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Sans vs Golden Frieza

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Theglassman12 said:
@ImmortalDread that’s not how durability negation or hax works dude, Frieza has no feats of resisting soul hax nor is he a higher dimensional being, so any and all hax that he doesn’t resist is fair game to use against him, which Sans has thanks to attacking his Soul. Being physically Low 2-C just makes him strong and can oneshot Sans, but Sans can just do the same thing with hax, so this fight boils down to who hits first.
Click to expand...
Ok sorry husband. Seems not NLF if HDE already bypass it.
 
I think sans can actually win if frieza even spends a second not killing sans since sans starts with his strongest attack which is gravity manip into danmaku that basically one shot you (not insant but REALLY REALLY fast)
 
Quantu said:
Does Sans start of with Soul hax? If so, this seems to be a textbook inconclusive.
Click to expand...
sans starts with danmaku and soul hax at the start which he even calls his "strongest attack" he also uses gravity manipulation but not sure if it works here, sans can also teleport frieza into his attacks or teleport his attacks to him and a lot more stuff
 
TheKillerYT said:
sans starts with danmaku and soul hax at the start which he even calls his "strongest attack" he also uses gravity manipulation but not sure if it works here, sans can also teleport frieza into his attacks or teleport his attacks to him and a lot more stuff
Click to expand...
... Funny enough, yes, it would. Unknown LS makes it 100% possible for Sans' TS/Gravity Manip to grab and throw Frieza around.
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
... Funny enough, yes, it would. Unknown LS makes it 100% possible for Sans' TS/Gravity Manip to grab and throw Frieza around.
Click to expand...
That makes this match even better lol, I am not sure if this is accepted but doesnt sans use gravity manip on the souls of enemys? So shouldnt it also negate LS?
 
I would also like to repeat Frieza's speed will drop down to Sans' level... which is surpassed by Sans' vastly superior reflexes + IA, meaning, Sans has a very high chance of dodging Frieza's first moves of just pointing at him and firing a death beam and getting out of the way if he tries H2H (but Sans has no answer to Frieza just unleashing an AoE explosion).

TheKillerYT said:
That makes this match even better lol, I am not sure if this is accepted but doesnt sans use gravity manip on the souls of enemys? So shouldnt it also negate LS?
Click to expand...
Idk.
 
TauanVictor said:
Freeza has teleportation, so no.
Click to expand...
No, that's wrong! Goku is the one who has that. Frieza just has afterimage-faster-than-the-DBZ-eye-can-track stuff. It also doesn't help Sans' first move is to literally slam a person into the ground and rise a crap-ton of soul-hax/dura-ignoring bones to impale people to destroy their soul.
 
So frieaze points at sans and shoots a beam? Can’t sans dodge it with his teleportation or even kill frieaze before he shoots
 
TheKillerYT said:
So frieaze points at sans and shoots a beam? Can’t sans dodge it with his teleportation or even kill frieaze before he shoots
Click to expand...
Yes, and probably yes. After all, while UT' Soul hax doesn't destory the soul instantly, Sans sorta gets around this via the fact that he produces a crap-ton of soul-hax dura-ignoring attacks at one time with poison-like effects to further decrease the time Sans needs to attack a person to destroy a soul being applied with a mere graze of his attacks.
 
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FantaRin_The_First said:
Yes, and probably yes. After all, while UT' Soul hax doesn't destory the soul instantly, Sans sorta gets around this via the fact that he produces a crap-ton of soul-hax dura-ignoring attacks at one time with poison-like effects to further decrease the time Sans needs to attack a person to destroy a soul being applied with a mere graze of his attacks.
Click to expand...
Are you gonna vote for sans?
 
I'm bored so I'll do a post or two. Might respond to replies, might not.

