher dimensions".

What do you mean by "just being able to alter text"? Altering text is a side-effect of lower narratives being changed, and these narratives being changed propagate across all instances of that text in higher narratives.
 
Such as?

The concept of "lower dimensions are associated with narratives" is based on scips that stuff like Fred aren't related to. Otherwise you can't prove the association for those scps, unless you'd like to take a whack at proving it outside of assumptions based on completely different authors.

There's also plenty of SCPs that use the word narrative and are just called text-based, such as that one that inhabits compoter data and turns text into shitposts.
 
It refers to reality as being constructed of layers of metafictional narrative. SCP-1304 is the ritual murder of fictional characters within stories which cause the birth of someone in a higher narrative whose life follows that fictional character's written life as closely as possible.

This demonstrates that these layers of narrative have a reality-fiction difference between them. SCP-2614 is the same sort of thing, being an anomalous copy of the Sopranos' fifth season that lets you control the camera.

It talks about "layers of metafictional narrative" and then links to two SCPs which involve manipulating fiction.

EDIT: Also, that footnote is placed after this section of the article:

It can effect through layers of metafictional narrative, i.e. a metanarrative containing the anafabula will cease to exist within the narrative, followed by the narrative itself disappearing from our reality.
This is about 2747 affecting fictional texts and working its way up that narrative hierarchy to affect reality.
 
So we have one example of this, and then another example which is invalidated due to Death of the Author.

Anything else you can think of?
 
Which example was invalidated due to Death of the Author?

Anyway, there's also from SCP-3143's email

It might not have worked, but this was nevertheless an excellent test-run for 'Dr. Thaum' and the 'Pataphysics Department'. I recommend we keep them on the books — they might come in handy, particularly in regards to developing allegorical and metafictional countermeasures. Besides, it's not like a fictitious department with fictitious employees has a costly upkeep.
This defines the Pataphysics Department as a fictional department used to counter narrative anomalies, such as 3143 itself.

Then later, in Never Metafictional Character I Didn't Like, Thaddeus Thaum says

"That's — a little ambitious. I mean — I'm not even fictional. I'm less than that. I'm a story written by a story."
And SCP-2747 is brought up as a way of being able to kill stories.
 
Can someone give me a tl;dr summary of the 1-A SCP argument (including what makes it inconsistent), I might be able to help.
 
The 1-A argument went from here to here.

I think the idea was something along the lines of "Since higher narratives see lower narratives as fictional, lower narratives are below dimensional relative to higher narratives, so higher narratives should be above dimensional relative to lower narratives".

Assaltwaffle said:
@Agnaa

It all depends on how the narrative works. Something that treats "fiction" as a dimensional layer behind it obviously wouldn't let you get to 1-A, but if you see "dimensionality" as fiction than you're absolutely over it and hit 1-A. Seeing dimensionality as fiction can be shown by the inclusion of things that are below dimensionality. To them, normal dimensionality would be on the level of "above dimensionality" from that perspective instead of just a layer of dimensional complexity above it.
Click to expand...
For reference, SCP's cosmology is constructed of a composite hierarchy of layers. A so called "narrative sandwich", where each narrative creates the one below it and sees those below it as fictional. The main narrative is at least 196,884-dimensional, and other narratives might be as well (I'm not familiar with the evidence for the latter bit but I've heard it argued both ways).
 
So is the 1-A(s) in question beyond all narratives?
 
In this thread, the 1-A in question would be above the "main narrative" as I dub it, where most of the writing on the SCP wiki happens.

The argument being that since being below narratives makes you below dimensional, being above narratives should make you above dimensional.

The "1-A via being above the narrative hierarchy completely" was rejected since the size of the narrative hierarchy is unknown. It could be finite, countless, or infinite, but we're not sure.
 
I see. Well, while we don't need infinite narratives to reach 1-A, simply being above/seeing 196,884-dimensional thingy as fiction isn't enough. That is, unless transcendence of physics, dimensions, space, and time are explicitly stated in detail.
 
That's what I thought but I can't accurately represent Assalt's argument otherwise.
 
I believe the main crux of the problem right now is that we're trying to make the word "Narrative" an umbrella term for all SCPs when each author probably views it differently in each case.

I feel that we should approach this on a case by case basis.
 
You guys are acting like the term "narrative" is super inconsistent because you found a single example from one author where it was "used incorrectly".

And even there, we didn't consider it to be a narrative because it was vague and would have made that SCP absurdly powerful. Not because it said anything directly contradictory.

There's a tag filled with dozens of SCPs by many authors that use narratives consistently.
 
The thing is, in some skips, "Narrative" could mean story. In others it means dimensions. If we were to create a singular term for the word, it messes up scaling and context. I won't deny that some SCPs like 3812 ascends dimensions. The problem stems from the fact that the way Kaktus' Proposal functions is that it destroys a "Narrative" and describes it as a "different reality".

Kaktus' Proposal even states that the "Narrative" is the reason there are anomalus phenomona in the main SCP universe. So youre telling me that not only is Kaktus' Proposal capable of destroying entire geometrical dimesnions, but that one of those dimensions bleed anomalies into the main SCP universe?

You must admit, that's pretty upsurd.
 
Theoretically they could misuse it. Practically you've shown me a single example that is admittedly contradictory due to the much more frequent uses of "universe" and "multiverse" throughout the article.

Kaktus's proposal is absurd because it makes the top tiers of the verse High 1-B over statements that could vaguely be taken either way. Either it misuses "narrative" and the verse is 1-B, or it misuses "universe" and the verse reaches up to High 1-B and 1-A.

You could take a narrative interpretation that stays consistent with the verse, but that ignores the more common mentions of "universe" and "multiverse" in the article, and it also seriously inflates the verse to High 1-B and 1-A.

Also, narratives intersecting isn't a new concept. SCP-3812 was thought to be at risk of merging lower narratives together, and some of the meta fiction (maybe just the non-canon operation over meta) talks about narrative planes intersecting.

For posterity, this discussion about Kaktus' second proposal started here.
 
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