Sans vs Kirby

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Kirby is strong as ****. quite strong. Over the years killing more and more people. swallowing them hole to gain their powers. sending them into an endless void for eternety (if you didn't know kirby's "stmoach" is just a portal to another world). I'd say Karma retribution would be a huge factor in this fight. the winning factor.
meaning sans will have his full multiverse level attack potency, compared to multi solar system durability kirby has.

Winner, qutie easily sans.

Pretty much. Chara really didn't kill that much compared to kirby. People forget that undertale is a ~4 hour long game and even spending a whole run killing people is nothing compred to the casual platforming kills of a ~40 hour game or whatever the kirby games are on average, let alone combined across all the kirby games.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Kirby is strong as ****. quite strong. Over the years killing more and more people. swallowing them hole to gain their powers. sending them into an endless void for eternety (if you didn't know kirby's "stmoach" is just a portal to another world). I'd say Karma retribution would be a huge factor in this fight. the winning factor.
meaning sans will have his full multiverse level attack potency, compared to multi solar system durability kirby has.

Winner, qutie easily sans.

Pretty much. Chara really didn't kill that much compared to kirby. People forget that undertale is a ~4 hour long game and even spending a whole run killing people is nothing compred to the casual platforming kills of a ~40 hour game or whatever the kirby games are on average, let alone combined across all the kirby games.

Ontop of that. enemies kirby doens't just kill with a power meet an even worse fate. a likly slow death in the endless void his stomach is a portal to. And those he spits out turn into stars and die as projectile weapons. If you think of it. Kirby is a worse genocidal freak than chara

He even caused a war between the sun and moon (which he fixed but still caused in the first place)

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Kirby is strong as ****. quite strong. Over the years killing more and more people. swallowing them hole to gain their powers. sending them into an endless void for eternety (if you didn't know kirby's "stmoach" is just a portal to another world). I'd say Karma retribution would be a huge factor in this fight. the winning factor.
meaning sans will have his full multiverse level attack potency, compared to multi solar system durability kirby has.

Winner, qutie easily sans.

Sans isn't Multiversal tho...

I think Sans wins this, but it's not as big of a stomp as you're saying it is. In fact, all Kirby needs to do is land the Time Beam on Sans and he's screwed.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Kirby is strong as ****. quite strong. Over the years killing more and more people. swallowing them hole to gain their powers. sending them into an endless void for eternety (if you didn't know kirby's "stmoach" is just a portal to another world). I'd say Karma retribution would be a huge factor in this fight. the winning factor.
meaning sans will have his full multiverse level attack potency, compared to multi solar system durability kirby has.

Winner, qutie easily sans.

Sans isn't Multiversal tho...
I think Sans wins this, but it's not as big of a stomp as you're saying it is. In fact, all Kirby needs to do is land the Time Beam on Sans and he's screwed.

His ap is multiversal against creatures who have killed at least a moderate amount.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Hax is hax. It does not at all contribute to his AP, nor is it measured by the AP scale in any way.

There's a reason he isn't Multiversal in his profile.

 

[Ryukama]

What Arbitrary said. Hax by definition ignores statistics. So you cannot scale hax into stats.

Sans can only harm Multiversals due to his hax. If a far lesser character has a resistance to the types of powers Sans uses, they could tank his attacks, regardless of dura or AP.

Sans does not have a set/guarenteed Multiversal AP against those vulnerable to his hax.

If someone has planet level dura, they're not going to get one-shot by Sans's hax cause it works on Multiversals. They're going to get harmed due to it ignoring durability all together. If a City level is only slightly vulnerable to Sans power yet has a massive resistance against it, they will withstand the attacks even better than Multiversals with complete vulnerability will.

That's just how hax works.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Kirby is strong as ****. quite strong. Over the years killing more and more people. swallowing them hole to gain their powers. sending them into an endless void for eternety (if you didn't know kirby's "stmoach" is just a portal to another world). I'd say Karma retribution would be a huge factor in this fight. the winning factor.
meaning sans will have his full multiverse level attack potency, compared to multi solar system durability kirby has.

Winner, qutie easily sans.

Sans isn't Multiversal tho...
I think Sans wins this, but it's not as big of a stomp as you're saying it is. In fact, all Kirby needs to do is land the Time Beam on Sans and he's screwed.

His ap is multiversal against creatures who have killed at least a moderate amount.

