Sans vs Goku

[FateAlbane]

We never said goku would be one shot by karma. It would still work but it wouldn't one shot. IT wouldn't be very affective as it requires focus which sans could disrupt with a variety of attack. Sans telepoting goku into attacks could surprise him. Soul manipulation also negates durability to an extent. etc.

Wrong. Goku can use IT mid battle very well, he did it against Cell, spammed it against Beerus, and used again against Black and Zamasu. Goku is very good at using IT during a fight. Karma wouldn't work enough to give Sans the win. And it doesn't matter that he has some dura negation when his AP is not worth that much without KR to Oneshot.

And if killing stuff for food is a sin/being evil, we might as well call literally all the lifeforms in the planet pure and absolute evil as animals have to kill others for food as well and plants also have lives. I mean, it's a sin to kill something in order to live rather than slowly dying because you aren't eating anything.

 

[AquaWaifu]

We never said goku would be one shot by karma. It would still work but it wouldn't one shot. IT wouldn't be very affective as it requires focus which sans could disrupt with a variety of attack. Sans telepoting goku into attacks could surprise him. Soul manipulation also negates durability to an extent. etc.

Wrong. Goku can use IT mid battle very well, he did it against Cell, spammed it against Beerus, and used again against Black and Zamasu. Goku is very good at using IT during a fight. Karma wouldn't work enough to give Sans the win. And it doesn't matter that he has some dura negation when his AP is not worth that much without KR to Oneshot.
And if killing stuff for food is a sin/being evil, we might as well call literally all the lifeforms in the planet pure and absolute evil as animals have to kill others for food as well and plants also have lives. I mean, it's a sin to kill something in order to live rather than slowly dying because you aren't eating anything.

it isnt a sin by real life standards, well most anyway this going by what we know about KR in Undertale.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Isn't KR just that purple poison effect anyway?

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Isn't KR just that purple poison effect anyway?

Yes, sans still negates a large amount of durability even without it.

 

[FateAlbane]

Sorry, but wrong again. KR is literally the only reason this debate is even happening. Sans AP without KR is pretty much null against Goku. Unless you tell me he'll be killing Goku with Wall Lvl Ap or something.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Isn't KR just that purple poison effect anyway?

Yes, sans still negates a large amount of durability even without it.

So, I think it would probably be like I said before, Sans negates durability, Goku is powerful enough to one-shot and speed is equal, it could go anywhere.

 

[FateAlbane]

His durability negation only matters if KR hits hard enough, which won't be the case for Goku.

Without KR, Sans AP < even Monster Kid.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Sorry, but wrong again. KR is literally the only reason this debate is even happening. Sans AP without KR is pretty much null against Goku. Unless you tell me he'll be killing Goku with Wall Lvl Ap or something.

Nope. Sans ignores invincibility frames even without KR. No other character in UT does that. This is a fact that we can't ignore. If you want to debate how it does this please go to this thread. [[1]]

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I'll debate more tommorow.

 

[FateAlbane]

Sorry, but Sans without KR has Wall Lvl Ap. It doesn't matter at all how much he ignores durability, he will still be a character trying to beat a Universal attacking with wall power. Even if his attacks fully connect (assuming no KR bonus), it really wouldn't matter because that's like trying to bust the universe by busting the equivalent of the Universe's size, one "wall" at a time.

And, considering Goku's very low kill count coupled with the fact that he's nowhere near evil, Sans is not getting enough of a boost from KR to oneshot him or to decisively win the match. At all.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

@Fate even if we are arguing for different characters I can respect your opinions and admit that you are a very good debater. I look foward to debating against you some more tomorrow.

 

[AquaWaifu]

His durability negation only matters if KR hits hard enough, which won't be the case for Goku.
Without KR, Sans AP < even Monster Kid.

this is wrong cause the menu attacks San do to you in-game DO NOT cause KR (no purple on your health is added) but do continous damage that ignore INV frames.

 

[FateAlbane]

Sure thing! After all, this is for fun. So, same here!

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Sans phases bones into the opponent. That's the explanation I've heard since Sans was introduced to VsBattles. Sans is honestly a mess to deal with

 

[AquaWaifu]

Sorry, but Sans without KR has Wall Lvl Ap. It doesn't matter at all how much he ignores durability, he will still be a character trying to beat a Universal attacking with wall power. Even if his attacks fully connect (assuming no KR bonus), it really wouldn't matter because that's like trying to bust the universe by busting the equivalent of the Universe's size, one "wall" at a time.
And, considering Goku's very low kill count coupled with the fact that he's nowhere near evil, Sans is not getting enough of a boost from KR to oneshot him or to decisively win the match. At all.

I would aruge being evil has nothing to do with it, as even if you kill just ONE thing in Undertale Sans will STILL judge you, he may not fight you but he will judge you. Though I will say this stance of mine is certainly debateable.