Teleportation
I don't really think this is too relevant. You can argue whether it was speed superiority or not but Freeza was able to easily predict and punish a Yardrat Warrior who's entire moveset revolved around teleportation. You can debate the mechanics of Sans and a Yardrat teleporting but I think the idea is clear that once Freeza realises Sans can teleport he isn't going to have a hard time adapting. Especially not when he can sense Ki (Which Sans should have, given Ki is life force and Sans has a soul).

Soul Hax
As said before in the thread, none of Sans' soul hax can instantly kill. Meanwhile Freeza's Death Beams can instantly kill and are extremely fast. Along with that, shouldn't resistance to Existence Erasure have some weight here? Given Freeza survived his very existence being destroyed? Hakai is even meant to ignore durability and Freeza's Ki can withstand and stop it.

Speed
Freeza's Ki Sense enables him to detect where Sans is at any time and he has feats such as being able to predict Dyspo (who could outspeed SSG and even SSB Goku) despite being much slower in his base form. Along with that his Death Beam can be rapid-fired like a machine gun, giving him an extremely fast attack option.

Freeza has access to tracking ki blasts and even homing blasts with his Grand Death Beam where he can fire up to 10 at a time which relentlessly track even dodging opponents (such as, for example, Sans.) There is also the part where many of Freeza's attacks are explosive. Freeza's simple Death Beam can even blow up a city (Pretty sure this is the movie but the overall point stands, this is the level of explosive power the majority of DB characters can do easily).

Telekinesis
Even if Sans could lift Freeza around because of Unknown LS, nothing about that prevents Freeza from just firing his attacks. Especially given Sans' telekinesis doesn't even seem to do any damage. In the event Freeza found he could do nothing and was enraged he would simply explode like so, the former isn't even him trying. It's just his aura from transforming vaporising a thousand or so people around him.

Also, Freeza has telekinesis and Unknown LS as well so...it's not unreasonable for him to get ticked at Sans and respond with his own telekinesis and unlike Sans' telekinesis, Freeza is going to smash him through a pillar and kill him.

Survival
I'm not so sure how to scale something like KARMA but Sans pretty clearly doesn't have a lot of burst firepower giving Freeza plenty of time to react to Sans dodging and blasting him, given Sans' damage options are all DoT. Meanwhile Freeza needs only one death beam to land, or he smashes him with telekinesis, or he explodes in an AoE or he gets so annoyed he just fires a blast to the ground and nukes the planet (assuming he has no care or interest in selling it).

Endurance
This isn't even a debate. Sans runs out of stamina relatively quickly. Comparatively Freeza could endure fighting Broly for over an hour without losing his Golden form and while I'm too lazy to grab the scan right now, Goku and Gohan were stated to have sparred over 24 hours straight in the HTC in one panel. Granted, one could argue Sans' hax can get to Freeza before Sans runs out of stamina.

I have to ask...how does verse equalisation apply with the SOUL? Because to my understanding the power of the SOUL in Undertale is based off LOVE with Frisk/Chara gaining HP the more LOVE they have. Frisk/Chara killed hundreds (thousands?) of monsters but Freeza has slaughtered billions, maybe trillions. Would that inherently give Freeza a much greater endurance to Sans' attacks? Due to how violent he is, giving him a vastly higher HP pool?
 
"I don't really think this is too relevant. You can argue whether it was speed superiority or not but Freeza was able to easily predict and punish a Yardrat Warrior who's entire moveset revolved around teleportation. You can debate the mechanics of Sans and a Yardrat teleporting but I think the idea is clear that once Freeza realises Sans can teleport he isn't going to have a hard time adapting. Especially not when he can sense Ki (Which Sans should have, given Ki is life force and Sans has a soul)."

Thing is one of them will die before the fight goes for long and he adapts to it. Sans should have a different teleportation because he teleports his attacks and the enemy


"As said before in the thread, none of Sans' soul hax can instantly kill. Meanwhile Freeza's Death Beams can instantly kill and are extremely fast. Along with that, shouldn't resistance to Existence Erasure have some weight here? Given Freeza survived his very existence being destroyed? Hakai is even meant to ignore durability and Freeza's Ki can withstand and stop it."