Sans is multiunversal by feats however he isn't actaully multi universal. he just has durability ignoring hax strong enough for opponents of that power. In the pont of kirby. he can't coutner his Sans' hax to ignore durability. hes garunteed to be hit by KR and sans while still unknown potentailly wins in speed stat as well.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I'd give it to Kirby via the Time Beam, as Time Manipulation > Spatial Manipulation. It would easily stop Sans from moving, providing Kirby with plenty of time to land the blow. He's bound to pull it out eventually; the question is if he will decide to use it before it's too late.

Otherwise, Sans wins.

That being said, I think the KR would definitely be present, but I don't think it would be nearly as devastating as people claim it to be. While KR was meant as a slap in the face to those who grind off enemies, this is assuming that Kirby's canonically done that. Just because the enemies are there doesn't mean Kirby's only option is to plow though them; that isn't the case with the Genocide route, as every single kill is canon to said route, and actually affects the game. Besides, "Grinding" isn't exactly a thing in Kirby games.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Speed is equalized, Typhlosion.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah, there's no way Sans wins in the speed category. Even if it weren't unknown.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Then Sans would win any how. Durability ignoring hax. presens of KR. a nack for dodging. teleporting abilities. and feats that has his potentail, potentaillly quite above that of kirby.

 

[Ricsi0309]

On chara killed 150 monsters and got 20 hp KR per second Kirby killed that amaunt in tree stages whit ease Also he wont be able to get to use time beam as a multiversal creature were killed in a few seconds As last kirby is at leas levle 100 being good whit him so one seco d blow puts kirby at close death situation

 

[ZSmileKidz]

dudes,why?

Kirby wins easy

speed:Kirby can use warpstar that could travel the entire galaxy in few seconds

strenght:Kirby strenght is enough to destroy earth,sans strenght is unknow

resistence: Kirby survived a planet sized explosion,Sans died with one hit of chara,who has lv 19-20 only by killing 150 monsters,Kirby killed more than 300

intelligence:Equaled (has i know)

Sans can teleport,but, not in a fight (as seens in genocide rout)

We dont know if Kirby is affected by KR

We can assume that kirby has more Love than Chara because killing gives exp, and exp givel Love

 

[Talonmask]

dudes,why?

Kirby wins easy

speed:Kirby can use warpstar that could travel the entire galaxy in few seconds

strenght:Kirby strenght is enough to destroy earth,sans strenght is unknow

resistence: Kirby survived a planet sized explosion,Sans died with one hit of chara,who has lv 19-20 only by killing 150 monsters,Kirby killed more than 300

intelligence:Equaled (has i know)

Sans can teleport,but, not in a fight (as seens in genocide rout)

We dont know if Kirby is affected by KR

We can assume that kirby has more Love than Chara because killing gives exp, and exp givel Love

Speed is equalized.

Sans doesn't focus on physical strength.

Resisting a planet-sized explosion is irrelevant, Sans' attacks bypass durability. Mentioning the fact that Kirby killed more isn't helping his case.

How is intelligence equalized here?

That doesn't make sense.

Kirby has killed, it likely will.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

The KR would definitely be present, but I don't think it won't be all that devastating. Just because the enemies are there doesn't automatically mean that Kirby's only solution was to plow through them. Aren't they just gameplay filler, anyways? It's not like every single kill in Kirby contributes to the story, like in the Genocide Route.

 

[SirBrownBear]

Given the fact that San's will go down to a harsh gust of wind, all Kirby needs to do is run him down with his warpstar, and given it's speed, San's can't warp out of the way (I say warp because he has no feats of manuverability aside from casually stepping to the side when a small child takes a swipe at him.)

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Speed is equalized. It doesn't matter if Kirby has the WS or not.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Given the fact that San's will go down to a harsh gust of wind, all Kirby needs to do is run him down with his warpstar, and given it's speed, San's can't warp out of the way (I say warp because he has no feats of manuverability aside from casually stepping to the side when a small child takes a swipe at him.)

Speed is equalized. so sans dodging it would not be out of the question.

and aside that. he can teleport. so he doesn't have to move to the side. just teleport away and shoot a GB (gaster blaster) as kirby passes.