 

[FateAlbane]

this is wrong cause the menu attacks San do to you in-game DO NOT cause KR (no purple on your health is added) but do continous damage that ignore INV frames.

What? Yes, they do, as you can see here . Watch the battle against him again. And one way or another, you are still under KR's effect throughout the entire battle. When it comes to raw power only, Sans without KR is quite literally the weakest thing in the game.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Cal Yeah, Sans has... A lot of assumptions going for him, most of the time.

@Aquawaifu He judges you even if you don't kill anything at all. And he gives you a small lecture at most if you kill a number of enemies. That's far from proving that KR would have much of an effect against Goku.

 

[AquaWaifu]

this is wrong cause the menu attacks San do to you in-game DO NOT cause KR (no purple on your health is added) but do continous damage that ignore INV frames.

What? Yes, they do, as you can see here . Watch the battle against him again. And one way or another, you are still under KR's effect throughout the entire battle. When it comes to raw power only, Sans without KR is quite literally the weakest thing in the game.

I just did the battle myself, if you wait for the KR effect to go away, the menu attacks do not intiate KR, they only do damage, I confirmed this by moving out of their hitboxes, I immediately stopped taking damage the bones that go across Fight Act item and Mercy do not put KR onto your health bar.

 

[Jesterofgames]

Small thing but The gaster blasters in the sans fight

(last i checked)

specifically the ones at the end

DO not cause KR ether

in fact

him slaming frisk/chara around doesn't cause KR

 

[AquaWaifu]

Small thing but The gaster blasters in the sans fight
(last i checked)

specifically the ones at the end

DO not cause KR ether

in fact

him slaming frisk/chara around doesn't cause KR

Correct. Now I will stand that though i think Goku could over time adapt to being telported into attacks by Sans, (which would also change his visual perception, imagine running towards a guy then to suddenly find yourself 30 feet away facing to the right and now having his attacks coming right toward you from several different angles, and this is done repeatedly) I dont think he could deal with such a thing instantly, It took him time to focus on an enemy's techinque and how they use it on him before he could properly counter it.


I will argue that since Sans can easily teleport himself, others and his attacks, he could avoid harm and put Goku into danger's way. I feel that the constant teleporting from someone else would put Goku into at least intially a state of confusion.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Aquawaifu I'm reeeally not buying that when the video I actually linked to you shows otherwise. Unless you show me a video where the menu bones don't actually give KR damage, that's not going to fly. I provided proof that they do KR damage as well. If you want to prove your point, give me your proof.

And one way or another, I lost count of how many times I told you guys that during the entire fight Chara is under KR's effect anyways (he's evil, killed a ton of people, yada yada, feels sins crawling on his/her back even when no bone is hitting...). And I also lost count of how many times I said that it doesn't matter how much Sans ignores durability, he still has Wall Lvl Ap at most without KR bonus damage.

He has 1 ATK and that's less than even Monster Kid as far as I remember. Since MANY characters from Undertale get scalling from their stats and since Sans is even said to be the easiest in the game (of course, when it comes to Raw power), saying that Sans attacks without KR damage bonus are multiversal is just silly.

 

[FateAlbane]

And Sans is the one more screwed in this match, really. The only person he was ever shown fighting is a kid who can run at him and swing a knife once, then wait while he does a multitude of attacks. How is Sans dealing with a master fighter who does not have to wait while he attacks, who has AOE attacks, can teleport as well, is as fast as himself for this match, and can counter pretty much all the things he can throw at him?

People saying "Goku will take time to adapt" when Sans has literally no combat experience against someone who would fight him like Goku. Unless you tell me Chara swinging a knife once equal Goku's entire set of powers, abilities and experience as a fighter. And I've never seen Sans teleporting his attacks. As Cal pointed out, all he ever does in batte is teleporting people in his setups. Goku would not be dumb enough to just stay put when he'll have the same reactions.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

This thread is almost insulting.

 

[LuciferSPN]

This thread is almost insulting.

you have point,it's pain to read.Just close it and do us most favor

 

[FateAlbane]

Tbh, I think this thread is a stomp for Goku. Sans without KR can't really do much to win here. The only reason it's even going this far is because the KR wank is real.

 

[AquaWaifu]

And Sans is the one more screwed in this match, really. The only person he was ever shown fighting is a kid who can run at him and swing a knife once, then wait while he does a multitude of attacks. How is Sans dealing with a master fighter who does not have to wait while he attacks, who has AOE attacks, can teleport as well, is as fast as himself for this match, and can counter pretty much all the things he can throw at him?
People saying "Goku will take time to adapt" when Sans has literally no combat experience against someone who would fight him like Goku. Unless you tell me Chara swinging a knife once equal Goku's entire set of powers, abilities and experience as a fighter. And I've never seen Sans teleporting his attacks. As Cal pointed out, all he ever does in batte is teleporting people in his setups. Goku would not be dumb enough to just stay put when he'll have the same reactions.

the wait part is gameplay mechanic, swinging once....is clearly a gameplay mechanic unless you think in Final Fantasy monsters and parties ACTUALLY take turns hitting each other.