No one is saying sans will one shot Freeza, sans is being argued to the W because he kills extremely fast. Pretty sure you need soul resistance to survive it not sure if thats the way it works Freeza might stomp even if I think thats not how it works

"Freeza's Ki Sense enables him to detect where Sans is at any time and he has feats such as being able to predict Dyspo (who could outspeed SSG and even SSB Goku) despite being much slower at the time. Along with that his Death Beam can be rapid-fired like a machine gun, giving him an extremely fast attack option."

Speed is equalized freeza wouldn't just use an extremely big machine gun when he senses sans is literally weak as hell

"Freeza has access to tracking ki blasts and even homing blasts with his Grand Death Beam where he can fire up to 10 at a time which relentlessly track even dodging opponents (such as, for example, Sans.) There is also the part where many of Freeza's attacks are explosive. Freeza's simple Death Beam can even blow up a city (Pretty sure this is the movie but the overall point stands, this is the level of explosive power the majority of DB characters can do easily)."

Not the first move so fight will be over before that happens, sans will can teleport out of the explosions since its thought based but yeah if freeza just destroys the entire planet for no reason Ig he can win

"Even if Sans could lift Freeza around because of Unknown LS, nothing about that prevents Freeza from just firing his attacks. Especially given Sans' telekinesis doesn't even seem to do any damage. In the event Freeza found he could do nothing and was enraged he would simply explode like so, the former isn't even him trying. It's just his aura from transforming vaporising a thousand or so people around him."

Sans lifting isn't supposed to damage freeza it is just supposed to make it harder to dodge the insane danmaku and remember sans after slamming down will use all his danmaku at the same time and since freeza has no idea what is going on will be caught surprise

"Also, Freeza has telekinesis and Unknown LS as well so...it's not unreasonable for him to get ticked at Sans and respond with his own telekinesis and unlike Sans' telekinesis, Freeza is going to smash him through a pillar and kill him."

Is that his first move? Will he just use it for no reason or use his other million abilities lol

"I'm not so sure how to scale something like KARMA but Sans pretty clearly doesn't have a lot of burst firepower giving Freeza plenty of time to react to Sans dodging and blasting him, given Sans' damage options are all DoT. Meanwhile Freeza needs only one death beam to land, or he smashes him with telekinesis, or he explodes in an AoE or he gets so annoyed he just fires a blast to the ground and nukes the planet (assuming he has no care or interest in selling it)."

Sans is literally the word of burst firepower he hits you in everyframe and gives poison damage someone like frisk who resist soul manip and has insane durability was getting killed by sans extremely fast and think what it would to do someone without any of that

"This isn't even a debate. Sans runs out of stamina relatively quickly. Comparatively Freeza could endure fighting Broly for over an hour without losing his Golden form and while I'm too lazy to grab the scan right now, Goku and Gohan were stated to have sparred over 24 hours straight in the HTC in one panel. Granted, one could argue Sans' hax can get to Freeza before Sans runs out of stamina. "

Like I said the fight is gonna end extremely fast so this isn't really a factor so basically its just who kills first

"I have to ask...how does verse equalisation apply with the SOUL? Because to my understanding the power of the SOUL in Undertale is based off LOVE with Frisk/Chara gaining HP the more LOVE they have. Frisk/Chara killed hundreds (thousands?) of monsters but Freeza has slaughtered billions, maybe trillions. Would that inherently give Freeza a much greater endurance to Sans' attacks? Due to how violent he is, giving him a vastly higher HP pool?

Thats just fanon and is not accepted even if I agree it makes so much more sense and is just really cool.
 

Thing is one of them will die before the fight goes for long and he adapts to it. Sans should have a different teleportation because he teleports his attacks and the enemy
Teleportation is teleportation, the main difference is that IT has a tell sign (Putting your fingers to your forehead) otherwise Freeza can predict and punish. As for adaptability, I should note for you that was the first time Freeza has ever fought a Yardrat (to our knowledge).