 

[LegendaryHero1023]

IMO, Kirby will probably win Round 1, and definitely wins Round 2. This is because the skills of the two fighters counter their respective weaknesses, leading to a virtual stalemate until one of the tires out. As Sans has shown a lack of stamina in the past, he is put at a disadvantage unless he kills Kirby quickly. Power- Kirby is certainly strong enough to knock out Sans with only one or two clean hits. While Sans attacks won't do much physical damage to Kirby, KR makes up the difference. Thus, as far as it concerns their ability to take out their opponent, they are fairly equal in the power department.

Defense- We already know that Kirby is physically tough, but his soul is another matter. The closest I've seen to Kirby's soul is the Heroic Heart that appears in Mass Attack. It is able to manifest itself physically, retains its sentience, and can act independently of his body. Thus, it is likely on par with a human soul from Undertale. While KR will still damage it, Kirby also has lots of healing items in his stomach dimension, which counters this weakness. Sans doesn't have as much defense, and can likely take only a couple of strong hits from Kirby, but his time hax and speed make this weakness irrelevant. Once again, their defenses are fairly equal.

Strategic Advantage- Kirby may be young, but he is smart. If he can survive Sans attacks a few times (and as shown above, this is likely the case), he can begin to predict and avoid them, especially with his fast reaction time. In addition, Sans' arsenal is very limited (bones, Blue soul control, Gaster blaster), meaning Kirby can quickly identify his moves. And Sans' time hax and warping are only a small step up from the teleport spam of most final bosses Kirby has already faced, meaning he can easily adjust. Sans, while physically weaker, has superior control over the battlefield, and is almost impossible to hit. He can easily keep Kirby out of striking range with Blue mode and teleporting, while spamming his own attacks. Plus, Sans tends to open with his stronger attacks, a tactic Kirby won't be expecting. This can lead to him quickly exhausting himself if it fails. Also worth noting is that, while Kirby's speed would normally match Sans time hax, speed has been equalized, giving Sans an advantage here.

In short, Kirby's healing, speed, and intelligence make up for his weakness to KR and counter Sans' attack spam. Sans spatial control, Karmic Retribution, and unique strategy counter Kirby's superior strength and durability. The two will reach a stalemate until one manages to wear the other out. Eventually, Sans' poor stamina will lead to his defeat- made even worse by the fact that Kirby will be pulling out his strongest attacks at this point.

In fact, Sans best chance to win is tricking Kirby into "getting dunked on"- Kirby has proved gullible in the past, and is quick to forgive his enemies (such as Dedede or Magolor). However, once Kirby sets his mind to defeating a foe, he is difficult to dissuade, This is the reason why this doesn't guarantee victory- in Round 1, by the time he resorts to this trick, Kirby will likely not be open to the suggestion. In Round 2, Kirby is bloodlusted, and will certainly not go for it.

 

[Typhlosion130]

There are a lot of things wrong there. for a start. kirby can manifest his soul and move it around but what in the world would make you think it would match up to frisk or chara in streanth or speed or any thing?

Kirby has no defences against Sans's attack on the soul. speed is equalized so you cana't say kirby wins in speed. and given sans options of teleporting and certian other warping his speed is technically higher with the equalized simply due to utilities. So even if kirby addapts sans has plenty of attacks to use. Sans may seem predticable but remember... when you fight him as chara... you gennearlly die several times and continue to learn his attack pattern.. you can't do that with kirby. No prior knoladge. no redo with previous knoladge. just 2 individgual rounds.

Lastly. Given kirbys Durability rating. compared to what Sans killed with KR on an enemy that pales in comparison to kirby's death count. the KR that kirby will be inflicted... is well at least going to be just as bad but more likly its going to be thousands of times worse damaging to kirby with no real defence against it.

And remember. Sans has gravity manipulation powers that manipulate how kirby's SOUL moves even. so thats another factor to add.

All and all sans is a lot stronger than you've given him credit for and a lot less predictable than you may think given a 1 chance fight with no knoladge. (like chara would have after some deaths) And with the AP sans is bound to have

this has to go to sans either way. And if we're going blood lusted on round 2. then uh... just have sans use all his strongest attacks at once. instant win. Remember no prior knoladge or death rules like Chara has. His first attack plus his pre final attack just instantly would be more than enough to defeat kirby given a blood lust round.

 

[LegendaryHero1023]

Typhlosion130 You've made some good arguments, let me respond to them in order.

