Sans vs Asgore

[Duy9161]

Again. Asgore would have dodged chara/frisk if he could. HIs ability to dodge is hinted at. but that is against undyne who has a much easier battle than asgore and sans. As well Undyne was less experienced then than she is now so it was THAT much easier to do so.


Put simply. asgore won't be able to dodge sans's attacks. But sans has plenty of hax and teleporting that would let him do so in return.

Asgore wouldn't be able to dodge all of Sans attack, but it is obvious that he is gonna dodge a lot of them. There is no reason to think Asgore will stand there and receive damage non-stop. He will most certainly try to dodge and succeed at least some of the time. Say he will only be hit for 70 percent of his turn, that means that Sans will effectively need to make his battle 30 percent longer. And that is a very generous estimate.

Let's not forget that the bulk of Sans' attacks are far, far easier to dodge than his beginning and ending attacks. Yes, slip-ups are incredibly fatal. For someone with a paltry 92HP. Asgore can take those slip-ups with relatively little consequences.

But let's look at this from another perspective.

The fallen human, in the best case scenario, has 8 healing items in their inventory in their fight with Sans, which are the Pie, the Instant Noodle, the Face Steak, 3x Snowman Pieces and 2x Legendary Heroes. All of those items would tally up to 549HP. Asgore has 6.4 times that amount.

Guys, guys, can we please just imagine your first ever time fighting Sans, but with over six times the number of healing items? And what's more, this time those items automatically use themselves in the middle of battle. No need to wait until your turn ends, no need to ration your items so as not to waste the amount of HP recovered, NO NEED TO DIE UNTIL YOUR INVENTORY IS COMPLETELY EMPTY.

Oh, and, you can fire hundreds of fireballs in every directions at Sans. Really shouldn't forget that.

 

[Otomos]

He can easily teleport/tunnel away. Also, Frisk/Chara can dodge some of Asgore's attacks, and Asgore relies on blue/orange attacks, which Sans knows in and out. So many of Asgore's attacks he doesn't eeven have to put much effort to dodge, and he can teleport away from the rest of them.

As I have said before. Asgore's attacks are much more complicated for Sans to dodge. There is also a problem with your argument that Sans could just teleport away from the attacks. Here's the problem, though. They're fighting, and in-universe there's not many places for him to teleport off to in the middle of a battle. At most, he's only been shown to move small distances away. He'd still be on the screen, and with Asgore's barrage of fire magic (that has been shown to spread out across the entire screen in two different ways, by the way), no teleportation that Sans does would be able to allow him to survive.

 

[MegalovaniaBonetrousle]

Sans can hide behind a pillar. Easy. Also, Range on Gaster Blasters is at least as far as Asgore's fire magic, plus gaster blaster spam could be a thing.

 

[Otomos]

Sans can hide behind a pillar. Easy. Also, Range on Gaster Blasters is at least as far as Asgore's fire magic, plus gaster blaster spam could be a thing.

Okay, so now we're no longer doing fight mechanics? Even when the in-game fights are canonically the way they are to player, and have absolutely no pillars for him to hide behind regardless of where the fight began in? Not only that, we're going to assume that the place has pillars and/or anything else to hide behind, even though there is no particular area or arena that was mentioned for where this battle would take place?

No one let me in on that info.

Still doesn't change a thing, considering that his fire magic acts just like Sans' Gaster Blaster beams, and can go through the walls of whatever the heck would have been the bounds of Frisk's Soul. Even then, I'm curious why you think

Seriously, you're going to go so far as to go completely outside the rules of their universe just to make an argument? And this isn't some clever manipulation done by the characters, like when Asgore breaks the MERCY option, or Sans' bones jump in and out at the Frisk's SOUL if they take too long to make a decision in the fight. No, this is you completely taking them out of the battle mode of their universe.

 

[MegalovaniaBonetrousle]

Ok. Forget hiding behind something. But this battle is in Judgement Hall, where there are arches/pillars. Gaster Blaster spam is a viable tool for Sans.