No one is saying sans willl one shot Freeza, sans is being argued to the W because he kills extremely fast.
That's not really an argument. Freeza can also kill 'extremely fast' and KARMA also can't drop your HP below 1, meaning Sans will always need two attacks to land (assuming Freeza doesn't just dodge).

Speed is equalized freeza wouldn't just use an extremely big machine gun when he senses sans is literally weak as hell
He is going to follow up immediately after Sans dodges (he can sense Ki and clearly see that Sans dodged) and then will resume firing, growing more annoyed each time Sans manages to dodge and causing him to be more destructive.

Not the first move so figth will be over before that happens, sans will teleport out of the explosions since its thought based
This seems like headcanon. Can you cite Sans ever doing something like that?

Sans lifting isn't supposed to damage freeza it is just supposed to make it harder to dodge the insane danmaku and remember sans after slamming down will use all his danmaku at the same time and since freeza has no idea what is going on will be caught surprise
Pardon? Why would Freeza be surprised? He's a telekinetic in a world of energy blast spamming aliens (some of which are also telekinetics) and he also knows fighters like Goku who canonically use their power in hidden bursts (like against the Ginyu Force). If anything he's going to react (like he would against any telekinetic projectile spammer in his world) and fight back. And Freeza being lifted around with telekinesis? Yeah, that's going to enrage him very very fast. Especially if that's after Sans dodges his death beam barrage.

Not the first move again
And? Did I argue it was first move? Sans himself is going to have a very hard (if not impossible) time killing Freeza on first move, giving Freeza more of a chance to get pissed and use Telekinesis (or even just a Kiai).

Sans is literally the word of burst firepower he hits you in everyframe and gives poison damage someone like frisk who resist soul manip and has insane durability was getting killed by sans extremely fast and think what it would to do someone without any of that
You are misunderstanding. Burst Damage isn't the same as DoT damage. A lot of the damage coming from Sans here is from the damage over time effects he has, his actual raw damage isn't as high. That is, Sans doesn't do much damage upfront but he does a lot of damage over time.

And if we want to argue durability, how do we go about that? Are we just arguing one hit from Sans instantly kills Freeza? Or would Freeza have '20 hit points' like a Level 1 Frisk? How do you scale this?

Thats just fanon and is not accepted even if I agree it makes so much more sense and is just really cool.
That isn't fanon, that's questioning how these two verses are meant to be equalised. Are UT souls drastically different from DB souls? Why doesn't the logic of UT souls apply to DB souls when we are verse equalised? If being violent inherently makes you harder to kill by monsters in UT, why wouldn't a super evil mass murderer like Freeza inherently be harder to kill with his evil soul?

If you argue Freeza doesn't have ridiculous LOVE giving him greater HP against Sans, then how can Sans interact with Freeza's soul and damage it when Freeza's soul doesn't even function like one in UT?

Equalisation goes both ways.
 
"Teleportation is teleportation, the main difference is that IT has a tell sign (Putting your fingers to your forehead) otherwise Freeza can predict and punish. As for adaptability, I should note for you that was the first time Freeza has ever fought a Yardrat (to our knowledge)."

Teleportation varies. Some characters just teleport themselfs around but some characters use it in a different way and in this case its sans who uses it in a different way also yeah sans doesn't have a sign he can predict


"That's not really an argument. Freeza can also kill 'extremely fast' and KARMA also can't drop your HP below 1, meaning Sans will always need two attacks to land (assuming Freeza doesn't just dodge)."

That is an arguement because if sans can't kill freeza fast then freeza can just use one of his abilities to kill sans or blow him up. Sans kills frisk who has soul resistance and high durability (They take soul attacks as normal attacks) but sans was still able to kill them fast so yeah sans can kill freeza with 2 hits or just a few seconds in a bone.