First, I wasn't claiming Kirby's soul would match up to Frisk or Chara- they both have strong souls compared even to other humans. However, there is no reason to think Kirby's soul would be weaker than a humans since it exhibits the same properties; in particular, it doesn't instantly disintegrate when exposed. Directly responding to the argument, the speed of the soul doesn't really matter since speed is equalized. I'm unsure what you mean by strength- I presume you mean either attack power (which is irrelevant, since Kirby can deal enough damage physically) or durability/HP (which I address further down).

I agree that Kirby has no special defense for his soul. Even if he did, KR would simply bypass it. The point is that even taking damage from KR won't kill Kirby before he is able to heal it back- remember, KR acts more like a poison than normal damage.

I also agree that Sans has the advantage in speed (I said as much in my first post), but Kirby's speed is still an asset in avoiding attacks. Note that Sans speed is faster than light on his page. Paired with Kirby's FTL reaction time, Kirby will not be easy to hit. Sans' higher speed also is not as much of an asset, since he doesn't use melee attacks. It is already assumed that Kirby won't be able to hit him until he is tired, anyway.

Next, I understand that Kirby has only one shot to win, while Chara/Frisk had infinite tries. However, Kirby also has advantages they did not-

• High HP- Earlier, I mentioned Kirby's HP. Using Undertale as a source, a soul's HP is determined by its LV, which is in turn determined by the number of victims killed. To quote it directly, "[LOVE, too, is an acronym. It stands for "Level of Violence." A way of measuring someone's capacity to hurt. The more you kill, the easier it becomes to distance yourself. The more you distance yourself, the less you will hurt. The more easily you can bring yourself to hurt others.]" This is supported by the game's mechanics- HP increases with LV. KR is also determined by how many he's killed. Thus, HP and KR will be roughly proportional- while KR may be thousands of times worse, his soul's HP will be thousands of times more. This is important because KR acts over time (like poison), so having more HP means more time to heal. Thus, having killed more actually gives Kirby an advantage.
• Healing- Kirby has the ability to heal while Sans is attacking, which Chara could not. With an infinite stomach dimension, Kirby should have lots of food at his disposal; but even if we limit him to 5 Maxim Tomatoes (the highest amount he can carry in Squeak Squad), that still allows him to come back from near defeat five times.
• Abilities- Kirby can use abilities to counter Sans' projectiles, which Chara could not do. He can, to name a few, inhale them, block them with Parasol, freeze them with Ice, reflect them with Mirror, grab them with Whip, counter them with Ninja or ESP, or just knock them away with Super Abilities.

Combined, these three factors increase Kirby's chances of survival, and give him more time to avoid or counter Sans' moves.

While gravity does make it easier for Sans to set up his attacks, it can still be countered with Kirby's Warpstar, or other flight abilities like Jet or Hi-Jump. For the reasons above, Kirby can still survive the attacks and adjust his strategy.

Lastly, while a bloodlusted Sans will open with his strongest attack, this is not that different from his normal battle strategy. I would argue that Sans was essentially bloodlusted in his fight against Chara- they were going to destroy all of existence, after all. Plus, this strategy would just exhaust Sans faster, leaving him open to Kirby's attacks- many of which also have time altering qualities (specifically Crash, Cook, Ultra Sword, and Monster Flame). Kirby will probably resort to these power moves sooner when bloodlusted.

Keep in mind, all this isn't even taking Kirby's copy ability into account- if Kirby gets Sans powers from his projectiles or using Scan, it can quickly turn the tide.

In short, Kirby has the tools to survive KR, which will give him time to adjust to and eventually counter Sans' attack spam. Then its only a matter of time until Sans either tires out or tries to trick Kirby.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

@Typhlosion

Sans is practically bloodlusted by default in these matches if we're even going to assume he'll use the Gaster Blasters or any of that to begin with. Anybody who knows Sans knows it's impossible to use him in one of these matches unless he's bloodlusted; he doesn't care about anything and flat out refuses to try, because he knows the world's going to be reset regardless, happy ending or not.

But that's not important.

Since we're going to assume Sans would automatically think throw out all of his strongest attacks at once, despite not doing so against Chara while knowing darn well that the Timeline, if not the whole multiverse, was at stake, then Kirby would think to pull out the Time Beam, which is really all he needs to win this fight.

Not to mention Time manipulation > Space Manipulation anyways, especially since Sans only uses it in the form of teleportation.

But even after typing this, I like LH1023's interpretation more.