Undertale is basically a turn based rpg. And San's own page on this website states he can teleport his attacks, its under abilities in describing his spatial manipulation I believe.


Goku has also never fought anyone like Sans, and Goku has never had to deal with someone else teleporting him around. Teleporting as well for Goku takes concentration.


oh and the menu attacks not doing KR damage...go look at any video where those attacks hit, for KR moves the purple part gets BIGGER, but for the menu attacks the purple just simply moves down the Hp bar without increasing in size. I cant give you proof myself since what you're asking for is quite specific but if you look back at your own video you gave me, you will find under close inspection they do not give out KR/poison.


I gotta say I am enjoying this debate though.

 

[FateAlbane]

@AquaWaifu My...

For one, the effect of ignoring invincibility frames is also part of KR. The Undertale wikia admits that as well. And sorry, but the "game mechanics" thing is really a problem with UT at times, especially when they do so much meta-gaming in the series.

Usually when UT has something that would give them an advantage, people will say it's NOT game mechanics. When it's a disadvantage, then they say otherwise. But it really doesn't matter in the long run, because even if we assume Game Mechanics, speed equalized will dictate that Goku can take the same ammount of action as Sans. He won't be doing a single attack while Sans does like a hundred of them (which is what happens in the game).

I already replied above that IT does not require concentration and Goku can spam it mid-battle.

 

[AquaWaifu]

@AquaWaifu My...
For one, the effect of ignoring invincibility frames is also part of KR. The Undertale wikia admits that as well. And sorry, but the "game mechanics" thing is really a problem with UT at times, especially when they do so much meta-gaming in the series.

Usually when UT has something that would give them an advantage, people will say it's NOT game mechanics. When it's a disadvantage, then they say otherwise. But it really doesn't matter in the long run, because even if we assume Game Mechanics, speed equalized will dictate that Goku can take the same ammount of action as Sans. He won't be doing a single attack while Sans does like a hundred of them (which is what happens in the game).

I already replied above that IT does not require concentration and Goku can spam it mid-battle.

Yes it does, its stated all over the place that the move requires focus. it requires what is basically life signature or well ki but this verse equalization, so he cant really use to it to dodge here, I mean he could if by dodging also put him next to Sans, Also Sans is pretty damn smart, he's gonna catch on when he sees Goku spamming IT and trying to sneak attack him. I could see Sans even using Goku's use of IT to his dvantage knowing eventually that he always IT right next to him.


Hell Cell in his fight with Goku said he would be expecting it, so since Sans is speed equalized here with Goku it likely isnt going to work after a few uses. Sans can teleport away from a sneak attack and even AoEs

 

[FateAlbane]

Let me put this on simple terms: If Goku killed people like, say, Chara or Beerus, Sans would one shot him.

Now, without KR on his side, Goku can take many (and I do mean, a lot) of Sans attacks head on and they really won't matter much, while Sans is dead the moment Goku hits him once. And Goku can focus mid-battle for IT, otherwise he wouldn't spam teleportation in his battle against Beerus. You can't argue that he needs to concentrate and won't be able to do so in a battle when he has done so time and again despite fighting opponents that were actually stronger than him.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

KR is based on "sins", which amounts to EXP and LOVE. Not even going to bother explaining what those are, because everyone should know.

Chara killed a great number of innocent monsters just because they could, and because the Player did so with them. Thus their KR damage was incredibly high.

Beerus commits genocide for his job. His potential KR would be incredibly high.

Goku has killed like several people, all of whom were really bad, and it was done for the good of others, as well. Where the hell would this immense amount of KR damage come from, for him?

 

[AquaWaifu]

Let me put this on simple terms: If Goku killed people like, say, Chara or Beerus, Sans would one shot him.
Now, without KR on his side, Goku can take many (and I do mean, a lot) of Sans attacks head on and they really won't matter much, while Sans is dead the moment Goku hits him once. And Goku can focus mid-battle for IT, otherwise he wouldn't spam teleportation in his battle against Beerus. You can't argue that he needs to concentrate and won't be able to do so in a battle when he has done so time and again despite fighting opponents that were actually stronger than him.

All those times he spammed it during Beerus, Goku was not dealing with dodging attacks combined with gravity and soul manipulation. It was during times where there were no attacks being thrown out at him.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Azathoth Yeah, Goku's actual kill count (the canon ones) is really small, at eleven people/monsters who really deserved it. Frieza, Tambourine, Drum, King Picollo... And that's counting even Gohan, that he killed by accident and Tao, who survived and became a cyborg. The RR army, most of them escaped or were just KO'ed. So Goku's actual kill count is ridiculously small. Sans can't do much to him.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I'm closing this as this is going in circles... Azzy can reopen it if he so wishes.