"He is going to follow up immediately after Sans dodges (he can sense Ki and clearly see that Sans dodged) and then will resume firing, growing more annoyed each time Sans manages to dodge and causing him to be more destructive."

Yeah but sans just slams him down after dodging and danmakus him he can't just dodge them while also attacking sans since sans danmaku is extremely weird and unpredictable

"This seems like headcanon. Can you cite Sans ever doing something like that?"

Which one? You mean thought based thing? He never uses his hands and just teleports which I assume is thought based

"Pardon? Why would Freeza be surprised? He's a telekinetic in a world of energy blast spamming aliens (some of which are also telekinetics) and he also knows fighters like Goku who canonically use their power in hidden bursts (like against the Ginyu Force). If anything he's going to react (like he would against any telekinetic projectile spammer in his world) and fight back. And Freeza being lifted around with telekinesis? Yeah, that's going to enrage him very very fast. Especially if that's after Sans dodges his death beam barrage."

He would be surprised seeing this random skeleton with a weak ass Ki slammed him down and nearly one shotted him with an attack. Yeah he would fight back attack sans a few times nearly hitting sans before getting hit again and dying

"And? Did I argue it was first move? Sans himself is going to have a very hard (if not impossible) time killing Freeza on first move, giving Freeza more of a chance to get pissed and use Telekinesis (or even just a Kiai)."

How will it be impossible? 2 hits is enough to kill freeza and frisk who came back with reset who knows everything about sans can't even dodge, are we assuming he would somehow know sans can't escape telekinesis and not use his other million power

"You are misunderstanding. Burst Damage isn't the same as DoT damage. A lot of the damage coming from Sans here is from the damage over time effects he has, his actual raw damage isn't as high. That is, Sans doesn't do much damage upfront but he does a lot of damage over time."

I was saying its burst damage since sans does the DoT damage EXTREMELY fast this is the reason sans wins most of his matches by killing the opponent extremely fast

"And if we want to argue durability, how do we go about that? Are we just arguing one hit from Sans instantly kills Freeza? Or would Freeza have '20 hit points' like a Level 1 Frisk? How do you scale this?"

For the last time no one is saying sans oneshots. We can't really scale it so its just assumed sans kills people who aren't like frisk extremely fast

"That isn't fanon, that's questioning how these two verses are meant to be equalised. Are UT souls drastically different from DB souls? Why doesn't the logic of UT souls apply to DB souls when we are verse equalised? If being violent inherently makes you harder to kill by monsters in UT, why wouldn't a super evil mass murderer like Freeza inherently be harder to kill with his evil soul?"

Karma is like I said fanon its just KR. I think you also forgot sans was able to destroy chara and frisk who have insane LOVE anyways thats like I said doesn't work and would break every UT match ever

"If you argue Freeza doesn't have ridiculous LOVE giving him greater HP against Sans, then how can Sans interact with Freeza's soul and damage it when Freeza's soul doesn't even function like one in UT?"

Oh my god like I said I don't make the rules bruv its just that way we don't assume characters level up because they have never shown their soul leveling up its most likely only applies to UT but sans bypasses it anyway

"Equalisation goes both ways."

Uhh okay? Go make a crt then
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Thing is one of them will die before the fight goes for long and he adapts to it. Sans should have a different teleportation because he teleports his attacks and the enemy
Teleportation is teleportation, the main difference is that IT has a tell sign (Putting your fingers to your forehead) otherwise Freeza can predict and punish. As for adaptability, I should note for you that was the first time Freeza has ever fought a Yardrat (to our knowledge)
Click to expand...
don't see how this i relevant, the yardrat has an indication for when he will teleport, sans does not, plus with sans just teleporting freeza himself into his attacks, freeza has not shown to be able to adapt quickly to that