Although, LH, I feel that I should corrrect you on one minor case;

-Kirby doesn't have time warping abilities aside from the Time Beam. The moves seemingly stopping time are likely either gameplay mechanics, or just there to put emphasis on the attack. I doubt it accounts for any time manipulation.

I also thought I would build on your argument involving the super abilities; since the Ultra Sword and such could break barriers placed by Magolor, who could warp the fabric of space and time into a weapon, he should supposedly be able to bypass some of the game's mechanics, which are constantly depicted as reality in Undertale. Sans' "Special Attack" involves him not doing anything, and leaving the opponent trapped in the box that is the... whatever that thing is called. Kirby would likely be able to eventually break this box, even if we assume Kirby cannot attack Sans while he's attacking because of it, as the Super Abilities supposedly possess anti-reality warping/space-time warping properties (Because it's the only alternative to scaling Kirby to Magolor, which is considered an outlier here).

 

[Typhlosion130]

Fair enough.

yea KR to HP would likly be equal

However while kirby can heal up. there is an important thing to note. teh poision effect stays there after you heal up and deals the damage it would normally with out you doing any thing down to 1 HP. so if half of kirby's bar is to be poisioned and he heals. he's still going to take half of that KR damage.

Lastly once it gets down to one HP thats the only time sans has to really hit.


now with the warp star... Gravity warping is not out of the question. when we see kirby use hte warp star in say the show. it can still be affected by forces. and some times knocking kirby off. who's to say sans can't manipulate gravity and cause kirby to almmost not be able to control due ot all the changing forces during flight? (as well gaster blasters for range attacks on it)

As for copy abilities. this actually doesn't help kirby. Sans has a large array and varity of abilities. but they mostly rely on KR which kirby won't get. and granted the method of how kirby copies we can't say he's going to get all of sans's abilities.


Honestly in the end. sans attacks are simply to cluster **** like and unpredictable that. He will win off them before he tires out most of the time. the damage it deals and how hard it is to deal with it simply gives him the advnatage. plus he'd likly be able to trick kirby into a victory.

Now granted... sans is likly to be one shot we don't know his actual HP. any potentail hit could kill him. which is why its a good thing sans won't get hit. I mean telportatoin speed hax and such. sans won't get hit. UNTIL he runs out of stamina.

So guage kirby's chances of surviing a barrage of all of san's attacks in one go with no prior knoladge of how to defeat them what so ever plus his manipulation of gravity making it hard for kirby to get around and that's what your'e left with.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Just going to add. yes I just said he won't get hit. speed is equalized here. so kirby is essentally an equivialant to chara in terms of enemies. so kirby won't be able to get that hit until sans is tired.

 

[LegendaryHero1023]

@Arbitrary I'll agree with you on the Time Manipulation point. Regardless, these attacks have both range and power, and should work even without time manipulation.

Incidentally, I think that box is called the "bullet box". Not sure if that's an official name though.

@Typhlosion I agree with your point about the KR- Kirby's healing doesn't prevent the damage from being dealt- but that wasn't really my argument. If the damage dealt by KR was inflicted instantly, Kirby wouldn't have time to heal before he was killed. KR just gives him time to heal before the damage fully sets in.

Second, Sans could use gravity to knock Kirby around, and possibly even knock him off the Warpstar; Kirby has lost control of it in the past. However, this is not the case with Kirby's flight abilities. As for Gaster Blasters, they are easy to see coming (they make a distinct sound when summoned), and Kirby won't have that much more trouble avoiding them. If anything, being able to move in 3D space would make his soul harder to hit.

It is also possible that Kirby won't get all of Sans' abilities, but it's not likely. It's possible, for example, he would only get the PSI ability for his trouble. But in most VS matches, its assumed that Kirby would get his opponents abilities. Furthermore, Sans abilities are not that varied, at least where attacks are concerned. It's basically teleportation, gravity, bones, and Gaster Blasters. It is true that KR won't hurt Sans much, but Sans' soul is also not as strong. Plus, being able to match Sans' projectile spam with more projectile spam is still useful.

I wouldn't say Sans attacks are "unpredictable"- he only uses a few attacks, but gets mileage out of them by combining them in different ways. Iv'e already explained why Kirby is unlikely to be tricked by Sans, so I won't repeat myself.