 

[Duy9161]

Sans can hide behind a pillar. Easy. Also, Range on Gaster Blasters is at least as far as Asgore's fire magic, plus gaster blaster spam could be a thing.

Those fireballs curve their flight paths, buddy. And, I'm cheating a little here, but if Asgore's magic is anything like Toriel's, they can swerve of their own accord mid-flight too.

And are we forgetting something here? Spamming Gaster Blaster is extremely tiring and inefficient. Even if multiple Gaster Blaster rays are hitting you you'd still be receiving the same amount of damage. Sans will tire himself out way before Asgore gets to the 3/4 HP mark.

And then we get to the range issue. The problem with Gaster Blasters from further distances would be aiming. The further away one is, the easier it is to dodge. Think back to the time in Sans' fight where he repeatedly summon multiple Blasters from outside the battle box. The further away you are from one when it shows up, the easier to just side step them. And you can't change their orientation when they've been summoned either, i.e you can't use them as your turrets. They are locked in the direction they were facing when they were summoned and need to be re-summoned to aim at a different direction.

 

[MegalovaniaBonetrousle]

Okay. Asgore is merciful, that is one thing. He therefore gets dunked on. And if he doesn't give mercy, he still can't kill Sans, who can dodge while sleeping, and was only defeated because Chara broke the game.

 

[Duy9161]

Not only that, we're going to assume that the place has pillars and/or anything else to hide behind, even though there is no particular area or arena that was mentioned for where this battle would take place?

No one let me in on that info.

Actually, it was stated at the beginning that the fight takes place in that hallway.

 

[Otomos]

Ok. Forget hiding behind something. But this battle is in Judgement Hall, where there are arches/pillars. Gaster Blaster spam is a viable tool for Sans.

Okay, I read the first post again, so now I can agree and admit that I made a mistake with that part.

Still, what do you mean by "Gaster Blaster spam"? Do you he could constantly use them? If so, then I agree, but the problem with that is that he can only use a certain amount of them at a time, and can't use them in the exact same way as Flowey does with his bullets (that is to say, he can't have an unavoidable circle of gaster blasters appear all at once to take out his opponent). Not only that, the beams only last a small amount of time, and the blasters themselves take a moment to appear, stop into one spot, and shoot, which would give Asgore time to get out of the the way, and see the next ones coming.

 

[MegalovaniaBonetrousle]

Sans does use an almost inescapable ring of gaster blasters at the end of his battle, most people die to it a few times when they first encounter it. And there is also that whole first attack, which should also do devastating damage.

 

[Duy9161]

devastating damage.

No no no no no. Negligible, yes. Devastating, no.

Do the math.

 

[Otomos]

Sans does use an almost inescapable ring of gaster blasters at the end of his battle, most people die to it a few times when they first encounter it. And there is also that whole first attack, which should also do devastating damage.

Yeah...That ring thing, that's what i was talking about. Mainly because it's not "almost inescapable", since there's only a little less than half of the box for the player to use to dodge it, and fading lasers seem to be perfectly safe to touch.

Sans' initial attack...can do some damage, but again, Asgore can dodge some of it, and honestly it's not as impressive as you keep making it.

 

[MegalovaniaBonetrousle]

Most people die to both the first attack and the ring attack. They would do some good damage to Asgore, and he can't heal that domage back with items like Chara can. So the first attacks while Asgore is getting used to the way Sans rolls, the random attacks in the middle, and the last two or three attacks should cumulatively be able to kill him.

 

[Otomos]

Most people die to both the first attack and the ring attack. They would do some good damage to Asgore, and he can't heal that domage back with items like Chara can. So the first attacks while Asgore is getting used to the way Sans rolls, the random attacks in the middle, and the last two or three attacks should cumulatively be able to kill him.

That's with the assumption that Sans would survive any of Asgore's attacks.

 

[Duy9161]

Most people die to both the first attack and the ring attack. They would do some good damage to Asgore, and he can't heal that domage back with items like Chara can. So the first attacks while Asgore is getting used to the way Sans rolls, the random attacks in the middle, and the last two or three attacks should cumulatively be able to kill him.