CryoTheMayo said:
.No one is saying sans willl one shot Freeza, sans is being argued to the W because he kills extremely fast.
That's not really an argument. Freeza can also kill 'extremely fast' and KARMA also can't drop your HP below 1, meaning Sans will always need two attacks to land (assuming Freeza doesn't just dodge).
Click to expand...
yeah, sans just can kill easier and faster than freeza, this and sans having higher reactions to dodge freeza's attacks and having a way to just make freeza get hit, aka teleporting freeza himself into the attacks, this an also the gaster balster being even faster than sans himself and freeza in this instance since speed is equalized

CryoTheMayo said:
Speed is equalized freeza wouldn't just use an extremely big machine gun when he senses sans is literally weak as hell
He is going to follow up immediately after Sans dodges (he can sense Ki and clearly see that Sans dodged) and then will resume firing, growing more annoyed each time Sans manages to dodge and causing him to be more destructive.
Click to expand...
this is assuming he is going to live this long and that sans wouldn't just attack back + teleport freeza into the attacks + teleport freeza's attacks away from him

CryoTheMayo said:
Not the first move so figth will be over before that happens, sans will teleport out of the explosions since its thought based
This seems like headcanon. Can you cite Sans ever doing something like that?
Click to expand...
something like what?

CryoTheMayo said:
Sans lifting isn't supposed to damage freeza it is just supposed to make it harder to dodge the insane danmaku and remember sans after slamming down will use all his danmaku at the same time and since freeza has no idea what is going on will be caught surprise
Pardon? Why would Freeza be surprised? He's a telekinetic in a world of energy blast spamming aliens (some of which are also telekinetics) and he also knows fighters like Goku who canonically use their power in hidden bursts (like against the Ginyu Force). If anything he's going to react (like he would against any telekinetic projectile spammer in his world) and fight back. And Freeza being lifted around with telekinesis? Yeah, that's going to enrage him very very fast. Especially if that's after Sans dodges his death beam barrage.
Click to expand...
shown me anyone in db that can slam you down, teleport and trow numerous projectiles, all with seconds of difference, and consecutively

CryoTheMayo said:
Not the first move again
And? Did I argue it was first move? Sans himself is going to have a very hard (if not impossible) time killing Freeza on first move, giving Freeza more of a chance to get pissed and use Telekinesis (or even just a Kiai).
Click to expand...
why would he need to? the moment of his attacks hit he is going to damage freeza's soul and poison it with KR, and then combined with the other dozens he trows at the same time, it is not likely that freeza lives long enough to get mad

CryoTheMayo said:
Sans is literally the word of burst firepower he hits you in everyframe and gives poison damage someone like frisk who resist soul manip and has insane durability was getting killed by sans extremely fast and think what it would to do someone without any of that
You are misunderstanding. Burst Damage isn't the same as DoT damage. A lot of the damage coming from Sans here is from the damage over time effects he has, his actual raw damage isn't as high. That is, Sans doesn't do much damage upfront but he does a lot of damage over time.
Click to expand...
it is both, he ignores durability and ads poison effect to the soul, to a being who resists soul manipulation attacks in the first place, freeza would fall even easier, within seconds of being in sans's attacks


CryoTheMayo said:
Thats just fanon and is not accepted even if I agree it makes so much more sense and is just really cool.

That isn't fanon, that's questioning how these two verses are meant to be equalised. Are UT souls drastically different from DB souls? Why doesn't the logic of UT souls apply to DB souls when we are verse equalised? If being violent inherently makes you harder to kill by monsters in UT, why wouldn't a super evil mass murderer like Freeza inherently be harder to kill with his evil soul?
Click to expand...
since sans does not care about that at all, he straight up ignores your stats
CryoTheMayo said:
If you argue Freeza doesn't have ridiculous LOVE giving him greater HP against Sans, then how can Sans interact with Freeza's soul and damage it when Freeza's soul doesn't even function like one in UT?

Equalisation goes both ways.
Click to expand...
the max LOVE in undertale is 20, so if you want to equalize that is how much freeza would have
 
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