One thing worth noting is that Sans can be hit before exhausting himself- its just very unlikely. Keep in mind that all of Chara's attacks are fairly slow melee attacks. Many of Kirby's strongest abilities are range-of-effect attacks like Paint, Mike, and Cook, which could easily hit Sans (remember, he doesn't know what these attacks do). However, Kirby probably won't use these moves until late in the fight, and by then Sans would be getting tired already. This is more of a factor in Round 2 than 1.

You're final assessment is pretty accurate- the battle has more to do with whether Kirby can survive Sans' barrage of attacks until he tires out. Kirby's high HP, ability to heal, wide variety of defensive abilities, speed, and quick reaction time make this more likely than not.

EDIT: In case it wasn't obvious, I vote for Kirby.

 

[Talonmask]

Sans explicitly states after using his first attack that "he wonders why nobody uses their strongest attacks first", it's not an assumption, it's what he does. So that Time Beam point is invalid.

 

[Typhlosion130]

You are missing a few factors here.

For a start he is able to do soul manipulation in the form of teleporting you (or at least your soul) around to create an attack (or in the final case of it prevent you from beinding the bullet box and making it move over hte fight optoin). yea in a 3d space it is going to be hard to hit kirby but he attacks the soul. which is clearly bound into some pre-defined area and sans is able to move it around to position it for an attack. This is quite a factor and advantage lowering kirby's survival chances.

Secondly. Are we considering the 2nd round a continuation of the fight where they both are more knoldgable or just individgual events? Either way its blood lusted so I'm expecting sans to use his first attack and his last one before his "special attack" (which is a you can't attack thing which may not work for this) which I can't see kirby surviving both back to back like that.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

One thing that is like to point out is that it seems like people are thinking that this will be in Undertale turns, where Kirby attacks, Sans dodges, and then Kirby has to dodge Sans attacks. It's not. It's a one hit kill both rounds, and if Sans or Kirby can't dodge or get out of range, it's over.

 

[Typhlosion130]

One thing that is like to point out is that it seems like people are thinking that this will be in Undertale turns, where Kirby attacks, Sans dodges, and then Kirby has to dodge Sans attacks. It's not. It's a one hit kill both rounds, and if Sans or Kirby can't dodge or get out of range, it's over.

Thats why I said his speciall attack woudln't really work here.

 

[LegendaryHero1023]

@Typhlosion I'm don't agree with you here- at least not completely. It's hard to draw the line between gameplay mechanics and in-universe reality when it comes to Undertale, because they impact the story so significantly. However, I think there's evidence that Soul modes and attacks are related to physical space. For example read this quote from when Undyne activates Green mode "[Look. I gave you a spear to block the bullets with. Do I have to explain this any more clearly?] (she uses this quote if Frisk fails to block her attacks the first two times)." What would seem to be some strange Soul-based technique is really paralleled by physical action. Another example is Purple Mode, with a fight that takes place on Muffet's web- this would obviously restrict movement. Thus, its not irrational to assume that hitting Kirby's Soul will require hitting Kirby- and Kirby, of course, exists in 3D space. I'm not assuming that Round 2 is a continuation of Round 1- they still have no knowledge of each other. Sans using his two best attacks at the outset wouldn't help, for two reasons-

• First, Karmic Retribution takes time to set in, dealing about 1 hit per second. Given that Frisk's max HP is 99, it would take about 1min 30sec for KR alone to kill- the attacks themselves still deal some damage besides KR, slightly reducing the time, but the damage doesn't scale with LV. Kirby's LV, HP, and thus KR are all higher than Frisk's, meaning that it would take much longer. Still plenty of time to heal back the damage before Kirby hits that last 1HP.
• Second, Sans would tire himself out much faster by using this tactic. This is why he doesn't do this when fighting Chara- using more weaker attacks over a long time is more effective than a few strong attacks over a short time when your opponent can reset timelines and try again. Regardless of which strategy he uses, Kirby still has time to heal, and will still outlast him.

 

[Typhlosion130]

KR takes time to set in however hte longer your'e being hit the longer your health drains at its base. you gain hte over time damage faster but there is still a huge ammount of normal damage draining your health away with out that.

A second thinge to note is that sans has a great understanding of whats happening in the time line and such around him.

In chara he had to make the fight more drawn out to make sure he could kill him even after a few deaths.

In kirby's case. he doesn't have too. he can go all out with insane with his strongest attacks. maybe even ones he dind't use on chara because he has mroe energy and can afford a shorter fight.