Oh Lord. Why do I even bother.

Ok. Maybe a video of someone surviving Sans' fight but with HP hacked to 3500, coupled with no input from the player whatsoever should do it then.

 

[Duy9161]

I just did a trial run of the fight, in which I set the game to Debug mode, set my HP to 999 every time there's only about 40 or 50 left (by pressing Delete), and didn't move whatsoever. I ended up with 367 HP left, and having to press Delete only four times (which means that Sans depleted about (999*4)-367-(40*3)=3509 HP).

I don't know about you, but this means Sans is definitely dead. Asgore is not going to just stand there and take it from Boned Dude like I did. There were rows and rows of bones that I could have easily jump over. In any realistic fight, Asgore is probably going to be left with at least about 1000 HP, and Sans completely exhausted. And that is IF we completely ignore his speed, combat prowess, relatively heightened willingness to kill, possible HAXes up his sleeves and training.

 

[MegalovaniaBonetrousle]

I just did a trial run of the fight, in which I set the game to Debug mode, set my HP to 999 every time there's only about 40 or 50 left (by pressing Delete), and didn't move whatsoever. I ended up with 367 HP left, and having to press Delete only four times.
I don't know about you, but this means Sans is definitely dead. Asgore is not going to just stand there and take it from Boned Dude like I did. There were rows and rows of bones that I could have easily jump over. In any realistic fight, Asgore is probably going to be left with at least about 1000 HP, and Sans completely exhausted. And that is IF we completely ignore his speed, combat prowess, relatively heightened willingness to kill, possible HAXes up his sleeves and training.

Two things. One, are you ignoring those factors for Sans or Asgore, and two, that expiriment is best done on a player who knows the undertale combat system but has not experienced the Sans fight.

 

[Duy9161]

I just did a trial run of the fight, in which I set the game to Debug mode, set my HP to 999 every time there's only about 40 or 50 left (by pressing Delete), and didn't move whatsoever. I ended up with 367 HP left, and having to press Delete only four times.
I don't know about you, but this means Sans is definitely dead. Asgore is not going to just stand there and take it from Boned Dude like I did. There were rows and rows of bones that I could have easily jump over. In any realistic fight, Asgore is probably going to be left with at least about 1000 HP, and Sans completely exhausted. And that is IF we completely ignore his speed, combat prowess, relatively heightened willingness to kill, possible HAXes up his sleeves and training.

Two things. One, are you ignoring those factors for Sans or Asgore, and two, that expiriment is best done on .

Yes. It was done as a sort of "worst case scenario" situation, and I completely ignored those factors for Asgore because there was no way of simulating such abilities in-game, effectively crippling him. Since I did not press any arrow keys whatsoever, it is a safe guess that a player who knows the Undertale combat system but has not experienced the Sans fight would do much better than I did. With our lack of a willing and eligible test player, this is the best we'll ever have. And I think it is pretty solid proof.

It is like they say, it can only go downhill from this point on for Sans.

 

[MegalovaniaBonetrousle]

An average person dies on the first attack to Sans with 92 health, averaging that means it would take 38 attacks to kill Asgore. Sans has 50.

 

[Duy9161]

An average person dies on the first attack to Sans with 92 health, averaging that means it would take 38 attacks to kill Asgore. Sans has 50.

Sorry but it is quite clear that if Sans went all out and didn't space himself out he would get himself exhausted much earlier.

And how did you come up with 50?

 

[Typhlosion130]

again. asgore would not dodge sans' insane attack pattern. and sans is the only person in game shown able to dodge the human.

If you really want to factor asgore doding into this. it would be minimaly effective at best.

Sans's attack pattern is cruel unforgiving and fast killing.

Asgore can't win.

 

[Otomos]

again. asgore would not dodge sans' insane attack pattern. and sans is the only person in game shown able to dodge the human.
If you really want to factor asgore doding into this. it would be minimaly effective at best.

Sans's attack pattern is cruel unforgiving and fast killing.

Asgore can't win.