 

[LegendaryHero1023]

Since it's hard to predict how Sans will approach the fight while bloodlusted, I won't debate which strategy he's more likely to take. Regardless of which he chooses, it won't work. He can try to overwhelm Kirby with lots of attack power early on- if the attacks only did "normal" damage, this would likely work. But KR changes the situation significantly. First, the base damage of each attack stays constant, while KR scales up with LV. While his attacks will deal lots of damage quickly, most of the damage will be KR, which takes time to set in. Once part of Kirby's health bar is "poisoned" with KR (that part of the bar turns pink in the battle), normal damage doesn't affect it. Sans cannot land the killing blow until that damage has run its course and Kirby has 1HP, no matter how much he attacks. So once all of Kirby's health bar is under the effect of KR, more attacks will not damage him. All Kirby has to do is wait until his health is low enough, and then heal. The end result is that Kirby is restored to peak physical condition, knows all of Sans' strongest moves, and Sans has wasted a significant amount of energy without any gain. I've already covered his normal tactics, so I won't say it again here. I don't see how his knowledge of timelines will help him here, since his foe cannot take advantage of them. If by this you mean he can tailor his tactics to his opponent, this still doesn't help his case because he has no knowledge of Kirby or his techniques. Controlling the pace of the battle may increase his chances of success, but ultimately he has no counter for Kirby's healing. It really is only a matter of time. My vote is still for Kirby.

 

[Typhlosion130]

The poision part of KR does take a lot of time to set in.

However as long as his attacks are touching you. they are taking away massive chunks of your health.

the poision effect is secondary but is a huge burden in hte long run. The ammount of damage dealt per second of bone/beam touching is intense here. a single hit from the smaller of the gaster blasters does what? like a third of your health plus hte poision after it? Like either way this goes. if sans gets a good hit on kirby. kirby is dead. I know kirby can heal (tho on the topic of direct soul damage I'm not sure how that would work but lets ignore that) but sans has plenty of ways to ensure large hits for a no knoladge battle.

Now onto the other topic. what I meant by sans tailoring his tactics to his opponent is he'll be able to tell weather or not kirby can manipulate time lines like chara/frisk. which he can't. thus he knows he won't have to use a long term strategy that tires to wear his opponent down after potentially hundreds of attempts to kill sans. SO he doesn't have to tailor his attack patterns to be more wide spread and less energy consuming. that's all I'm saying.


As for kirby's healing, well the poision damage will always be there continuing to grow on kirby's health bar if he continues to just heal and heal. meaning eventaully kirby is just a ticking time bomb after a while.

As well it requries items which Kirby doesn't always have an infinte ammount of. what's the maximum healing kirby can keep at any given time any how?

 

[LegendaryHero1023]

The damage argument is true. Sans' page actually puts a number on it- his bones deal 40HP per second. Not sure about the G. Blasters though. It's worth noting that Gaster Blasters do not take a third of the HP bar- you can check at [this] video. I feel like you haven't refuted my arguments as to why Sans taking a rush-down tactic will not work, probably because I didn't explain very well. This conclusion is based on facts we've agreed on.

• First, Kriby (or rather, his soul) has more HP (because he has taken more lives), and thus has a higher LV.
• Second, that KR damage scales up with LV, while base damage stays the same.
• Third, that KR damage takes a significant amount of time to work.
• Last, that Kirby cannot be defeated until KR has run its full course, leaving him with 1HP.

It is important to note that KR takes a certain amount of damage- it does not continue to damage its victim until the HP is a certain value. Say Kirby has 100HP, and takes 50 damage from KR. If, once Kirby's HP hits 75, he heals back all his HP, it will set to 100. KR will not continue to damage him until his HP is 50- only until his HP is 75 (since 25HP has already been dealt). Kirby is only a ticking time bomb if he somehow forgets to heal, and with so much time to do so that's not likely.

To answer your healing question, he uses food stored in his pocket dimension. Frisk/Chara restores HP by eating food, so it should work here too. Theoretically, he could bring an infinite amount of food, but that hardly makes for a fair discussion. I used the 5 item limit from Squeak Squad, the most he has ever carried in a game to my knowledge. With all 5 being Maxim Tomatoes (able to fully restore all damage), that means Sans would have to fully deplete Kirby's health 6 times (while waiting for KR to deal most of that damage). So it doesn't matter how he chooses to attack- go all in, wait it out, or in between- the same weaknesses apply in the end.