In-game, he's been said to be able to dodge. So much so that he needed to teach someone on how to knock him down.

Sans' attack pattern is unforgiving, but fast-killing is not exactly something I'd call it, when someone has a lot more health than what Sans faces in-game. Not only that, Asgore's two of his fire magic attacks spread out across the entire screen, so Sans would have nowhere to dodge. Sans only has 1 hp, so getting hit AT ALL will mean he loses.

 

[MegalovaniaBonetrousle]

Sans has more than 1 hp. He has one DEF, but that does not lead to 1 hp, as the monsters in the ruins show.

 

[Otomos]

Sans has more than 1 hp. He has one DEF, but that does not lead to 1 hp, as the monsters in the ruins show.

His in-game files say that he has 1 HP.

 

[Duy9161]

again. asgore would not dodge sans' insane attack pattern. and sans is the only person in game shown able to dodge the human.

If you really want to factor asgore doding into this. it would be minimaly effective at best.

Sans's attack pattern is cruel unforgiving and fast killing.

Asgore can't win.

I think I did an excellent job showing how Asgore would survive until Sans' exhaustion, even if he stood as still as a statue.

Not that I think the rest of your arguments were actually arguments in any way, shape or form either.

 

[Duy9161]

Sans has more than 1 hp. He has one DEF, but that does not lead to 1 hp, as the monsters in the ruins show.

Then how many does he have? 10 millions? 100 thousand? 10 thousand?

You know what. I'll just email Toby Fox himself and see if he will conclusively put this fallacy to rest.

 

[MegalovaniaBonetrousle]

Okay, do that. But it was never stated that defense is equal to hp.

 

[Otomos]

Okay, do that. But it was never stated that defense is equal to hp.

Who said anything about DEF being equal to HP? No one said that. No one even came close to saying that.

 

[Duy9161]

Okay, do that. But it was never stated that defense is equal to hp.

No one did. The table left in the game file that listed the HP, AT and DF of every monster in-game specifically stated that his Max HP is 1.

 

[Duy9161]

Who said anything about DEF being equal to HP? No one said that. No one even came close to saying that.

It's a myth perpetuated on that Amino thingy.

Yes. I know. Me too. Amino!

 

[MegalovaniaBonetrousle]

OK. Didn't know about the game files. But the question is really can Asgore hit sans?

 

[Duy9161]

OK. Didn't know about the game files. But the question is really can Asgore hit sans?

No no no. The question is why can't he.

 

[Otomos]

OK. Didn't know about the game files. But the question is really can Asgore hit sans?

Yes...We've been saying that, and adding evidence for it, for the past few days.

 

[MegalovaniaBonetrousle]

Sans can easily dodge, and is the only monster who actually dodges, and much better than Asgore can.

 

[Duy9161]

and much better than Asgore can.

purely conjecture

 

[MegalovaniaBonetrousle]

Sans dodged every attack from Chara, who is much faster than Frisk, who Asgore didn't dodge a single blow from.

 

[Otomos]

Sans can easily dodge, and is the only monster who actually dodges, and much better than Asgore can.

Yes, I agree. Sans can easily dodge...a single knife slash. I mean, what's the difference between a slash that takes up an extremely small portion of the screen, and a fire spell that spreads a bullet hell across the entire screen, amiright?

 

[Duy9161]

Sans dodged every attack from Chara, who is much faster than Frisk, who Asgore didn't dodge a single blow from.

Which is only applicable as conclusive proof that Mr. Sex Symbol can dodge much better than Asgore if you ignore basically half of the game's lore.

 

[MegalovaniaBonetrousle]

What part?

 

[Otomos]

Sans dodged every attack from Chara, who is much faster than Frisk, who Asgore didn't dodge a single blow from.

You're joking. You have to be.

Okay, here's the thing about your comparison, other than the part where a knife and fire magic are completely different: Asgore was holding back, the entire fight. He gave Frisk a fighting chance, as evidenced by the fact that he doesn't look up at Frisk, and his refusal to finish them off until they had 1 HP. Even in his profile on this site, it was made known that he was holding back the entire time.