To answer a potential objection, Sans still expends energy while waiting for KR to work, even if he's not attacking. Teleporting and Blue mode both use up his energy, so he can't just keep Kirby away from him.

I'm headed to bed now, so I won't reply anymore until tomorrow. My vote is still with Kirby.

 

[LegendaryHero1023]

In case it helps, I added up the total votes so far:

• Kirby- 14 votes for both rounds
• Sans- 6 votes for both rounds
• 2 votes for a draw (each wins 1 round)

While it seems that Kirby is winning, most of Kirby's supporters either gave one vote based on assumptions that have since been corrected, or dropped in only to vote without defending their position; most of Sans' supporters have stayed on the thread to continue strengthening their arguments. It's probably closer to a draw right now when the arguments themselves are evaluated...

 

[Cohobast]

I don't have much to add and am abstaining from voting on this match just yet but I would like to quickly add that Kirby might not be able to heal from Sans' attacks since they do soul damage. The only reason the player in Undertale was able to heal was because food in the underground nourishes the soul.

 

[Typhlosion130]

I don't have much to add and am abstaining from voting on this match just yet but I would like to quickly add that Kirby might not be able to heal from Sans' attacks since they do soul damage. The only reason the player in Undertale was able to heal was because food in the underground nourishes the soul.

I thought of that too but refrained from using it as a direct point. as kirby's healing has always been pysical Undertale's has always been of hte soul.

Quote, "Monster food instantly turns into pure energy once eaten". instantly healing you when you eat it.

Which adds the argument that since kirby heals instantly too he could heal like that as well.

I would dissagree due to some specifics but the argument would be based on speculation and go no where. so I didn't bring it up.

 

[LegendaryHero1023]

I found a text dump with the entire exchange:

"Isn't human food different from monster food? It does things like "spoil." And when you eat it, it passes all the way through your whole body. Disgusting! I'd love to try it sometime. And I've heard they have things called bathrooms.

To a human, monster food would be very interesting. As soon as you eat it, it converts perfectly into energy.

... that makes me wonder. How do humans do it? Eat during battle...? Ice cream in one hand, sword in the other. That's the way of the monster warrior..."

It never mentions anything about monster food healing the soul, only how it's digested (or rather, how it isn't). It's most likely another deconstruction of common video game tropes- Undertale idoes the same with grinding, completionists, saving and loading, dungeon puzzles, etc. Plus, as Typhlosion mentioned, Kirby's food fits the description for how "monster food" behaves. I thought originally that this was due to Kirby's unique digestive system, but Maxim Tomatoes work on Bandanna Dee in Return to Dreamland, and on every helper in Super Star and Super Star Ultra.

 

[Typhlosion130]

You're right it never does. But the fact it does state that monster warriers would carry it into battle does kinda make it seem like it would heal the soul. and the body. if it affects your character there's no reason it wouldn't affect the monsters in the same way. so I won't rule that out in that situation.

As for kirby. well. HIs food the maximum tomatoe has never been depicted to work on such a level despite instantly healing like that. So we can assume that it heals at least the physical parts of kirby and the crew instantly. due to the foods properites. on a soul level however. this is unknown.

 

[LegendaryHero1023]

I should clarify here that I wasn't arguing that monster food doesn't heal the soul (it obviously does, since it restores HP), but that monster food isn't the only food that can do so. This speculation is supported by the fact that HP can be restored by an item that isn't monster food, or any kind of food- the bandage.

The bandage is originally the armor item Frisk starts out with, but once they remove it, it becomes a consumable item that restores HP. Since they brought it into the Underworld, we know it was made by humans, who probably didn't design it to heal the soul (after all, Frisk didn't even know how Souls worked until Flowey explained it to them). Despite only be applied to their body, it still heals their Soul. Other seemingly mundane healing items include bisicles and unisicles (popsicles), nice cream (ice cream), Butterscotch Pie, Instant Noodles, a quiche, and even Temmie Flakes (which the game admits are just pieces of paper).

It would seem, then, that even if Kirby's food isn't "monster food", it should still heal his Soul, because it heals his body. This is even more probable since, for the few distinctions that are drawn between monster food and human food, Maxim Tomatoes more closely match the former. While I can't prove it conclusively, it is more likely to work than not.